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Lucas: Madman or Genius?

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We've all debated what on earth happened to Lucas. In 1999, I went from idolizing to resenting him in about a week's timeframe (funnily enough, around the time Episode I came out). I wanted to offer three different takes one what on earth happened and hear everyone's input again.

1) Pride/Greed - George basically went downhill. He either wanted to milk his cash cow and so re-marketed his old stuff, or just lost touch and wouldn't listen to input, advice, or view his works critically, thinking he was untouchable. These seem to be the most common views.

2) Well meaning, but lost his genius: as a music writer, I'm familiar with this phenomenon. Sometimes you write part of a song, and it just WORKS. It flows, it's great, you have a vision. But trying to complete it, suddenly it just doesn't work anymore. Perhaps he really is trying, and for some reason what flowed and jibed before just isn't coming anymore. This seems to be at odds with what he says in interviews about the quality of his work, but maybe he just wants to put the best face on it.

3) Utter genius: I find this theory the most interesting. ANH was different from eps 5 and 6. The script was a little simpler, the plot was a little more fairy tale-ish, the whole thing was more campy, lower budget, and so forth. In the CONTEXT of 5 and 6, though, 4 becomes a real masterpiece. Not just enjoyable and great, but truly respectable in other ways. In a similar way, I at least enjoyed TPM much more in the context of AOTC, it gave it context and substance and purpose. Perhaps episode 3 and these changes to the OT are all part of a master plan that needs to be completed before it makes sense. Perhaps the SE releases and changes were all part of this larger plan that we can't appreciate until it is done and can see the whole thing.

I held onto that hope for a long time, but it is waning. I don't see how certain changes can fit into a whole, but I haven't seen the projected 2007 version of all 6 films yet.

Anyone holding out hope? Any idea what caused this change in what used to be a beloved man to all of us?
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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I opt for #1, but I think #2 plays a pretty big part in it as well. I do think he may have been well intentioned, but he just didn't consider his fans. The people that made him who he is.
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I don't think any of those reasons are 'right on the money' so to speak. I tend to look at this like a kid with a new toy. I just watched the Making of Jurasic Park and what they did with CGI and models. It's trully remarkable what Speilberg pulled off. I think that Lucas was just taking the next logical step but he took it too far. The over saturation of CGI in TPM and AOTC has taken the place of a good story with good acting. Granted, I've never thought that any of the Star Wars films were masterpieces in acting, but compared to the prequals, the original trilogy is hands down better acted and a better told story.

I also do believe that reasons #1 and #2 both are playing a big factor in all of this.

I'm still holding out hope that ROTS will bring the prequals to a great finish and in the end it may all make sense.
Keeping The Star Wars Hoiliday Special alive. Once person at a time. Stir, stir, whip, whip, stir, beat, beat.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think Lucas fell in love with himself and has cracked. Just my gut feelling.
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I think he was an excellent film-maker, who made one of the greatest film trilogies of all time on a very modest budget and did a GREAT job! (obviously)

Then he got cocky, and decided to try to "improve" his old films. This turned out to be disaster for us fans. The whole aspect of hard earnest work was ruined by adding computerized BS all over them. Bad, bad, bad, bad move. Bad bad bad bad!!!

Episode I was actually pretty good, IMHO. Not as good as the OT obviously, but it wasn't as horrid as many make it out to be.
Episode II went downhill. I didn't really like it much. It is the least of the Star Wars films yet far.

2004 DVD Special Total BS Edition: To this I say, WTF?!?!?!?!???! Horrid changes to even further SCREW the original films, ala '97 SE. Worse, worse, worse, worse, worse!!!! Bad bad bad bad!!!!!

Episode III: Let me just say this... I hope for Star Wars to end on a good note. I think I won't be let down in that respect, at least not by Revenge of the Sith.

Any further BS afterward (Such as TV shows, TV movies, channels, misc. other crap): Probably won't be good. At all.




So yes... he *was* excellent, but then he... lost it.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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I'll tell you what I think, but you won't like the answer. I quite enjoy the prequels, they're on a completely different level but they're enjoyable films. Lucas is an idiot, he always has been and he always will be. It's all one big joke for him. He's retained rights to "his own films" a feat most writer/director's never achieve. He whines about "only having US$20,000,000" for Star Wars. He thinks he's fixing the films, making them right - he thinks it what he always wanted - but then how much do we change over the years? He may as well be Andy Kaufman. He's lost his touch with reality. No matter how seriously we take his movies - he takes them just as seriously. The sad difference is his obsessiveness and blatant idiocy. He really has no idea how stupid his obsessions are. He lies to us to try and maintain a steady image. He sells us shit. He has no idea what he's doing, he never has.

I watched Attack of the Clones a few days ago, though I enjoyed it I must say I actually PREFER the old sabre effects. They're imperfect, more true-to-life. They have a certain charm to them that is absent in the more perfectly uniform ones.
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What are you talking about? I dig your answer. So it's none of the above. Like number 2 he's trying his best, but like number 1 he doesn't even know how he's doing? I can definitely see that. And I agree that he definitely cares. He just doesn't care about the star wars universe, he cares about pioneering and stuff. Which is why those of us who focus on the SW universe don't appreciate all the stuff he IS doing. Makes sense.

Anyway, I also agree with you on the lightsaber dueling. The old effects and stuff. And I think the dialogue between Vader and Obi or Vader and Luke make for a much more epic confrontation than the athleticism of the fight. Just another reason the old duels move me more than the new ones.
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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See, there are a lot of people that want to see the O-OT released for different reasons, and some are not as good as others - but so long as they want it released I'll support them. For me it's about the film's integrity. You can make a director's cut. Apocalypse Now, The Exorcist, Alien, Blade Runner, Robocop, Scream, .. I don't even know why I talk about director's cuts since Lucas isn't the director for Empire and Jedi just going to show how mad he's really become. Original material is fine; but when you insert new footage or effects that is not fine. That is for all intents and purposes shooting a new movie.
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Now that you mention that I'm wondering what the director's of Emprie and Jedi think of the whole Special Editon thing.

“You know, when you think about it, the Ewoks probably just crap over the sides of their tree-huts.”

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AFAIK, Kershner said he doesn't mind most of the changes, and it would probably be difficult for Marquand to have an opinion, as he's been dead for quite some time.
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I totaly forgot about that. I guess that would be hard to get an answer out of him.

“You know, when you think about it, the Ewoks probably just crap over the sides of their tree-huts.”

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When did Lucas actually get divorced? I think that episode, coupled with looking at life differently now that he has kids, may have also changed his views a lot. Spielburg has also mellowed a lot with age, and he makes different movies now.

I honestly think that George is not a good director. I think ANH is the lowest quality film of the OT, and not because the effects were more dated or anything. I just don't think George can direct. He's got a decent vision, but he needs someone else to bring it out of the actors, out of the sets, and out of the editing. The best movie of the OT is Empire, and that is because of the director. He was able to adjust, to get what he wanted, to get the best take even if it wasn't what he wanted, to allow the characters to evolve.

In my opinion, the best scene in Empire is Han being put into Carbon freeze. Leia yells to him that she loves him, and Han just looks back at her stoicly, and answers with his brief, "I know." That wasn't in the script. That was Harrison being irritated at having to redo the same take so many times, and yet still being in character, being pissy, and ad libbing something Han would actually say, and in doing so, advancing his character so much with just two words. George would never have taken that take and kept it in the movie. He'd have taken a less good one, edited it to something he wanted exactly, and the character of Han would be shallower, and less interesting. Thank God GL didn't direct Empire and Jedi. If he did, Star Wars would never have been as big as it was, I don't think.
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i'm going to make this short and sweet....

as of now Lucas is a madman... no arguments...

now if he does something other than SW....
i will take that back....
depending on the quality of that film....

all he knows is star wars now...
the guy prolly dresses up as a Taun Taun and runs around his house for all we know...
lol
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Originally posted by: Cetera
When did Lucas actually get divorced? I think that episode, coupled with looking at life differently now that he has kids, may have also changed his views a lot. Spielburg has also mellowed a lot with age, and he makes different movies now.

I honestly think that George is not a good director. I think ANH is the lowest quality film of the OT, and not because the effects were more dated or anything. I just don't think George can direct. He's got a decent vision, but he needs someone else to bring it out of the actors, out of the sets, and out of the editing. The best movie of the OT is Empire, and that is because of the director. He was able to adjust, to get what he wanted, to get the best take even if it wasn't what he wanted, to allow the characters to evolve.

In my opinion, the best scene in Empire is Han being put into Carbon freeze. Leia yells to him that she loves him, and Han just looks back at her stoicly, and answers with his brief, "I know." That wasn't in the script. That was Harrison being irritated at having to redo the same take so many times, and yet still being in character, being pissy, and ad libbing something Han would actually say, and in doing so, advancing his character so much with just two words. George would never have taken that take and kept it in the movie. He'd have taken a less good one, edited it to something he wanted exactly, and the character of Han would be shallower, and less interesting. Thank God GL didn't direct Empire and Jedi. If he did, Star Wars would never have been as big as it was, I don't think.


You seriously like Return of the Jedi more then A New Hope. A New Hope is a classic masterpeice. Its excellently acted, writen, and directed. Its a classic and it always will be. Return of the Jedi features huge plot holes, walkthrough acting, and its just plain weak in comparison.
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I agree with Cetera, he's right on the money.

George couldn't convincingly direct traffic anymore. The only reason why he was able to pull off ANH was because he was lean, hungry and still fairly fresh out of USC film school. Not to mention the fact that he had a far better director than himself, Francis Ford Coppola, looking over his shoulder and guiding and mentoring him.

Now GL listens to no man and the product speaks for itself.

George Lucas has become, in no small sense, the Palpatine.

Now secure in his power he has declared himself Emperor, and has shut himself away from the populace surrounded by yes-men assistants and assorted boot-lickers.

The only answer Rick McCallum knows begins with "Y" and ends in "es George, that's a great idea." Gary Kurtz would never have been such a toady and that's why the PT films are as bad as they are. Everyone is too afraid to tell Emperor Lucas "No".

I'd say it but then I'd be as out on my arse as Kurtz is.

McCallum is an excellent line producer, probably bar none, however he is not a creative person and is more concerned with job security than art. GL believes his own hype and can't understand why the real fans think the new films suck balls. He thinks it's just because we've grown up and expect violence and expletives from our Space Operas. I'm not going to lie to ya I enjoy a good violence-laden cussfest set in space now and then, which is why I rate Pitch Black and Riddick so highly, but it's far from what I expect from Star Wars.

I expect memorable dialogue, fantastic sets, a rich lived in galaxy with plenty of suggestions of its own history and above all plots and characters lifted from westerns and samurai films.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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My vote is genius. I don't agree with everything he does (too little screen time for Maul, too much Jar Jar, Ewoks beating stormtroopers, Greedo shooting first) but you can't deny he is one of the most imaginative filmmakers ever. His story of good versus evil in a galaxy far far away is so good. He also have helped break several technological grounds. He is a man who constantly strives to make everything as advanced as it could be. I have great respect for the man.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
You seriously like Return of the Jedi more then A New Hope. A New Hope is a classic masterpeice. Its excellently acted, writen, and directed. Its a classic and it always will be. Return of the Jedi features huge plot holes, walkthrough acting, and its just plain weak in comparison.

Yes, I seriously do. I like Empire far more than either, though. ANH is a classic, and will always be a classic. But I don't think that it was as good as it could have been. It was saved by a few very fortunate occurances. Those occurances were Alec Guiness and Peter Cushing. Without them, that movie would have been flatter than 12 day old soda. Alec Guiness brought some credibility to the role of Obi-Wan, and certainly saved the movie. He gave the movie depth. He played the wizend old man very well. He made parts serious that needed to be serious, and he helped in the creation of the journey of the lone hero. He allowed you to suspend your disbelief in the movie, because he was that good at what he did. Put almost anyone else in that role, and the movie would not have been the same. In the same manner, Peter Cushing provided that little bit of evil, sinister touch to latch onto and realize that the Empire was a cruel, evil threat. He created the Darth Vader screen presence. He was good enough at what he did that he allowed the Vader costume (and David Prowse and JEJ)to shine.

In a similar manner, Liam Neeson saved TPM. Without him, that movie would be nigh unwatchable. There is nothing else in it. He and his character advance the plot, give the movie credibility, and allow you to suspend your disbelief enough to enjoy it. Without him, you've got nothing in the movie besides effects shots and stand-ins. His acting ability allowed you to take the movie seriously.

In a similar manner, Christopher Lee anchors AOTC. There is no impending sense of danger or evil or even conflict in the movie. Its a horrible, horrible production. It is fun, it is flashy, but its got no life. The only exception is when Anakin finds his mother, and kills the Sandpeople. But if that was all that was in there, the movie would have sucked beyond sucking. However, when Obi-Wan is imprisoned, and Count Dooku comes in and interrogates him, well, that scene is monumentous. The pacing of Dooku, the questioning, the appealing, the very menace that he portrays under his illusion of goodwill and honesty. It is classic, and something that Lee worked very well in. It gave credibility to the threat. Otherwise the entire plot of the movie just looks like a lameass political stunt by Palpatine that everyone in the galaxy should see through. Lee gives the Seperatists credibility. Dooku is the embodyment of old school literature demons/devils. He's smooth, calm, charming. He's charismatic. He tells you truths so you will believe him, even as he leads you towards evil and damnation. He is a temptor. He's very much in control of the situation, and the scenes he's in. The battle with Yoda is another example, but it doesn't work quite as well. He's still very much in control of the situation, harrassing the good, doing enough to get away and fight again from the shadows later.

GL has lucked out repeatedly in his movies. Lee saved AOTC. Neeson saved TPM. Guiness saved ANH. And I'm convinced, without Guiness and Cushing in ANH, no other Star Wars movies would have ever been made. They allowed the audience to connect on a more viseral level with the film. Those actors made GL. And they did it in spite of GL. Because as you've seen, GL really can't direct for shit.

Even the best part in ANH is Luke looking into the twin sunset on Tatooine, and that scene is only memorable and has the emotional impact that it does because of John Williams' score.

And quite honestly, ANH has more plot holes than either of the other two OT movies put together. But that is beside the point.


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OK, here's the thing about George Lucas. First of all, I've seen only one non-SW movie directed by him, American Graffitti, and I enjoyed it. I've noticed that he had the actors decide how the scene would be made by themselves, you can notice that on how Richard Dreifuss acts in this movie. The writing is pretty ok but no sheakespeare. The thing is, he had a great idea, and executed it well.

For Star Wars, he had a terrible idea which slowly developed into something good. After some script re-writes, he got into something that would be interesting to see. In order to do that he had many influences that actually "worked" the script for him, Kurosawa as an example. He also had a great team and great minds working with him. In 1977 he had a visionary mind and a great criative vision.

Suddenly he becamse a multi-millionaire, and became distant to his creative mind and decided to focus on his business. He got old and lost all his experience. If you ask a 15 year old kid to tell you a story, and then ask that same person, 30 years later, to do it again, he'll not be as imaginative and creative as he used to be.

SFX, big budgets, bad luck, out of touch with today's world and a ego problem all contributed to what he is today. He might do some interesting non-SW films if he wants to, I'm sure he would do great drama films, or maybe a romantic comedy, but he has lost his touch for something as visionary and insanely creative as Star Wars is.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
OK, here's the thing about George Lucas. First of all, I've seen only one non-SW movie directed by him, American Graffitti, and I enjoyed it. I've noticed that he had the actors decide how the scene would be made by themselves, you can notice that on how Richard Dreifuss acts in this movie. The writing is pretty ok but no sheakespeare. The thing is, he had a great idea, and executed it well.

For Star Wars, he had a terrible idea which slowly developed into something good. After some script re-writes, he got into something that would be interesting to see. In order to do that he had many influences that actually "worked" the script for him, Kurosawa as an example. He also had a great team and great minds working with him. In 1977 he had a visionary mind and a great criative vision.

Suddenly he becamse a multi-millionaire, and became distant to his creative mind and decided to focus on his business. He got old and lost all his experience. If you ask a 15 year old kid to tell you a story, and then ask that same person, 30 years later, to do it again, he'll not be as imaginative and creative as he used to be.

SFX, big budgets, bad luck, out of touch with today's world and a ego problem all contributed to what he is today. He might do some interesting non-SW films if he wants to, I'm sure he would do great drama films, or maybe a romantic comedy, but he has lost his touch for something as visionary and insanely creative as Star Wars is.


If anything he is better now then ever. He is a great visionary. Was then is still great now. Star Wars was an amazing achievement that started a world wide phenomena. Star Wars was not based off any book it all came from the mind of one man.
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Couldn´t agree more with Ricarleite´s comments there. Lucas has lost his touch without doubt IMO. Once he was a rebel, willing to do creative & risky stuff that was not always politically correct or children friendly. He also had more interesting storytelling ideas, now he has to tell us everything at least twice just so the really young ones get it and there is hardly anything left for the imagination! Plus he is relying to much on CG. Hardly anything get built anymore, nothing has a human touch to it it´s all mindless and unpersonal blue/green screen computer stuff, what a shame! Back then when the old trilogy came out EVERYONE was interested in those moves too, children took their parents along and vice versa, people were so into this, people of all ages. He´s messing with a trilogy of FAR greater quality than his PT (which can only be made right with a SPECTACULAR Episode III). He´s actually adjusting his old brilliant movies which everyone knows and loves to fit better with the new ones when he should be respecting his OT and doing it vice versa, this absolutely puzzles me. Lucas is far more respected and accknowledged as a filmmaker for this original trilogy than he ever is for the PT. He must come to his senses and release the OT on DVD, it´s a part of history that MUST be preserved!

Somebody should remind Lucas of the old saying: "Don´t judge a book by it´s cover". No matter how glossy the cover is, the colours rich and how fine the paper is, it can´t hide what´s inside!

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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Originally posted by: Cetera
When did Lucas actually get divorced? I think that episode, coupled with looking at life differently now that he has kids, may have also changed his views a lot. Spielburg has also mellowed a lot with age, and he makes different movies now.

I honestly think that George is not a good director. I think ANH is the lowest quality film of the OT, and not because the effects were more dated or anything. I just don't think George can direct. He's got a decent vision, but he needs someone else to bring it out of the actors, out of the sets, and out of the editing. The best movie of the OT is Empire, and that is because of the director. He was able to adjust, to get what he wanted, to get the best take even if it wasn't what he wanted, to allow the characters to evolve.

In my opinion, the best scene in Empire is Han being put into Carbon freeze. Leia yells to him that she loves him, and Han just looks back at her stoicly, and answers with his brief, "I know." That wasn't in the script. That was Harrison being irritated at having to redo the same take so many times, and yet still being in character, being pissy, and ad libbing something Han would actually say, and in doing so, advancing his character so much with just two words.
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Acording to the docu on the Indy DVD, Lucas was going through a divorce when the were making Temple of doom, hense the reason why it's so dark.

As for the Carbon freezing scene, one, it's one of my faves too, and two, it was more of a case of Ford and Kershner redoing the whole scene, from what Fett says to what Lando says and Vader etc. According to the Making of Empire novel can't remeber what it#'s called even though I own a copy) they needed to justify why Han was in chains, and what he would say to Lando..blah blah.
Actuall this months copy of Empire magazine (nothing to do with SW, just a film mag for the UK) has a whole load of pages quoting the exact converstion between the actors and director regaing that scene. Makes great reading.

ps...I'm so wasted so forgive me if it's full of typos, and makes no sense whatssoever

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Somebody should remind Lucas of the old saying: "Don´t judge a book by it´s cover". No matter how glossy the cover is, the colours rich and how fine the paper is, it can´t hide what´s inside!


damn i just have to say that's a great line...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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I just want to interrupt for a moment to shout out to Jimbo.

I'm glad you're on this board, dude. You provide the dissent and lone voice to keep us honest. I respect 1704 posts in a community with a different mindset. Keep us thinking, man.

That said, I held out hope after TPM that Lucas was a genius and I just didn't know what was happening yet. I didn't believe it, but I held out hope.

After Clones, I lost hope. Funny how as soon as I get to "a new hope" that hope comes back. Maybe my own emotional reaction to the quality of Star Wars is supposed to mirror the emotional state of the people in the galaxy... Maybe GL is indulging in a little "outside the box" art expression...

And while I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony.
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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Starboy, you're more patient than I am with the dissenters.
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Star Wars was not based off any book it all came from the mind of one man.


Umm....that's not entirely true. Lucas borrowed from several sources for Star Wars. Westerns, old Repbulic serials, Flash Gordon serials and the plot of the film The Hidden Fortress. He just took these different elements, stirred them up and out popped Star Wars.
Keeping The Star Wars Hoiliday Special alive. Once person at a time. Stir, stir, whip, whip, stir, beat, beat.