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Leading To War
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Leading To War
Leading To War
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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The point is, even though it now appears that he didn't have any (by all accounts, they were moved to Syria just before we invaded), he was completely uncooperative with the inspectors which is what lead to UN resolutions which is what finally led to the invasion.
That website is misrepresenting the facts regarding UN inspections and the "destruction" of Saddam's chemical weapons (there is no documented evidence that that ever took place).
You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Sure, Saddam had WMD in 1988. After the first Gulf war I'm not so sure. Although not fully cooperating after the first Gulf war it would have been almost impossible for Saddam to make WMD.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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“First feel fear, then get angry. Then go with your life into the fight.” - Bill Mollison
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Arnie.d said:
I have seen interviews with dutch UN inspectors who worked in Iraq. It is a fact that months before the invasion Iraq was cooperating FULLY and nothing was ever found. But Bush had long decided to attack and nothing was going to change that.
Sure, Saddam had WMD in 1988. After the first Gulf war I'm not so sure. Although not fully cooperating after the first Gulf war it would have been almost impossible for Saddam to make WMD.
I have seen interviews with dutch UN inspectors who worked in Iraq. It is a fact that months before the invasion Iraq was cooperating FULLY and nothing was ever found. But Bush had long decided to attack and nothing was going to change that.
Sure, Saddam had WMD in 1988. After the first Gulf war I'm not so sure. Although not fully cooperating after the first Gulf war it would have been almost impossible for Saddam to make WMD.
Care to provide a link to these interviews? According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_1441 Iraq was only partially complying. UN Resolution 1441 called for full compliance. According to Hans Blix, there was a substantial lack of evidence that chemical weapons had in fact been destroyed as Iraq claimed. You can read the resolution in PDF form here http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/un/index.html
Isn't it interesting that France was against a war, threatened to veto a second resolution, and was selling weapons to Iraq at the same time? Gee, I wonder what they had to gain by not going to war.
You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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That kind of politics is common in mosts governments including the US government. And France was not the only one, Russia, Belarus and the Ukraine were also involved.
Besides, what did anyone had to gain from going to war with Iraq?
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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um last time i checked they did it to overthrow a mass murdering douche named saddam.
don't tell me you have sympathy for the man, lol.
although i still do believe the real war was against al qaida and in afghanistan, and it is completely a joke that bin ladin masterminded 911 and is still alive and well.
but we took out a guy who had nothing to do with 911.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
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Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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if bush's aim was to attack every nation that harbors terrorists we would be at war with the whole world and even ourselves since we allow al qaida folks to like right in the u.s.a. under diplomatic immunity.
also allegedly the bush admin. also commited high treason for the outing of an undercover cia operative because her husband brought bush to task for their being no wmd.
the justice department seized dick cheneys computer and he had destroyed again allegedly the e-mail communication between himself and carl rove and scooter libby.
most people are proberly unaware but the president or vice president being reponsible for using their authority against a political rival by putting the same persons wife at risk who was undercover is terms for the death penalty.
i am neither a republican nor democrat ass kisser. i am an independant.
i am also aware that former president bill clinton allegedly commited high treason for selling our nuclear secrets to socialist red china.
that would mean both recent presidents should have gotten the death penalty if found guilty, and would have if they were like an average american to have to follow the law. too bad they are untouchable bigshots who can break the law as many times as they see fit.
the biggest joke in american history, they did not get slick willy on chinagate but blowjobgate.
also the link posted above seems to be anti american rhetoric and propaganda produced by another country perhaps france or germany since they have language i cannot read above the videos, including middle eastern characters, which i am only familiar with the look of since they show up in bin ladin videos on the tv.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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skyjedi2005 said:
also the link posted above seems to be anti american rhetoric and propaganda produced by another country perhaps france or germany since they have language i cannot read above the videos, including middle eastern characters, which i am only familiar with the look of since they show up in bin ladin videos on the tv.
also the link posted above seems to be anti american rhetoric and propaganda produced by another country perhaps france or germany since they have language i cannot read above the videos, including middle eastern characters, which i am only familiar with the look of since they show up in bin ladin videos on the tv.
You mean the characters that change all the time? I think that's just to say the subs (or dubs) are in 19 different languages (which is written in 19 different languages).
Isn't this website and movie the work of Ted Turner?
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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I can't believe that some people can possibly defend the war in Iraq. Okay, maybe some people had different expectations when they first went in there, but after everything thats happened and come out, theres really nothing positive to say about it.
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zombie84 said:
Since Iraq and the middle east is in a worse state than when Saddam was around, no, we didn't really gain anything through his downfall.
I can't believe that some people can possibly defend the war in Iraq. Okay, maybe some people had different expectations when they first went in there, but after everything thats happened and come out, theres really nothing positive to say about it.
Since Iraq and the middle east is in a worse state than when Saddam was around, no, we didn't really gain anything through his downfall.
I can't believe that some people can possibly defend the war in Iraq. Okay, maybe some people had different expectations when they first went in there, but after everything thats happened and come out, theres really nothing positive to say about it.
That's exactly how I think about it too.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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That was pretty fucking awesome. The softer side of Saddam.
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zombie84 said:
Since Iraq and the middle east is in a worse state than when Saddam was around, no, we didn't really gain anything through his downfall.
I can't believe that some people can possibly defend the war in Iraq. Okay, maybe some people had different expectations when they first went in there, but after everything thats happened and come out, theres really nothing positive to say about it.
Since Iraq and the middle east is in a worse state than when Saddam was around, no, we didn't really gain anything through his downfall.
I can't believe that some people can possibly defend the war in Iraq. Okay, maybe some people had different expectations when they first went in there, but after everything thats happened and come out, theres really nothing positive to say about it.
Nothing positive? How about real elections. How about people not being put into meat grinders. How about peaceful political dissension (read non-violent protests) actually being tolerated instead of the perpetrators being killed. Every Democracy goes through this, or do you think the American Revolution was without its troubles to? You do realize that only 10-20% of the population at the time wanted to split with the crown. Everyone else wanted to stay loyal to the King.
The "lie" that sky refers to about 911 and Saddam and Iraq being related is no lie. What has been stated numerous times and is still true is that Al Qaeda had training camps within Iraq and Iraq was funding Al Qaeda. So while there is no direct link between Iraq and 911 (which has never been stated), Iraq was funding Al Qaeda, who did have a direct link to 911.
The CIA operative was not undercover according to Congressional rules. Congress makes the rules on who is undercover and who is not and she was not. Let's look at those rules:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00000426----000-.html
(4) The term “covert agent” means—
(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency—
(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and
(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or
(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and—
(i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or
(ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; or
(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose past or present intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information and who is a present or former agent of, or a present or former informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency.
Robert Novak is the one who first publicly mentioned her name. According to this http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E2D6153FF932A25753C1A9659C8B63 New York Times article, reporters often learn the names of CIA operatives, but never publish their names. True, Novak learned of it from Armitage, but even he says that he did not know her status, other than as a CIA employee, at the time.
According to this blog post (it's the best I can do right now) http://decision08.net/2007/03/08/was-valerie-plame-covert/ (scroll down to Relish), Valerie Plame had not been overseas since the early 90's, which is necessary in order to be considered covert. Her name wasn't mentioned until 2003. In order to be covert, she would've had to work outside the country as late as 1998, not just travel outside the country.
This has taken up far to much of my time and I shall now give up. It won't matter what anyone says anyway, you'll all continue to believe what you want simply because you don't like Bush.
You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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World War II was good for business and the economy.
both gulf war I and gulf war II left the country in a major recession.
only good thing i can say about bush sr.'s war was it kept my dad employed at the GE.
but after the war ended their were major layoffs.
By the way i voted for bush, i don't hate the man at all. i just wonder why every other day they are cooking up another case against him or dick cheney at the justice department to get them impeached.
Then again i live in massachusetts, not something to be proud of, most liberal state in the union. All the news is definetely biased because everyone seems to worship at the altars of JFK, and Bill Clinton.
So if fox news is right wing, and cnn left wing where the hell do you get news that is not lies or bias?
Hell at least fox news has 2 viewpoints and lets the dems have there say as well like any proper democracy should.
2 best books i ever read on crooked democrats, Senatorial Privaledge and the year of the rat.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
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lordjedi said:
Nothing positive? How about real elections. How about people not being put into meat grinders. How about peaceful political dissension (read non-violent protests) actually being tolerated instead of the perpetrators being killed.
zombie84 said:
Since Iraq and the middle east is in a worse state than when Saddam was around, no, we didn't really gain anything through his downfall.
I can't believe that some people can possibly defend the war in Iraq. Okay, maybe some people had different expectations when they first went in there, but after everything thats happened and come out, theres really nothing positive to say about it.
Since Iraq and the middle east is in a worse state than when Saddam was around, no, we didn't really gain anything through his downfall.
I can't believe that some people can possibly defend the war in Iraq. Okay, maybe some people had different expectations when they first went in there, but after everything thats happened and come out, theres really nothing positive to say about it.
Nothing positive? How about real elections. How about people not being put into meat grinders. How about peaceful political dissension (read non-violent protests) actually being tolerated instead of the perpetrators being killed.
While that is nice, it comes served with a side dish of bloody civil war and massive destabilization in a region that was already a hell-hole, which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Though granted new opporunities, Iraq is nonetheless far worse off than it was before the US invaded, it has unraveled into a complete mess that will not be able to be cleaned up in anyones lifetime, and the negative effects of the US invasion will continue to be felt long after the US pulls out there, whenever that will be. The American Revolution was a choice a nation made for itself, not one forced upon them by an outside occupier. If you are going to use the American Revolution as an analogy, then the US would be Britain and the Iraqi's would be the Colonials, since they are the indiginous peoples trying to throw off the impositions of a foreign power. I'm not saying that its terrible that theres some effort to build a democracy, because ideally that is a good thing, but the manner in which it was attempted was horribly misguided and did not have the best intentions of the Iraqi people behind it.
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zombie84 said:
The American Revolution was a choice a nation made for itself, not one forced upon them by an outside occupier.
The American Revolution was a choice a nation made for itself, not one forced upon them by an outside occupier.
This is very true and reflects the largest mistake that the Bush administration has made and is still making today. We thought we would be greeted as wonderful liberators when we should have been ready to be tough occupiers. While I don't believe that Iraq is an unredeemable mess, and I don't believe the current tactics are worthless, we should be doing more and I fear the United States is going to be left with many problems for years to come.
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
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Tiptup said:
This is very true and reflects the largest mistake that the Bush administration has made and is still making today. We thought we would be greeted as wonderful liberators when we should have been ready to be tough occupiers.
zombie84 said:
The American Revolution was a choice a nation made for itself, not one forced upon them by an outside occupier.
The American Revolution was a choice a nation made for itself, not one forced upon them by an outside occupier.
This is very true and reflects the largest mistake that the Bush administration has made and is still making today. We thought we would be greeted as wonderful liberators when we should have been ready to be tough occupiers.
When you say "We" I hope you are not saying the entire nation felt this way. There was warning after warning that going to war was going to lead to this end, but anyone who opposed the wisdom of the war hawks got shouted down as "hatters of America' and "lefty morons". Only the sheeple who followed the Bush call to war with his lie coated propaganda are shocked with this outcome. Please don't try to include everyone and say that there was ever some kind of united consensus for this war amongst the population. Objection to the war and predictions of this kind of turn out had been stated well in advance, but the Bush administration and right wing media worked overtime to suppress any decent to the war plan. To use an old phrase, "Told you so".
“First feel fear, then get angry. Then go with your life into the fight.” - Bill Mollison
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FanFiltration said:
When you say "We" I hope you are not saying the entire nation felt this way. There was warning after warning that going to war was going to lead to this end, but anyone who opposed the wisdom of the war hawks got shouted down as "hatters of America' and "lefty morons". Only the sheeple who followed the Bush call to war with his lie coated propaganda are shocked with this outcome. Please don't try to include everyone and say that there was ever some kind of united consensus for this war amongst the population. Objection to the war and predictions of this kind of turn out had been stated well in advance, but the Bush administration and right wing media worked overtime to suppress any decent to the war plan. To use an old phrase, "Told you so".
When you say "We" I hope you are not saying the entire nation felt this way. There was warning after warning that going to war was going to lead to this end, but anyone who opposed the wisdom of the war hawks got shouted down as "hatters of America' and "lefty morons". Only the sheeple who followed the Bush call to war with his lie coated propaganda are shocked with this outcome. Please don't try to include everyone and say that there was ever some kind of united consensus for this war amongst the population. Objection to the war and predictions of this kind of turn out had been stated well in advance, but the Bush administration and right wing media worked overtime to suppress any decent to the war plan. To use an old phrase, "Told you so".
"We" is a statement that includes all of us in the sense that what our government does, we do. This is a government for the people and by the people, even when we disagree with what happens. We give lots of money to people in the form of welfare spending every year (far more than we spend on military or war) and I still say "we" even though I find that to be incredibly stupid. If you disagree with my wording, then I don't really give a shit (since your distinction and worry is a little too anal retentive).
Otherwise, there have been many who supported the war thinking the Bush administration would have performed it in more intelligent ways. The war was not and is not unjustified in their minds. It's been poorly managed by misguided and simplistic thinking.
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
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Tiptup said:
"We" is a statement that includes all of us in the sense that what our government does, we do. This is a government for the people and by the people, even when we disagree with what happens. We give lots of money to people in the form of welfare spending every year (far more than we spend on military or war) and I still say "we" even though I find that to be incredibly stupid. If you disagree with my wording, then I don't really give a shit (since your distinction and worry is a little too anal retentive).
Otherwise, there have been many who supported the war thinking the Bush administration would have performed it in more intelligent ways. The war was not and is not unjustified in their minds. It's been poorly managed by misguided and simplistic thinking.
"We" is a statement that includes all of us in the sense that what our government does, we do. This is a government for the people and by the people, even when we disagree with what happens. We give lots of money to people in the form of welfare spending every year (far more than we spend on military or war) and I still say "we" even though I find that to be incredibly stupid. If you disagree with my wording, then I don't really give a shit (since your distinction and worry is a little too anal retentive).
Otherwise, there have been many who supported the war thinking the Bush administration would have performed it in more intelligent ways. The war was not and is not unjustified in their minds. It's been poorly managed by misguided and simplistic thinking.
Gosh! No need to be so defensive, as I was only asking for clarification of the term "We". No need to over react so. I am in no way "worried", and only trying to participate in the discussion. Seems like many around this forum are a bit to oversensitive about simple comments in a forum meant to communicate ideas from all perspectives of it's user base. The need for name calling and juvenile put downs are a bit to common these days in this and other message forums around the net. Yet another example of our societies current lack of capacity to communicate and discuss issues in a civil and educated way.
“First feel fear, then get angry. Then go with your life into the fight.” - Bill Mollison
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FanFiltration said:
Gosh! No need to be so defensive, as I was only asking for clarification of the term "We". No need to over react so. I am in no way "worried", and only trying to participate in the discussion. Seems like many around this forum are a bit to oversensitive about simple comments in a forum meant to communicate ideas from all perspectives of it's user base. The need for name calling and juvenile put downs are a bit to common these days in this and other message forums around the net. Yet another example of our societies current lack of capacity to communicate and discuss issues in a civil and educated way.
Gosh! No need to be so defensive, as I was only asking for clarification of the term "We". No need to over react so. I am in no way "worried", and only trying to participate in the discussion. Seems like many around this forum are a bit to oversensitive about simple comments in a forum meant to communicate ideas from all perspectives of it's user base. The need for name calling and juvenile put downs are a bit to common these days in this and other message forums around the net. Yet another example of our societies current lack of capacity to communicate and discuss issues in a civil and educated way.
I'd suggest you look at your own behavior first. Nowhere was I being defensive. I was more annoyed by your worthless point than anything.
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
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Few people on this planet will stand up for Saddam. But there is every reason in the world to criticize the decision to invade when we were engaged in more important matters elsewhere, the execution of the post-war "plan" and the stubborn adherence to a failed policy because to admit a mistake opens one up to liabilities of the gravest sort. Mission Accomplished indeed.