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Legacy of Sequel Trilogy?

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This is more of a discussion hinting towards mythology of Star Wars and what impact the sequel trilogy will have on the sagas story as a whole. Overall in perceptive of the story of the six episodes so far were given two very different trilogies in ideas and execution. The prequels have better ideas/overall plot than the originals. Yes I said it! And I shall defend it while also acknowledging the immense problems with the prequels when it comes to the execution of these ideas. The original trilogy was a black and white story of light vs dark. No problem with that because it obviously still allowed for a fantastic movie trilogy. But it can’t reach the philosophical heights the prequels do (with fan edits; Hal9000s, L8wtrs, Q2’s).
The prequels establish the environment of indoctrination and arrogance of a organization blinded to the changing world. The prequels illustrate how the Sith were playing smarter and more adaptive than the Jedi. Things start to heat up philosophically when Anakins mother dies along with the introduction of a great plot device… The Jedi code and its strict, emotionally limiting principles of detachment and discipline. Anakin obviously feels frustrated with the Jedi starting in episode 2 when he starts having feelings for padme. You will see he comes to temporary peace with this by saying the Jedi are encouraged to love while in transit to Naboo in a conservation with padme. Only later does Anakin realize that even Yoda practically welcomes the death of close ones. Palpatines plants the idea that the Sith are merely an embrace of a full spectrum of life where love and passion are the center of a siths life. Obviously, this was pure seduction but with some truth which was that the Jedi are wrong and the code had its faults. So who’s right then? No one. Not until Luke Skywalker comes along. This is the bridge between the trilogies and how the prequels let you see the OT in new light. Episode 4 mythologically doesn’t do nearly as much as empire and Jedi but does the job of introducing a whole new step in the saga. Empire has Yoda train luke which is great because you have the cave scene and some good truth from Yoda to Luke. But where empire hits home is reinserting the Jedi code of detachment into the OT coming from the mouths of directly obi wan and Yoda. Luke refuses to accept this and leaves to bespin. With Anakin he was seduced by sidious along side that. so that and just Luke’s character as a whole is why he doesn’t turn to the dark side in empire. That’s the great thing about the PT and OT compared. Anakin and Luke face the same problems with attachment but in the prequels we give Anakin more pressure, a secret wife, a council of masters lurking at his every move etc. in the OT Luke is given a innocent upbringing with honest and fresh eyes to the whole Jedi Code. Luke is able to make his own decisions without believing he must be a sith since they love and Jedi do Not. Anakin was tricked into this dark power by sidious and his problem with the Jedi code did not ultimately make him evil but it was eventually his crazed dreams of grandeur that formed and selfishness. By the end of episode 3 Anakin doesn’t give a crap about Padme and is so lost in his rage and power that he ultimately turns evil. Luke in Jedi chose love over detachment while acknowledging that it wasn’t Jedi or sith but it what was RIGHT. Only when Anakin finally realized this at the end of Jedi did he choose to definetly make things right by killing the emperor and letting his son know that he was right about their still being good in him. This six episode spanning saga of STORY is perhaps the grandest and greatest I have ever experienced. Now I also must say this before I bridge this to the sequel trilogy. There is a big difference between Ideas/Story/mythology and Execution of those ideas. The OT executed brilliantly while the prequel trilogy not so much. But with added deleted scenes, trimmed up distractions (fart jokes and sand alike), and reordering of scenes with high quality fan edits the prequels are shown in all their glory. Same goes for the original trilogy when using theatrical editions. OT had great execution, but not amazing mythology when it comes to morals and light and dark side. This is solved by the complementing story of the prequels. The prequels had fantastic ideas/story with poor execution. This is remedied by Fan-edits. Say what you will about TFA but I find its execution theatrically was up to par and better than the prequels execution. I find it though as a single movie to be lacking ideas wise. But here’s my theory. Episode 4 is what it’s mirroring all movie so let’s take a step back to ANH. Great Movie with nearly perfect execution but now that I think about it, it wasn’t that emotionally deep with any inspiring ideas until it is accompanied by Empire and Jedi and the prequels to a certain extent. I feel that since Force Awakens was the first of a trilogy and had to bring in the old AND the new characters it did fine for that job. Now the greatness of the ideas lies in the hands of episodes 8 and 9. I think what would be so great is if Snoke is revealed to have seen the mistakes of leaders, Jedi and Sith through the PT/OT events and swares to not repeat them. The politics is pretty much that the new republic is again blind to the real threat and doesn’t consider the first order a large enough of a threat. I’m reaching now for anything but I wanted to now propose what ideas relating to the prophecy and mythology of the saga will be presented in the FINAL trilogy of trilogies. May the force be with you all.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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tldr

Though I will say having read the first couple sentences. They prequels could’ve been good, if Lucas hired others to write and direct, in other words, to execute his ideas. But he didn’t, and the bad in this case overshadows the good.

TV’s Frink said:

I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.

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Overshadows? How about eclipses?

I H8 mammon and flip it all the birds. Sue me.

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I wouldn’t say eclipses. There is many powerful moments, great action, a couple great lines etc. and a fantastic story but then you also have Jar Jar, Sand, “it’s so dense”, wooden dialogue (laughable at some moments). When this is cut out, and deleted scenes are added, scenes reordered I think there made into something so much better. Honestly, a hybrid fan edit of L8wtr and Hal’s for episode 3 is better than TFA

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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The legacy of the ST will be determined by Episodes VIII and IX. TFA was a good jumping off point but just like with STAR WARS it will be the sequels that determine whether this trilogy fades into obscurity or not.

darthrush said:
Honestly, a hybrid fan edit of L8wtr and Hal’s for episode 3 is better than TFA

On par? Maybe. Better? Absolutely not (in my opinion). TFA get’s it right in ways the PT could never do; fanedit or nay. They both have problems but even a fanedited version of the PT has far more. The biggest problem being that they don’t feel like Star Wars.

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darthrush said:

Honestly, a hybrid fan edit of L8wtr and Hal’s for episode 3 is better than TFA

No way. I’m one of the few who can actually watch and enjoy the prequels. They’ve been with me for much of my life, and I’ve spent a good amount of time trying to find the right fan edits and consider how things could be improved. But seeing TFA makes me want to give that all up and forget the prequels ever even happened. No need for them when we now have something that’s so much better than they could ever be.

And, about the deeper philosophical elements in the PT, they’re almost there, but they’re really not. Even when I was young and considered ROTS one of the best films of all time I still felt like they didn’t really explore the philosophical elements all that much. Interesting things are set up, but they’re not gone into. Good fan edits remove some of the clutter so you can see those interesting things beneath the surface, but they can’t add what’s not there. Matthew Stover’s ROTS adaptation is the only thing that does justice to the story’s potential. It’s entirely possible that scenes were filmed and then cut, but at the end of the day what’s in the movie is in the movie. And it’s not all that well done.

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Completely agree that episode 7, and episode 4 are jumping points and the true legacy will be decided in 8 and 9. But here’s hybrid RoTS fan edit vs TFA comparison:

Story/ideas: RoTS>TFA
Characters: RoTS=TFA
Action: RoTS=TFA
Humor: RoTS<TFA
First Act: RoTS<TFA
Second Act: RoTS>TFA
Third Act: RoTS>TFA
Emotional Impact: RoTS>TFA
Immolation Scene>Hans Death Scene

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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^No way. Maybe (maybe!) on paper, but the execution of ROTS is so horribly botched that no fanedit or combination of fanedits can make that list a reality.

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the problem with TFA is not its execution but rather its lack of ideas and Rey being a Mary Sue. Luke and especially Anakin in RoTs are way more flawed and relatable so that when scenes like Anakins immolation happen you feel the emotion more viscerally than when Rey defeats Kylo for example. (And, RoTS soundtrack destroys TFA soundtrack).

I think when fan edited with deleted scenes, trimming the light saber battle so Rey doesn’t win but just holds on, and moving Planet destructions to later in the film would really benefit TFA. That’s why I’m so excited cause in 2 weeks the digital version comes out and the fan editing can begin.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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You are so wrong in so many ways I don’t even know where to start…

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Okay after hearing Ben’s ‘nostalgia for Weimar’ we were led to believe that before the Empire the world was a better place and the Empire just ruined it all.
But if ESB told us one thing it’s Ben is not a reliable narrator.
I could have handled a muddier peek at the galaxy he grew up in IF that world was convincing.
Not only are the Jedi not what you expect in the PT from watching the OT they are bizarrely stupid and kind of creepy. However I would draw issue with you saying the Sith were more adaptive and less stupid.
Palpatine is kind of smart but that’s really more a manifestation of him not being as bizarrely stupid as almost everybody else. It’s like someone dimension shifted Henry Kissinger into the world of Idiocracy(2006). And that too could be fun, Richard III is fun, Black Adder is fun. If Palpatine had been the focus of the story it could have been delecious.
If the OT was the story of the struggle of a slowly growing band of Rebels against an oppressive Tyrannical Empire, the PT is the story of one clever man playing two sets of badly directed assholes against each other. My only real objection to the PT are the scripts and how they are delivered.
The whole saga seems to be fueled by nostalgia (from the characters and the audience).
The OT is born of nostalgia from a myriad of different sources (only some of which are space opera). The PT and the ST are built on nostalgia for it.
In terms of what the characters are doing the main driving characters yearn for a past or play on such feelings.
Palpatine feeds Padme the line of the Republic ain’t what it used to be, he feeds Anakin tales of how great the Sith were and that the Jedi aren’t as selfless and heroic as they make out to be. In his Sith guise he feeds the Trade Federation the promise of a return to an age without regulation getting in the way of conquest and plunder.
Obi-Wan feeds Luke the line of things were better before the Empire, Owen feeds Ben the line of things being better before he turned up, Lando is keeping a bubble of the past floating in the sky and is willing to sacrifice old friends and old ships to protect it, Luke is pushing on Vader the line that Anakin was a better man than Vader.
In TFA so far we have the Resistance seemingly nostalgic of a time when they had the whole galaxy to liberate. Ren and the First Order in general are nostalgic for the certainties the Empire seemed to provide, to the point of dressing in versions of old Imperial uniforms and venerating relics of his fallen grandfather. The nostalgia generated by the Jedi, in particular Luke but fetishised by Anakin’s saber is a major part of the story. The nostalgia Han and Chewie feel for their glory days on the Falcon is also a big chunk of that movie.
It seems no matter if the story looks forwards or backwards it’s always looking at a past. It’s a space opera set a long time ago. So if it’s true to form it will keep doing that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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darthrush said:

Completely agree that episode 7, and episode 4 are jumping points and the true legacy will be decided in 8 and 9. But here’s hybrid RoTS fan edit vs TFA comparison:

Story/ideas: RoTS>TFA
Characters: RoTS<TFA
Action: RoTS<TFA
Humor: RoTS<TFA
First Act: RoTS<TFA
Second Act: RoTS<TFA
Third Act: RoTS=TFA
Emotional Impact: RoTS<TFA
Immolation Scene<Hans Death Scene

Fixed that for you.

The immolation scene comes close but I don’t care about Anakin and I care a little about Obi-Wan whereas in TFA I care a great deal about both Han and Ben Solo. And in terms of characters in general there’s no one that really stands out in ROTS with the exception of Obi-Wan and Palpatine. In TFA we have Rey, Finn and Poe (who are instantly likable unlike most “characters” in the PT) Han, Chewie and Leia who still have the same great chemistry from the OT and a great character (but not yet a fully realized villain) in Kylo Ren. The emotional impact of ROTS is next to nil for me. A bunch of Jedi I don’t care about had nothing on when Han says:

Han Solo: Take off that mask. You don’t need it.
Kylo Ren: What do you think you’ll see if I do?
Han Solo: The face of my son.

or when even after he’s stabbed he reaches out and touches his son’s face as he is dying. Even though I didn’t cry when Han died the 4th and my most recent viewing of TFA made me come dangerously close to it. Even things like when Rey scratched her wall for everyday she’s on Jakku hits me more emotionally than anything in ROTS. Mainly because I actually care about the characters.

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I see your point of view and do agree that Hans death is very emotional but the immolation scene is ridiculously packed with emotion for me. Ewans delivery on those lines are masterful. And to be clear here, when comparing each of these films as they were theatrically released I would put TFA above RoTS.

P.S.
The music for immolation scene is stronger/more emotional than “Torn Apart” in TFA IMHO

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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 (Edited)

darthrush said:

Rey being a Mary Sue

Most of the argument falls flat when you bring into account her days as a scavenger and Han’s inability to maintain the Falcon properly (just watch ESB if you think I’m lying). Her flying skills do not eclipse Han’s because not only did she nearly crash the ship before she even took off she also skidded the Falcon across the ground while the TIE fighters pursued her. Han does nothing of the like in the OT. Not only that in the novelization it is stated that the Rebel helmet had a VR simulator and that’s how she grasped a rudimentary knowledge of flying. Her abilities in the Force is still up for debate until we know her complete back story. Her knowing binary and the language of the Wookies is stated in the Visual Dictionary to be a result of meeting a plethora of beings and droids in Jakku. Though something like this should be common sense.

I really really wish people would stop calling her that. At least until we know the full extent of her back story. A Revanesque mind wiping would fix all these supposed problems.

Luke and especially Anakin in RoTs are way more flawed and relatable

Luke was flawed in the ways that makes one think “He’s a good kid at heart but he has problems that he’ll most likely overcome through experience and time” whereas Anakin just has problems and is just a bad person.

so that when scenes like Anakins immolation happen you feel the emotion more viscerally than when Rey defeats Kylo for example

If Anakin was likable in anyway you’d be right.

(And, RoTS soundtrack destroys TFA soundtrack).

Destroys is a strong word but I do agree it’s better.

trimming the light saber battle so Rey doesn’t win but just holds on, and moving Planet destructions to later in the film would really benefit TFA.

What about Kylo Ren’s facial scar? Also there’s enough in the film to see why she could have won

  • Kylo Ren being shot by Chewie’s bowcaster

  • Kylo Ren’s sword arm being damaged

  • Rey demonstrating prowess in melee combat

  • Kylo Ren being weakened by the guilt of killing Han (novelization states this)

  • Kylo Ren being tired before the duel with Finn, dueling him only to duel Rey immediately afterward

  • Rey’s awesome command in The Force

  • Kylo Ren not engaging in a serious (or any) lightsaber duel in years

  • Kylo Ren not completing either his light side or dark side training

  • Rey possibly getting her mind wiped which would explain her being competent with the lightsaber

But I guess it was a bad decision to make people think about extenuating circumstances.

The music for immolation scene is stronger/more emotional than “Torn Apart” in TFA IMHO

No argument here. The music in that scene is among the best John Williams has ever made. Top 10 for me personally.

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darthrush said:

And could we try to solve the problem of Rey kinda being a Mary Sue.

She isn’t so we don’t need to…and fuck that offensive term, btw.

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TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

And could we try to solve the problem of Rey kinda being a Mary Sue.

She isn’t so we don’t need to…and fuck that offensive term, btw.

Well there’s a term called Gary Stu so it goes both ways.

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Lord Haseo said:

  • Rey possibly getting her mind wiped which would explain her being competent with the lightsaber

Do you mean she learned to use a lightsaber in the past, and then her mind was wiped, and then she can use the saber because of muscle memory? Just curious if that’s what your point is here, because I got super confused the first time I read that sentence.

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DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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Dek Rollins said:

Lord Haseo said:

  • Rey possibly getting her mind wiped which would explain her being competent with the lightsaber

Do you mean she learned to use a lightsaber in the past, and then her mind was wiped, and then she can use the saber because of muscle memory? Just curious if that’s what your point is here, because I got super confused the first time I read that sentence.

If we’re going by Knights of The Old Republic mind wiping principles she could have gotten training at any point in her life from ages 5-14 and after Ben Solo betrayed Luke and slaughtered the Jedi Order she could have had her mind wiped and re programmed with a new identity (just like Darth Revan in Kotor) and left on Jakku. Either when she touched the lightsaber or when she got in Kylo’s head did her suppressed training start to resurface. Kylo Ren even says

“She’s just beginning to test her powers. The longer she’s free, the more dangerous she becomes.”

Which is something else that happened in Kotor. She also dreams of the planet Luke is on (which indicates she might have been there already) just like Revan and Bastila had dreams of the each piece of the map that lead to the Star Forge. I know it sounds crazy but seeing as how concepts like the good guys facing off against a remnant of The Empire like in the Thrawn Trilogy or having Kylo Ren be similar to Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus it’s not farfetched to believe that they wouldn’t use this element from the EU as well.

But muscle memory is something that I hadn’t thought of.

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Lord Haseo said:

TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

And could we try to solve the problem of Rey kinda being a Mary Sue.

She isn’t so we don’t need to…and fuck that offensive term, btw.

Well there’s a term called Gary Stu so it goes both ways.

Except it’s almost never used. Please don’t try to justify a sexist term.

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TV’s Frink said:

Lord Haseo said:

TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

And could we try to solve the problem of Rey kinda being a Mary Sue.

She isn’t so we don’t need to…and fuck that offensive term, btw.

Well there’s a term called Gary Stu so it goes both ways.

Except it’s almost never used.

Ok you got me on that one.

Please don’t try to justify a sexist term.

I’m not trying to justify it; I’m just saying that there is a male equivalent. I’m not giving my opinion if using the term is moral or whether the term has validity in a general sense.