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Kingdom of the Crystal Skull Edit Suggestions — Page 29

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Thinking about Indy's ending...  even the end of Raiders is not so explicit. Does the power of the Ark let Indy and Marion live just because they "closed" their eyes? Or because the Ark "knows" who are the good and the bad people?

This alien obviously knows that Spalko is a bad person, he can read her mind. So as a "gift" he confronts her to the horrible things past and future done in the name of communism (newsreels). And bam! head explodes.

It's not that bad. I'm open to others ideas, but for now it's the best one. It's no radical change from the movie though, but it adds a bit of an explanation about what happens.

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 (Edited)

So, either the "newsreel" footage, which won't necessarily be newsreel footage, but a mix of historical and disturbing footage...OR we've got the twelve skeletons circling her causing her to explode...OR just a simple (yet slighly less-satisfying) edit of the original version that is somewhat alien-free.  Those are our best options so far. 

Still waiting for this miracle bomb Imperial Fighter keeps threatening to drop...Better be good.  LOL!  ;-)

And we're still open to any and all random, crazy suggestions...preferably ones that don't rely on CGI.  I doubt any of us faneditors have Rob Coleman and his staff tied up in our basement.

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While we're waiting...why don't we discuss how/why Stargate was able to pull off the whole "aliens as ancient Gods" concept so much better than Indy 4?  Essentially, it's the same story.  Why did it fall so flat in Kingdom?  And how can we take some of that same dynamic that made Stargate work and infuse it into Indy 4?    

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I think its because Stargate tried to fit in with existing mythology.  Mysterious Crystal Skulls, no one knows about.  A council of 13 "gods" in a circle could be anything.  What 13?  Is that a significant thing somewhere?  Stargate (the series at least) had several aliens admittedly pretending to be gods still going by the names we gave them.  We have no explanation (that I can remember) of the Indy4 aliens, whose gods they were supposed to represent, how much technology and wonders of the worlds they are responsible for, why we would represent any of them as looking human.

Everyone knows the Ark and the Grail.  No one knows about Crystal Skulls, or a lost tribe they made up to fit their own mythology.  Instead of going with something everyone knows, they started with something real and added their own fake backstory instead of using REAL backstory and explaining it using aliens.

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 (Edited)

I haven't seen Stargate since it first came out, but I do remember it starting with a speech given by James Spader that showed us actual archeological evidence to at least get our minds wondering if this was possible. In Indy, the only actual interesting archeological link is through the Nazca lines, but we are shown these in a book! Then faintly in the background of the cemetery scene, totally failing to ground anything that is to come. Not to mention that since we see aliens in the first ten minutes with no sense of wonder or magic or buildup, we just kindof dropped into a world where this stuff exists. Indy should build to the fantastic, not start the movie with it. There's a reason ROTLA, TOD, and LC start with artifacts that have no magical (or alien) properties.

Setup and payoff are the keys to a good movie (along with character of course) and Indy 4 has niether a good setup or a good payoff. "Talking head" exposition is not the way you build up anything. 

Also, Indy and the audience see pretty much the same thing in the beginning of the movie (alien, nuke) as we do in the so called climax (alien, ufo).Look at the reveal of Akator... we cut form the gang looking at a skull in the rock, then Boom they're in a temple. The nice wide shot of the temple surrounded by jungle is wasted with a pointless chase down the steps then they go BACK up other steps to get into Akator. It's convaluted, and bland.

Also, regarding the genre, there is never a sense of tension or danger. Now this is due to several small things, but the biggest issue in my opinion is the number of people along for the ride. When you see Indy alone barely escape a situation, you can think that situation was pretty dangerous. But when you see 5 people (all but one being middle-aged, and one being insane) escape something, it obviously wasn't too dangerous to begin with.

Because of all of these things (and more) Indy 4 will never be a GREAT movie. But I think this edit (with your help) can make it a MUCH better one that at least doesn't piss off the fans. That's worth it right there.  

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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Just thought I'd post the end result of the 3D project I've been working on. Here are the 4 images. Everything is CG except the people, who were added from photographs I took and placed in the rendered images in post production. Images are copyrighted.

 

 

Tell me what ya think.

Ryan

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Wow Heks look great man. MAYBE the last guy stands out a little - might be the actual quality of the his photo though. The rest I could look at for days and not realize it was all a lie. Nicely done...

 

...Now focus some of that amazing talent where it matters huh? LOL

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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 (Edited)

TMBTM's idea doesn't sound bad.

The skeletons start spinning, beams shoot from them into Spalko, she starts receiving images and then she melts, explodes, or bleeds from her orifices.

I'm thinking, instead of newsreel footage, how about lots of random disturbing images of death, decay, disease, distruction, etc.  They could be overlayed (transparent) Spalko standing there, or quick, rapid, epileptic siezure inducing intercuts.

While I agree that they should have gone for an artifact or something more embedded into the collective unconscious (a REAL City of Gold, the original Cross, the Fate of Atlantis, the Infernal Machine, proof aliens built the pyrmaids, the last lightsaber (it did happen a LONG time ago)...), the mythology of 13 crystal skulls was not invented for Indy.  It's just more obscure.

Dr. M

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 (Edited)

That's awesome, HeKs!  You really have to look close to perceive any artificiality.  Actually, considering NOTHING but the people are real, that's pretty damn amazing, even looking closely at it.  Good job!  Are you going to school for that?

Good analysis, Jones.  I agree on every point.

And Dr. M, in regard to the beams shooting into Spalko's eyes.  I like that idea, but didn't Belloq do something similar in Raiders?  Ghostbusters ectoplasm shot out of his eyes and struck the Nazi soldiers.  But maybe that similarity would be a good thing.  :)

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Doctor M said:

While I agree that they should have gone for an artifact or something more embedded into the collective unconscious (a REAL City of Gold, the original Cross, the Fate of Atlantis, the Infernal Machine, proof aliens built the pyrmaids, the last lightsaber (it did happen a LONG time ago)...), the mythology of 13 crystal skulls was not invented for Indy.  It's just more obscure.

Really, seriously?  Wow, I had no idea.  And I'm a Huge Nerd.

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jones1899 said:

Wow Heks look great man. MAYBE the last guy stands out a little - might be the actual quality of the his photo though. The rest I could look at for days and not realize it was all a lie. Nicely done...

 

...Now focus some of that amazing talent where it matters huh? LOL

 

Thanks Jones1899.

I think the last guy stands out primarily because he's directly in front of an almost-white wall that's being brightened by sunlight ... but I actually think someone would stand out there even if the whole thing was a photograph. I could have provided him with a bit of a halo of light, which is what would have probably happened in that scenario if it were a real photograph, but I opted for a cleaner look, since that's what the client seemed to want.

 

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jones1899 said:

Wow Heks look great man. MAYBE the last guy stands out a little - might be the actual quality of the his photo though. The rest I could look at for days and not realize it was all a lie. Nicely done...

 

...Now focus some of that amazing talent where it matters huh? LOL

 

Oh ... as for your last comment ... that's why I was working on that Harrison Ford model I posted earlier in this thread ... my main problem is I have very little experience with character modeling so far, though I'll soon immerse myself in it,  and my reference images were low-res DVD screen grabs.

Ryan

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InfoDroid said:

That's awesome, HeKs!  You really have to look close to perceive any artificiality.  Actually, considering NOTHING but the people are real, that's pretty damn amazing, even looking closely at it.  Good job!  Are you going to school for that?

Good analysis, Jones.  I agree on every point.

And Dr. M, in regard to the beams shooting into Spalko's eyes.  I like that idea, but didn't Belloq do something similar in Raiders?  Ghostbusters ectoplasm shot out of his eyes and struck the Nazi soldiers.  But maybe that similarity would be a good thing.  :)

 

Hey InfoDroid,

Thanks. Glad you liked it. No, not going to school for it. It's all self-taught. In fact, of all the many things I do for work I'm self taught in all of them

 

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I don't know HeKS.  There are typos all over those screens.  Maybe it is a glitch in your program. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:D  Those look great!  You should be proud.

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InfoDroid said:

So, either the "newsreel" footage, which won't necessarily be newsreel footage, but a mix of historical and disturbing footage...OR we've got the twelve skeletons circling her causing her to explode...OR just a simple (yet slighly less-satisfying) edit of the original version that is somewhat alien-free.  Those are our best options so far. 

Still waiting for this miracle bomb Imperial Fighter keeps threatening to drop...Better be good.  LOL!  ;-)

 

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a115/doubleofive/IF-Indy4/indy4-27.jpg

"I want to know....I want to know....tell me....I'm ready....I want to know! "

 

Hmmm, looking back at my recent posts, and catching up with those of others since I last found time, it seems some expectations have built-up a little unrealistically recently, compared to what I ACTUALLY said I hoped to show here eventually, lol.

I don't recall promising a miraculous way to perfect the end this movie....but merely hoped to describe a few possibilities on how I'd 're-arrange' / 'snip' certain things in a way that would certainly improve it for myself personally, and that some others might like too.  After all, I also said that I was ONLY going to use un-enhanced, existing footage as the basis for these possibilities....to show an alternative re-working of what's already available.  I don't claim it will be the  DEFINATIVE alternative ending, but it will be ANOTHER alternative ending to consider.  I can say that I'm very pleased with how a couple of things especially seem to have worked out with the existing footage though.  Still, there's only so much that can be done using the original material to begin with.

These descriptions WILL retain a lot of the existing footage, including the 'alien' footage (I've got plenty to say about that however), but I'm 're-ordering' certain things to give a different 'pacing' and 'juxtposition' of shots throughout the overall climax of the movie.  (I'm going to show my own preferred alternative 'intro' for the movie at the same time too)

Unfortunately, it's proving to be a very time-consuming post to get these ideas up here, as the existing footage available has proved to be complicated to re-arrange in some places, and I have to describe some MORE shots yet to doubleofive who is organising them for me.  (He has sent me about 50 so far to do with all this, the majority of which require descriptive details of some sort worked around them!)  However, I'm trying to get it all done as soon as is possible for those interersted, and should hopefully be wrapped-up within the next few days.

In the meantime, it's been of great interest to see the other ending alternatives being considered at the moment. 

Oh, and that's some terrific work there, by the way HeKs.

 

 

 

 

 

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Question:  How many days would you guys say had passed between Indy's FBI interrogation and Orellana's Cradle? 

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Imp, being all too familiar with the footage we have to work with, I for one was going to be very surprised if you had a miracle fix to the climax. But every new idea is very welcome so we are looking forward to it nonetheless. No pressure. 

 

Info, I'd say 4 days would have passed. Why?

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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I think he will try to restructure Crystal Skull in a similar way as he did with his Temple of Doom edit. Am I right? BTW, I really enjoyed your take on Temple, Infodroid. And on Last Crusade. Thanks for my new "official" versions. ;-) 

My guess is 2-3 days. But could be a week just the same.

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Thanks, m.s!  Yes, you're right about the structure.  It's similar to what I did with Temple.  And OMG it feels so much more like INDY again!  :)

Originally posted on FE.org:

Okay, guys...I'm back to actively editing this. Gaith got me charged up, reignited my interest in this movie. Should be completed within a month or so.

Here's what to expect: It's going to be a very unique arrangement of the scenes. Timeline has been rearranged to make it more interesting to watch. In addition to that, I've eliminated the weird candy coloring and desaturated and darkened up the picture to give it that washed-out, almost Saving Private Ryan look. This film, like AOTC, really benefits from this treatment.

-We start with the Lucasfilm logo and a black-and-white version of the very last scene of Raiders with Indy and Marion on the steps and the subsequent scene of the Ark being crated and hidden away in the warehouse. (Thanks to Gaith's suggestion. I thought it sounded crazy at first, LOL, then I tried it and really loved it. It's a nice little preamble which happens to be relevant to both the Indy/Marion relationship and the warehouse scene we see later.)

-Then, as the Paramount logo fades into the pointed stone spire at the graveyard in Orellana's Cradle. We go underground into an opening credits sequence I've cut as close as I could to echo the feeling of the very beginning of Raiders. Not a lot of dialogue at first. It's dark and mysterious. Title reads: PERU 1957. Indy, his face almost disappearing into the shadows of the cave he's navigating...his scared-stiff sidekick trailing along behind him...

-They find the crystal skull and are amazed..."What IS this thing?"

-Fade to a jet flying overhead...jeeps pulling up to a military base. Title reads: SEVERAL DAYS EARLIER. (Not sure if I should keep it like this, or specify the number of days.)  "I had no reason to beleive Mac was a spy". Cut inside to interrogation room, Indy sitting at table. "We did twenty...thirty missions together in the Pacific." The scene plays out up to: "What was in the steel box they took?" "You tell us..." comes the response, as we cut to trucks pulling up to a checkpoint in the desert. "You've seen it before." Title reads: NEVADA 1957. The Russians shoot the soldiers and drive further into the desert toward the base...American flag waving as they speed away.

-Cut to Indy looking defiantly at the interrogators. "It was the middle of the night, I was thrown into a bus with blacked-out windows...etc." up to "And we were threatened with treason if we ever talked about it. So you tell me...what was in the box?!?" Cut to trunk being opened. Mac is dragged out. So is Indy.

-Replaced "Not as easy as it used to be" with trailer version. Cut all banter between Mac and Indy and Dovchenko. Now, Dovchenko's jeep pulls up, Mac groans and Dovchneko balls up a fist to slug Indy. Spalko stops him. "Where was he found?" "They were digging in the dirt looking for this stuff." Stuff gets thrown on the ground and breaks, immediately followed by Spalko's FBI file getting thrown on the table in front of Indy in the interrogation room. "Yeah, that was her. Who is she?" "Irina Spalko, Stalin's fair-haired girl...etc..etc...if you call psychic research science."

-Cut to the giant Hangar 51 doors opening. General Ross continues his description through voiceover as they walk into the hangar. "She's leading teams from the Kremlin all over the world looking for...etc."

-Hangar scene continues with heavy editing for pacing, dialogue, creaky editing, etc. No compass jokes. No "I like Ike." No "You don't know him!" being screamed 40 times. And I kept the reveal of the alien body hidden, so we don't really know what's in the box until later. I like it better that way.

-All prairie dog shots were removed, some shots were re-arranged and most of the comedy schtick on the rocket sled is edited out. I left just enough in there to keep the classic Indy charm.

-Transition from Indy hiding from the Russians, fading to dawn. "So what exactly am I being accused of?" "Nothing yet....etc, etc." Scene plays out from there until we go to the college.

That's all I'll elaborate on for now. I'll get some more details up here soon.

I'd like to know the general consensus on the conversation Indy and Mutt have when they arrive at Peru. "Don Pancho Villa" and all that. I always found it strange that the uneducated Mutt even knew who Pancho Villa was. It was a strange, after-school special-like conversation intended to provide some more backstory for Mutt's character. In my opinion, it's not really needed and I'd like to cut it out. But I'd like to know how other people feel about that scene.

More later.

--ID

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 (Edited)

Wow. Glad to hear you're picking it back up Info. I'm sure the entire board will be glad to hear someone with your experience is finally trying to make this movie decent. 

Really interesting ideas here too. Can't wait to hear more and yes I intend to bug you until you post the rest of your plans. lol

As for the Pancho Villa stuff, while I see your reason for cutting it, it does establish Mutt's swordfighting skills and I like Indy talking about his mother and his home life. Not to mention the scene focuses a lot on Indy himself, which we will be losing once they get to the jungle. I'd vote to keep it. And i'd imagine Mutt would know of Pancho considering his relationship with Ox and Marion. 

I have a TON of questions for you regarding your thoughts on certain bits of dialogue and such. But first of all:

1. Which format is your edit going to be done in? 

2. Who's Gaith? Did he post ideas on Indy 4 that got you interested or something?

3. Can you post a pic of your color correction? I'd like to post a pick of mine as well but I don' t know how to take a screenshot. 

4. How long do you antcipate this edit being?

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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 (Edited)
InfoDroid said:

Thanks, m.s!  Yes, you're right about the structure.  It's similar to what I did with Temple.  And OMG it feels so much more like INDY again!  :)

Originally posted on FE.com:

Sounds awesome!  I love the idea of intercutting the FBI interrogation with the opening scenes.  It helps you to skip huge chunks of the movie and not have any continuity problems.  Genius!

 

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InfoDroid said:

Thanks, m.s!  Yes, you're right about the structure.  It's similar to what I did with Temple.  And OMG it feels so much more like INDY again!  :)

Originally posted on FE.com:

Okay, guys...I'm back to actively editing this. Gaith got me charged up, reignited my interest in this movie. Should be completed within a month or so.

Here's what to expect: It's going to be a very unique arrangement of the scenes. Timeline has been rearranged to make it more interesting to watch. In addition to that, I've eliminated the weird candy coloring and desaturated and darkened up the picture to give it that washed-out, almost Saving Private Ryan look. This film, like AOTC, really benefits from this treatment.

-We start with the Lucasfilm logo and a black-and-white version of the very last scene of Raiders with Indy and Marion on the steps and the subsequent scene of the Ark being crated and hidden away in the warehouse. (Thanks to Gaith's suggestion. I thought it sounded crazy at first, LOL, then I tried it and really loved it. It's a nice little preamble which happens to be relevant to both the Indy/Marion relationship and the warehouse scene we see later.)

-Then, as the Paramount logo fades into the pointed stone spire at the graveyard in Orellana's Cradle. We go underground into an opening credits sequence I've cut as close as I could to echo the feeling of the very beginning of Raiders. Not a lot of dialogue at first. It's dark and mysterious. Title reads: PERU 1957. Indy, his face almost disappearing into the shadows of the cave he's navigating...his scared-stiff sidekick trailing along behind him...

-They find the crystal skull and are amazed..."What IS this thing?"

-Fade to a jet flying overhead...jeeps pulling up to a military base. Title reads: SEVERAL DAYS EARLIER. (Not sure if I should keep it like this, or specify the number of days.)  "I had no reason to beleive Mac was a spy". Cut inside to interrogation room, Indy sitting at table. "We did twenty...thirty missions together in the Pacific." The scene plays out up to: "What was in the steel box they took?" "You tell us..." comes the response, as we cut to trucks pulling up to a checkpoint in the desert. "You've seen it before." Title reads: NEVADA 1957. The Russians shoot the soldiers and drive further into the desert toward the base...American flag waving as they speed away.

-Cut to Indy looking defiantly at the interrogators. "It was the middle of the night, I was thrown into a bus with blacked-out windows...etc." up to "And we were threatened with treason if we ever talked about it. So you tell me...what was in the box?!?" Cut to trunk being opened. Mac is dragged out. So is Indy.

-Replaced "Not as easy as it used to be" with trailer version. Cut all banter between Mac and Indy and Dovchenko. Now, Dovchenko's jeep pulls up, Mac groans and Dovchneko balls up a fist to slug Indy. Spalko stops him. "Where was he found?" "They were digging in the dirt looking for this stuff." Stuff gets thrown on the ground and breaks, immediately followed by Spalko's FBI file getting thrown on the table in front of Indy in the interrogation room. "Yeah, that was her. Who is she?" "Irina Spalko, Stalin's fair-haired girl...etc..etc...if you call psychic research science."

-Cut to the giant Hangar 51 doors opening. General Ross continues his description through voiceover as they walk into the hangar. "She's leading teams from the Kremlin all over the world looking for...etc."

-Hangar scene continues with heavy editing for pacing, dialogue, creaky editing, etc. No compass jokes. No "I like Ike." No "You don't know him!" being screamed 40 times. And I kept the reveal of the alien body hidden, so we don't really know what's in the box until later. I like it better that way.

-All prairie dog shots were removed, some shots were re-arranged and most of the comedy schtick on the rocket sled is edited out. I left just enough in there to keep the classic Indy charm.

-Transition from Indy hiding from the Russians, fading to dawn. "So what exactly am I being accused of?" "Nothing yet....etc, etc." Scene plays out from there until we go to the college.

That's all I'll elaborate on for now. I'll get some more details up here soon.

I'd like to know the general consensus on the conversation Indy and Mutt have when they arrive at Peru. "Don Pancho Villa" and all that. I always found it strange that the uneducated Mutt even knew who Pancho Villa was. It was a strange, after-school special-like conversation intended to provide some more backstory for Mutt's character. In my opinion, it's not really needed and I'd like to cut it out. But I'd like to know how other people feel about that scene.

More later.

--ID

 

 Great ideas. Like doubleofive said, the intercutting will really move the film along. Good job!

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jones1899 said:

I have a TON of questions for you regarding your thoughts on certain bits of dialogue and such. But first of all:

1. Which format is your edit going to be done in? 

2. Who's Gaith? Did he post ideas on Indy 4 that got you interested or something?

3. Can you post a pic of your color correction? I'd like to post a pick of mine as well but I don' t know how to take a screenshot. 

4. How long do you antcipate this edit being?

Thanks for the encouragement, Guys.  :) 

1.  Format is going to be NTSC DVD, 5.1 surround.

2.  Gaith is a forum-member on FE who contributed greatly to my Unholy Edition of Last Crusade.  He PM'd me some ideas and kind of re-lit the spark on this for me a couple weeks ago.

3.  Will post screenshots when I get home tonight.

4.  Edit will probably be around 90-100 minutes.  Depending on how the Jungle Chase works out.  LOL!

I also want to say that this is in no way meant to subvert Jones1899's efforts on his edit.  He's doing a great job and should be commended.  Our edits will be completely different anyway.  He's keeping the Nuke scene for instance, and in mine...it uh, "goes the way of the dodo."  :)  This is just my chance to complete a trilogy of edits I promised a long time ago.     

Oh, and good points raised on the Mutt scene.  I had remembered the "dropped out of school" bit but forgot he'd been tutored by Oxley.  So it should stay?