Looks like the prequels are not aging well. — Page 3

Well, I haven't really read any EU, I'm just going by the full-on fairy tale happily-ever-after ending of the movie.

C3PX said:

(as there was nothing to say the Empire was over, other than having lost their second end all be all weapon, and having lost their Emperor. If the President of the US was killed, and we lost a few of our finest battleships, it would suck big time, but the US government would be far from fallen). 

If Star Wars was meant to be realistic that would be the case, but I think it's pretty clear we're meant to take it the Empire is over at the end of ROTJ.

In the SE it's all the more clear with that Gungan shouting "Wesa free!" The SE is bull, but I think there it may underline what was always the intention with ROTJ.

according to the EU, their were the remaining imperals that were still trying to win over planets from the rebels and

vice versa. they still had bases spread through out the galaxy and such. for about three decades the rebellion had to

work on keeping the imperials out. some imperials joined the rebellion. even so, there were still some hiding out

there.

C3PX said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

If Star Wars was meant to be realistic that would be the case, but I think it's pretty clear we're meant to take it the Empire is over at the end of ROTJ.

 

Really? Just because of the celebration? It was a huge victory, a great big hootenanny was most definitely called for. For some reason in all the years before the SE, I never even began to assume the Empire was over at that moment. It is not like all those Imperial bases and outposts scattered through the galaxy would just spontaneously explode because of the Death Star blew up.  

Obviously that was the original intention though, thank God George made that clear with the SE.

 

The way it was all portrayed, taken in context of the simpicity that marks Star Wars in certain ways, gives the message that it's all over and the Empire is done. Star Wars wasn't about making realistic sense. Simple story like the Emperor is dead so the empire is done fits with the mentality of the OT.

In the 80s EU, in the Marvel comics, the Empire was defeated after ROTJ but it remained a power in the galaxy. A few issues after the events of ROTJ, the rebels are setting up a new galactic government and a galactic congress and the comic says that the galaxy has been freed from imperial rule. This is set not long after the death of the Emperor. So obviously the empire is not controlling things after ROTJ. The Empire is not the dominant enemy in the comics after the events of ROTJ, but they do turn up at times, including imperials allied with other enemies of the rebels. And the rebels end up allying with some imperials and other enemies against the new enemy the Tof in the last issue.

The relevance of the Marvel comics take on things is that it shows people back in the 80s figuring the empire was mostly over after ROTJ. I suspect that was the assumption among most people. Certainly nobody back then gave me the impression that the empire wasn't over after ROTJ.

I for one love the Prequel Trilogy for what it is and have no complaints with it well besides that dreaded character Jar Jar Binks lol. Its not the Original Trilogy nor was it intended to be the Original Trilogy but what it was suppost to be was the back story the story that every Star Wars fan wanted to see for years and it 1999 we got it with The Phantom Menace with the story of Anakin Skywalker. I think people should let this topic rest because the Prequels are great movies and people just need to let it have its legacy in the Star Wars Saga. 

Now, I'm not a big fan of Post-ROTJ EU, but it seems to me that what is portrayed there is a fairly satisfying and logical situation.

The Emperor is dead, as is Death Star, Vader, and at least a few key military commanders and the flagship of the fleet. Existing Imperial morale is devastated.

Rebel Alliance, with huge momentum after Endor, gain more allies and strength and go on the offensive. Open rebellions begin to occur (one way to interpret the SE added scenes).

Existing Imperial power structure, now free of the nigh unlimited executive, fractures as the powerful regional governors (and of course TRIOCULUS!) miliraty commanders and religious leaders engage in infighting further weakening the Empire.

Even if the Empire isn't magically instantly over, it was at least the beggining of the end (or the end of the beggining?). Major celebrating is in order.

 Scruffy said:

The mentality of the OT, or the mentality of the OT viewers? A New Hope established what little we know of the Empire's structure in the filmed canon. And ANH was written when both Palpatine and Vader were comparatively less important than they were later conceived to be. Even after Palpatine and Vader were elevated to near-Morgoth and Sauron levels, the structure hinted at in ANH would still be in effect.

In ANH, it was established that the Imperial bureaucracy was a willful institution, only controlled by the Emperor through the Senate. With the dissolution of the Senate, the bureaucracy was bypassed or subordinated to the Regional Governors, and the RGs were given direct control of Imperial territories.The relevance of the Marvel comics take on things is that it shows people back in the 80s figuring the empire was mostly over after ROTJ. I suspect that was the assumption among most people. Certainly nobody back then gave me the impression that the empire wasn't over after ROTJ.

There is every reason to believe that these regional governors would have maintained their imperiums. Bureaucracies, almost by definition, survive regime changes unless forcefully purged. You don't need the EU to tell you that the blow against the Empire at Endor was not instantly fatal.

I think you're expecting too much consistency and overthinking it.

Why should the EU of the 80s be any more important than the EU of the 90s? After all, the Marvel era is mostly forgotten, but the modern EU has been going strong ever since Zahn. Both Marvel and Zahn worked from the same version of RotJ, both derived different versions of what happened after it, and one really caught on.

The EU from the 80s is the EU from back THEN, around the time of the movies themselves. It's a product of how people received the movies in the 80s and interpreted them then. And, that being the key Star Wars era, that is relevant.

Also, the 90s EU doesn't entirely disagree with the Marvel comics. The empire IS partially defeated after ROTJ. It fragments and loses ground and the imperials start fighting each other. It doesn't all fall in one go, but it is no longer the single unified dominant power in the galaxy.

The fact that the 90s EU caught on is of no consequence. We're not discussing here what the accepted EU estblished. We're discussing what was intended in the films. And I think most people back in the 80s knew the films' intent was the empire falling after ROTJ, hence the Mavel take on it. And I think the SE suggests that such was indeed Lucas's intent in ROTJ.

I think the tendency to believe that the Empire died at Endor is usually driven by the belief, held by some, that RotJ is the Last Star Wars Ever. If it were, of course one would want to believe that all the battles had been one and everyone lived happily ever after.

I disagree. Back in the 80s we expected a sequel trilogy and despite that we still thought ROTJ was the end of the empire.

Also, from what little we heard about ideas for the sequel trilogy, it was about the new regime, not about fighting the empire.

(I'm intentionally ignoring the handful of celebrations depicted in the SE. There's nothing remarkable about certain groups in a given population celebrating a change of regime.)

Which is a mistake. They're clearly meant to imply celebrations all over the galaxy, implying the galaxy has been freed (remember "wesa free"). And you said it there yourself -"a change of regime". Your above post is all about denying there's a change in regime. A change in regime in this case means the fall of the empire. A change from imperial regime to another regime. And with the restrictive rule of the empire you wouldn't think there'd be huge crowds gathering to celebrate the rebel victory against the empire if the empire was still ruling (right in the middle of Coruscant no less and toppling Palpatine's statue) -the imperials would be unlikely to allow it. And that Gungan in the Naboo celebration shouting "Wesa free!" says it all -clearly they have been made free of imperial rule by the victory at Endor. I would say that line may have been put in to make it clearer. Certainly it's possible those celebrations were put in to show that the empire had fallen because some might have thought otherwise.

Now, I don't generally go by the special edition. When George Lucas claims some special edition thing was his original intention I tend to be suspicious. But here I think it may show his original intention, because it fits with the impression ROTJ gave me. 

For a look at what the official interpretation of ROTJ's ending was back in 83, take a look at the last lines of the ROTJ novelization. It says "The Empire was dead. Long live the Alliance." There you have it.

It wasn't just the Marvel comics and everybody I knew who thought the empire was over, it was Lucasfilm, judging from that. And judging from the SE it was Lucas too.

It doesn't matter if logically the empire wouldn't be over just like that, Star Wars went for a simpler less realistic story. I've never been fond of the Star-Wars-is-for-kids argument, but it's true to some extent that the films were aimed at kids and having the empire just end like that is characteristic of the simpler storytelling you get in kids stuff.

The nature of the scenes at the end of ROTJ gives a clear emotional message that the war is over and the empire is done. If you get bogged down in the logic and try to think of Star Wars as if it was meant to be realistic then you'll blind yourself to that emotional message. Baronlando got it right -it's a fairytale ending. Star Wars is a fairytale, not realistic science fiction.

I think the 90s EU was aimed at an older age group than the films (or the Marvel comics) and they wanted to continue the conflict with the empire so they could have a story, so they brought in a revisionist take that the empire went on after ROTJ. But that's what it is -a revisionist take. Just like the prequels are a revisionist take. It's no more valid than the prequels nonsense.

In the original film, the intention is that the empire is over and that's the real story as far as I'm concerned.

Vaderisnothayden said:

For a look at what the official interpretation of ROTJ's ending was back in 83, take a look at the last lines of the ROTJ novelization. It says "The Empire was dead. Long live the Alliance." There you have it.

The nature of the scenes at the end of ROTJ gives a clear emotional message that the war is over and the empire is done. If you get bogged down in the logic and try to think of Star Wars as if it was meant to be realistic then you'll blind yourself to that emotional message. Baronlando got it right -it's a fairytale ending. Star Wars is a fairytale, not realistic science fiction.

In the original film, the intention is that the empire is over and that's the real story as far as I'm concerned.

 I'm not 100% sure I agree. They're celebrating, and really happy, but they celebrated and were happy at the end of 'Star Wars' also. Unless we're counting the novelizations as the same as the movie, which I don't. They're EU too, to me.

Endor was a major victory, a pivotal victory, but they never say in the movie it HAS to be the final victory. Mon Mothma doesn't say 'If we win this, it's over.' Alternatly, I see no reason to insist the Empire, or some form of it, would continue, but I also don't see any die hard reason in the movie to maintain that all the fighting is over.

I'm not 100% sure I agree. They're celebrating, and really happy, but they celebrated and were happy at the end of 'Star Wars' also.

The celebration at the end of Star Wars was of a different kind with a different tone. The ROTJ celebration was an end-of-the-war it's-all-over we-don't-have-to-worry-about-the-future kind of celebration. 

 Unless we're counting the novelizations as the same as the movie, which I don't. They're EU too, to me.

The novelization saying the empire was dead demonstrates what was the official interpretation of the film's ending back then. And it can't be coincidential that the Marvel comics and everybody I knew and Lucas in the SE all agree with the novelization. It's irrelevant whether the novelization is EU or not. What matters is that it demonstrates the official view. The novelizations have always been the foremost companions to the films and adaptions of the films and Lucasfilm canon has considered them higher than all ordinary EU since at least as far back as 1994 (1994 was when Lucasfilm first said anything about canon). I don't buy everything in the novelizations, but I do recognize that they are taken more seriously than ordinary EU and that they were made with a pretty serious intent and often include stuff not in the films that comes from Lucas and include stuff that shows the official interpretation of the films. If the novelization back in 83 said that the empire is dead at the end of ROTJ that means the people at Lucasfilm figured the empire is dead at the end of ROTJ. The novel wouldn't go off on its own over something so big as the empire being over. It would have to be pretty recognized officially for them to put that in book. And what do you know, Lucas demonstrated that it was his view too (in the SE) and the comics too. The only thing that disagrees is the 90s EU, which was a revisionist take that came along long after the film came out. I think with all that evidence you have to be really pushing it to make out that the empire wasn't meant to be over in ROTJ. 

I think the novelization is telling us the original intent behind ROTJ's ending.

Endor was a major victory, a pivotal victory, but they never say in the movie it HAS to be the final victory. Mon Mothma doesn't say 'If we win this, it's over.' Alternatly, I see no reason to insist the Empire, or some form of it, would continue, but I also don't see any die hard reason in the movie to maintain that all the fighting is over.

Emotionally the movie DOES give you the message that the empire is over at the end of the film. Yes the movie does give the impression that the fighting is over -that's the tone of the celebration and ending scenes. And Mon Mothma may not have known that the Emperor and Darth Vader were both going to be killed in the battle of Endor. After all, Jerjerrod was pretty surprised when he heard the Emperor was going to be coming to the Death Star.

i think it was in family guy, one of the officers said to the commander after the death star blows up, "So were just gonna run?"

         "yea!"

"We still have more ships then them"

         "the empor is dead. we gotta run now"

i don't think that's exactly how it goes, but somewhere along those lines.

TheDoctor1987 said:

I think people should let this topic rest because the Prequels are great movies and people just need to let it have its legacy in the Star Wars Saga. 

I have no problem with your opinion of the PT, but should all of us just say that Godfather III is a great movie simply because it completes The Godfather Trilogy?  Should we all agree the Rocky V is great simply because it is part of the 6 movie saga? 

Again, opinions are opinions, but just because a movie(s) is part of a set of movies already made, does not excuse them if someone like myself or others thinks they are not up to par.