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"Like all creative minds, they need to be slapped down!"

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Joss Whedon said this on the commentary to the pilot episode of Firefly.

I immediately thought of Mr. Lucas. He had no one to tell him "NO!!!" on the prequels. I think that's what hurt them most of all. Lucas isn't as great as many (I sure did) thought he was. It wasn't just him. It was all those people who worked with him on Star Wars and Empire. Many of them were gone by Jedi and it showed. They were there to check and balance Lucas.

As a aspiring writer myself, I can see where you would want creative control and don't want anyone telling you "what to do." I used to think editors, producers and such were evil people, but after seeing what Lucas has done to Star Wars with those crap prequels, I have completely changed my mind on that. I think they're necessary. Creative minds need to be kept in check, otherwise you get something like Jar Jar Binks or Ewoks or shit dialogue in front of a fireplace.

It's all good though. I used to be angry about what Lucas did, but I unplugged from Star Wars for a while and got some perspective. Star Wars and what Lucas has done and become is simply just a demonstration of what not to do in any artistic endeavor. Always write the whole story at once, never wait too long to tell it and always have someone critiquing what you do (feedback is important, even during the creative process).

To me now, Lucas is a joke. Joss Whedon is the man now. Don't mean to be sprouting Whedon off though....I just love Firefly and Serenity. Makes me feel like I did when I watched Star Wars as a kid. I needed that right now after Episode 3.
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There's alot of A New Hope flavor in Firefly. For all those people who said they wanted a Han Solo-ish influence in the prequels, i don't understand why they're not getting their browncoat on. Makes me wonder if that was just their excuse to separate themselves from the SW universe. anyway...

The problem I have with your hypothesis tho is it's "Joss Whedon"'s this "Joss Whedon"'s that. (maybe this is just a promotion ideal for the movie) and I haven't delved back into the behind the scenes of the series to see if there are people helping him out. but right now the whole thing is being portrayed as a one man show. ...and after what happens in the movie, it's yet to be seen where the series is going. but right now Firefly was/is awesome, the movie I felt was too short. could have been a much better 5-7 tv show arc spread over a whole season.

as for Lucas, yeah he seems to be missing a few voices behind the scenes to give some ooomph. (but those kind of stories don't usually come out as the movie is being made) It's interesting, in the Ep3 commentary, to hear some negative words come out of f*ck*ng McCallum's voice. he's always so pro-Lucas, but he sorta gets into how certain things didn't work out, weren't working or needed to be dropped (not to his liking sometimes) to get the d*mn movie done. Lucas might have really putzed around more then he did, if no one got on his back to stay on some schedule. Hopefuly some stories out of production staff will give us a sense of how far out into left field Lucas actually was, he had the possibility to do anything (Jar-Jar was going to be a character like a puffin fish at one point), things could have been alot worse. but inthe end it's a different type of story.

As for the prequels, it will be interesting to see what the generation who grew up on them takes with them into adulthood.

SW is Lucas's toy, and he's an adult, how could you convince him that certain things needed to be slapped down?
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SW is Lucas's toy, and he's an adult, how could you convince him that certain things needed to be slapped down?


I understand where you're coming from with this, but I think it's just a testiment to Lucas' ego, which has GOT to be huge. He's probably the most powerful force in movies today. No one is going to argue with him after all the money he's made.

I think the prequels are going to be laughed at in 10 years time. People are going to look at it and say they are shit.

I just think that Lucas shouldn't have done any more Star Wars movies. I'm happy with the OT.

As for the Firefly stuff you said, none, he does have plenty of people working with him, but in some of the other commentaries, the writers said that Joss would change and add stuff. So to me, it has his handprints on everything, but it isn't ALL Joss. The prequels is ALL Lucas.
Even if he had help on AOTC, it's still all Lucas. The OT had other writers all the way through. Even the Star Wars script was doctored by some other writers even though Lucas got credit for it. Empire and Jedi were written totally by people other than Lucas.
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I don't know much about Joss Whedon, but damn this guy is right! And it is about time that someone in the hollywood community said the truth. I'm sure Spielberg and Coppola and Cameron all feel the same way about the PT, but cause they're friends with Lucas, it is sacred not to criticize, and I can sort of understand that.

My whole thing about Lucas is the ultimate irony. The man is a genius, but that genius also led to the average prequels. He made Star Wars, developed Star Wars, and deserves all the accolades that the success of Star Wars had garnered. But there was such a ensemble team that made them that much better than any other movie saga of all-time. Now the ensemble players don't deserve too much credit, but after they left you can feel the void in the following movies.

The ultimate ensemble cast was ESB. Lucas developed the story and Executive Produced. Lawrence Kasden wrote the great screenplay. Gary Kurtz was the producer on the set all day. Irvin Kershner was director who got great performances out of the actors, and made it the most realistic Star Wars movie. Ben Burtt was the sound designer that gave us the great sounds. And of course John Williams awesome score.

Now who is the only one who stayed for all 6 episodes: John Williams. Now the music of the prequels is great, and probably the least complained about by the fans. Ben Burtt went to editing in AOTC, and it shows, but the sounds are still awesome. Kershner left, and Marguard did a good job, but Lucas did an awful job of directing in the prequels, as most the actors seemed very flat. The dialogue mostly written by Lucas in the prequels, was terrible, and sure it was campy in the OT, but 10 times worse in the PT. Gary Kurtz was gone after ESB, and the kiddy factor slowly crept into the saga.

I don't who this Joss Whedon guy is, but damn he is 100% right on how to make a saga great, and how to ruin it.
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I don't who this Joss Whedon guy is, but damn he is 100% right on how to make a saga great, and how to ruin it.


Then I HIGHLY, HIGHLY suggest that you get the Firefly DVD set and if you can, get your butt to the theater to see the movie, Serenity.

It is everything that Star Wars is lacking in the prequels. Firefly has a Han Solo that shoots FIRST!!!!!! That's enough for me.

Seriously though, I've been listening and reading a lot about Joss Whedon and I can't help but think that this guy knows what he's doing and knows what the hell he's talking about. Plus, he's a pretty likeable person and seems like he's doing this for fun. Watching Lucas in the bonus stuff on the DVDs was like watching a test pattern.....BORING!!!

Another interesting comment by Whedon in the commentaries was about AOTC. Joss something to the effect that there was stuff he really didn't agree with early in that film. He never elaborated and I think it might have been about camera work though, but I would LOVE to hear his opinion of the prequels, mostly cuz he's a writer in Hollywood who's doing work that I think is better than most out there right now.
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Joss Whedon said this on the commentary to the pilot episode of Firefly.


And he was being facetiously snarky. It's what Whedon does. And if you think Whedon and Minear don't also make shit up as they go, you're deluding yourself. Their outlines for future seasons were just as nebulous as Lucas' were.

Trying to supplant Lucas with Whedon seems to be the new Fanboy Funtime Activity, and it's not sticking. And I say that as someone who thought Serenity was one of the best movies this year. The space battle in Serenity was BETTER than Revenge of the Sith's. But Whedon's got plenty of his own creative fuckups on his resume. Fuckups that he wouldn't listen to other people on. The difference between Whedon and Lucas is that Lucas actually takes ownership over those, acknowledges that people don't like them and says "Well, it's what I wanted to do."

Whedon, on the other hand, blames EVERYONE ELSE BUT HIMSELF instead. "Alien Resurrection" failed because of the director, they mangled his script (no they didn't.) Halle Berry's crap lines in X-Men weren't his fault, they were Halle Berry's for delivering them poorly (no, it was a crap line.) Firefly failed because Fox didn't know how to handle it (They knew the ratings were dropping every show and even at their best they were barely reaching a 3) Lucas' first work was THX 1138. Whedon's was assistant to the head writer on Roseanne. C'mon.

I love Firefly, I own it, and I can't wait to own Serenity, but trying to prop up Whedon as "The New Lucas" when Whedon's got just as many black marks against him (And nowhere NEAR as many successes--Angel is no Indiana Jones) is pretty thin, and the remark we're jumping from was a smartass half-joke in the first place. I don't think you're actually learning anything about the creative process, X1, I think you're just jumping from one writer/director to another to shower your fandom on, that's all. Nothing's actually changing. And the instant Whedon does something you don't like with Firefly/Serenity, you'll say the exact same things you just said about Lucas

And I've talked about it before, but the perception that McCallum was always this big yes-man seems to have been created, wholecloth, by the fans, and looking at the behind the scenes stuff--I don't see why that is. McCallum is a great promoter, but you see him behind the scenes on Episode I and he's worried a lot. you see him after that first cut and he's depressed as shit. You read the making of Episode III, all he's doing is GOING CRAZY trying to get George to focus and make the story better.
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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Biz...

Regardless of whatever fuckups Whedon has made, I still think his writing is light years ahead of Lucas.

I actually liked Alien Resurrection (except that wierd alien mutation at the end), X-Men was awesome through and through and I honestly think Firefly was mistreated (airing the pilot last?!?!?!!?).

I realize that I am sort of championing Whedon lately, but I really do think he's better than Lucas. I never said he was "The New Lucas."
I just feel rather let down by Lucas and then I discover this great show called Firefly and then see this great movie called Serenity and I feel somewhat reinvigorated that even though the greatest sci-fi epic (to me anyway) of Star Wars was ruined, there is still some good stuff out there to discover. And there will be more great stuff to come!!!

And I really hate that fanboy shit that gets spewed around a lot. I'm not a virgin, I don't live in my parent's basement, I don't live, eat breathe and shit Star Wars or Star Trek. I like stories....particularly science fiction stories. I'm no more fanboyish than those crazy fuckers who go to sports games every weekend. Gosh, give the fanboy bullshit a rest!
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fanboy isn't a negative term, dude. it just means you like a lot of sci-fi/comics/geek stuff. That's all it means.

And there was always great stuff to discover out there. It shouldn't have taken Serenity for you to discover that.

Anyway, Alien Resurrection was god-awful, X-Men wasn't really whedon, just a few of his lines, one of which was again, god-awful, and yeah, Firefly was mistreated, but it's got to factor in at some point that people simply don't want to play around in that universe. It got 11 episodes and the ratings kept going down. It got a movie, and nobody came. It's a nice treat for those of us willing to take the plunge, but the bottom line is that people simply don't want to watch the characters in that universe. It's not appealing to the mainstream, for whatever reason. And you know what? Neither does Whedon. He's effectively marginalized himself very well. He's a sci-fi Kevin Smith.

Yes, he's a better writer than Lucas, but so is 80 percent of Hollywood. But snarky dialog doesn't make you the savior of sci-fi Whedon writes GREAT soap opera, I'll give him that

That said, if you just wanted to say "I like Joss Whedon a whole bunch" you should have just posted that. Because that really doesn't have anything to do with what you seemed to start this thread saying. Well, that and you couldn't tell when Whedon was goofing.
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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Yeah, he was goofing, but I thought the goofy statement still said something pretty relevant to Lucas.
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Don't worry about it, Cable-X1. Your feelings are quite understandable, and you are under no obligation to defend them so vehemently.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Hey, he's gonna put those feelings out there so vehemently, he can defend them as such Such is how discussions go. I never said his feelings weren't understandable, either. Actually, the only thing I didn't understand is how he can dig quality entertainment like Firefly and still think Alien Resurrection is a good movie, but he's definitely not alone in that regard. He's got like, 6 other people with him, I think. Diff'rent strokes and all.

it's all gravy, MeBe, although I'm sure he appreciates the head-pat.

Besides which, at least we have common ground in that we both really like Firefly and Serenity
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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did whedon rewrite speed? if he did then thats the only thing i like of his. by the way i only liked ep3 of the prequels. serenity was crap even though i agree with his quote
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I liked Serenity WAY more than EPI and II, but not III. I have a funny feeling that that may be because it's Star Wars.

In any case, my favourite movies this year, so far, include ROTS, Serenity, The Aviator, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and Closer.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Originally posted by: The Bizzle
Hey, he's gonna put those feelings out there so vehemently, he can defend them as such Such is how discussions go. I never said his feelings weren't understandable, either. Actually, the only thing I didn't understand is how he can dig quality entertainment like Firefly and still think Alien Resurrection is a good movie, but he's definitely not alone in that regard. He's got like, 6 other people with him, I think. Diff'rent strokes and all.

it's all gravy, MeBe, although I'm sure he appreciates the head-pat.

Besides which, at least we have common ground in that we both really like Firefly and Serenity



A head-pat? You're not trying to patronize me? Are you, Biz?

I still stand behind that Alien Resurrection was good. It had a good concept, but it could use a sequel or two. Just that weird alien/human hybrid at the end was a little hard to swallow.

Thanks MBJ for coming in.....I really hate the term "fanboy." It gets thrown around too much over the PT vs. OT or SE vs. OOT issue and has really turned me off. All I ever wanted was the original trilogy to stand the test of time and then have a prequel trilogy that told the whole story and was every bit as great as the OT. That would have been a great thing if I ever had kids and showed them Star Wars. Something to share with the next generation, I suppose. As it stands, I have neither. The films I grew up with "no longer exist" in the eyes of its creator and the new films can be summed up on two words: "shit sandwich." Bonus point to who gets that reference.

So, for all it's worth, I feel a bit cheated cuz I was VERY into Star Wars when I was a kid and it was a way to hang onto the kid in me a bit longer.

I just hate that many would call me a fanboy and dismiss the whole thing. Anyone who says that to me, I say fuck 'em then....plain and simple
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"I still stand behind that Alien Resurrection was good. It had a good concept, but it could use a sequel or two. Just that weird alien/human hybrid at the end was a little hard to swallow."

Agreed. I'd rather watch this than any of the PT films.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Actually, I thought an aliens vs predator movie was a natural sequel to this. Ripley with her enhanced powers would put her right in the field with the predators. Would of been neat to see....
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Sounds like a far better idea than the actual AvP. //vomit

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I'm not a Whedon fan but I agree with him.

I heard one draft of Alien VS Predator had the Predators going home with the skulls of the Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny Glover characters from the first two movies.
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/greencapt/hansolovsindy.jpg
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Ive never seen the Firefly series but it sounds really good, with everybody seemingly recommending it, it also sounds like it maybe better than the Prequels, will go and buy it and have a look..
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Sounds like a far better idea than the actual AvP. //vomit



Yeah, that one was pretty harsh. Was cool to see a Predator kick the shit out of an alien.....but the character were so.....boring!!!

I actually was thinking that they could do much, much more with both the predator and the alien series. They could really tie both together quite well too.

Predator - as we know it
Predator 2 - as we know it
Predator 3 - takes place in the future as a prequel to alien......the company has a run in with an predator ship....it ends with the predator ship crashing and being the same ship that Ripley and her crew visit in Alien.

Alien - as we know it
Aliens - as we know it
Alien 3 - as we know it

Aliens: Earth Hive - trilogy of films where the aliens get to Earth and completely fuck everything up (based from the comic series, which was great) and how an android Ripley helps to destroy the aliens and save Earth

Alien Resurrection - as we know it
Alien Vs Predator - as I described above with the cloned Ripley joining the Predators and you can do more of these if need be

Sound good?
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Sure, let me know when you're done.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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That Earth Hive trilogy would have soooooo rocked it, man!!! The original comics and books just screamed to be turned into movies.
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man... all those good movies in the 70's, 80's and 90's only to be screwed up in the 21st century by money hungry business men who don't appear to have any understanding of how movies should really work.
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
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If a movie had the story of the Alien vs Predator 2 game, I reckon it would go down good. The Alien vs Predator movie was cool to see all the aliens and predators and crap, but the story sucked, the acting was lame, and it wasn't scary enough because they showed too much of the aliens/predators.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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And very little of what they showed was actual fighting. You know, the "V" part in AVP.

It's a third of the title, and one one-hundredth of the film.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>