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Kingdom of the Crystal Skull Edit Suggestions — Page 15

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jones1899 said:

To be honest, I didn't notice the name thing in the 3 times I've seen KOTCS. Please note that only ONE of those three viewings were for pleasure (or a hope of pleasure) the other two were for edits. Anyway, I would say it would be pretty dumb for him to start shying away from using Indy as his name and instead going for Henry. Geez, we need to retain as much of OT as possible I say - especially the fella's damn name...

As for Ox, since we can't cut the dumbass completely, there are several things we can do to make him less TERRIBLE. Heks, take a look at the lists topdawg and I put together in regards to Ox especially. For example, the scene where we meet Ox dancing and prancing can be improved greatly, the "help" gag during the quick sand scene can work better and the sand/obelisk puzzle can be solved by Indy instead of Ox with a few simple edits. Check them out. See what you think.

 

I'd be happy to look at those lists again. Would you mind reminding me what page of this thread they're on?

I'm also thinking that once I finish my comprehensive list, we can all start looking at individual scenes that might be improved through subtle changes to order, performances (using bonus feature takes), effects, etc. I'm thinking, for example, of some of the changes laser made to the narrative flow of the jungle chase, like reordering where Mutt finds the sword to match up better with Spalko taking out hers. It was a subtle change but rather brilliant in my opinion.

Ryan

 

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HeKS said: So even after the reconciliation at the end of LC, they still make it clear that he wants to keep using Indiana and not switch to Henry Jones Jr.

The finale of LC takes place 18 years prior to KotCS...people change. It's clear from Skull that Indy is both:

A. Now comfortable with being Henry Jones, jr. He now uses it as his name in professional circles, ie: at college.
B. Still thinks of himself as Indy first and foremost. His first instinct when meeting Ox is to call himself Indiana.

In my opinion, however, no explanation would be good enough considering the movie is called INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL


And the main character is Indiana Jones. Just because he has another name that he uses, doesn't really change that. No one is saying that he should or does go by Henry, jr. exclusively.

It's no different to Bruce Wayne being the main character in "Batman Begins".


Either way, it's not as though I have an objection to someone "Indy-ing" up the dialogue. :)

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It's on page one - the first post has the full list then additional changes. The Ox stuff IS sort of jumping the gun though if we're taking things slow and in order.

Also, though I think we've got a lot of great stuff here and more to come, I still think we're gonna need to recruit someone to actually make all of this a reality. Many of these things will require someone experienced with this sort of thing so that it all looks seamless. So either we find someone or we pay Laser's salary so he can quit his job and do this full time :)

 

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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jones1899 said:

It's on page one - the first post has the full list then additional changes. The Ox stuff IS sort of jumping the gun though if we're taking things slow and in order.

Also, though I think we've got a lot of great stuff here and more to come, I still think we're gonna need to recruit someone to actually make all of this a reality. Many of these things will require someone experienced with this sort of thing so that it all looks seamless. So either we find someone or we pay Laser's salary so he can quit his job and do this full time :)

 

Or we could all pitch in and pay him for his time ... at least partially ... considering he wanted to do it for himself too. Seriously. We should see what his rate is and how long it would take him to do the job and then decide if a bunch of us are willing to split that cost to get him to do it.

Ryan

 

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Before you do anything stupid (like paying me), I'll hit the brakes right away. The whole thing is just a hobby-project for me, and it's not only my job that's keeping me away from the edit. I'm doing it on the side, when I feel like it, and that's it.

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Laserschwert said:

Before you do anything stupid (like paying me), I'll hit the brakes right away. The whole thing is just a hobby-project for me, and it's not only my job that's keeping me away from the edit. I'm doing it on the side, when I feel like it, and that's it.

 

Hi Laser,

Thanks for joining in. Ok, that's fair enough. Do you have any expectation for when you might want to do some more work on this? At the moment we're knee-deep in figuring out good edits, so I imagine it will be a few weeks before we have any kind of finished/polished list. Do you think you might be willing to do a bit more work on this in the next month or so? And do you have any idea how long a project of this sort might take you?

Take care,

Ryan

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As said, I won't give any time-frames, so don't put all your hopes just in me.

Your editing suggestions look good, and I think they provide a nice template to follow. So with a detailed editing instruction like that it shouldn't take too long to change a scene. Editing is the easier part of any changes... digital changes take a lot more time to do, and I think the editing itself can be learned quite quickly... the web is full of tutorials regarding that (and I think there are some links in this thread as well).

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Well, I definitely don't want to pressure Laser into working on it. He'll do it when he's ready - if he's ready and I was only joking about the paying thing. Which is why I think we need to just hope for someone else to come in and do work on this. Laser did great work, but I know I wouldn't want to be bugged by anyone to do something I wasn't totally into. Maybe we can look over at fanedits.rog

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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Laserschwert said:

As said, I won't give any time-frames, so don't put all your hopes just in me.

Your editing suggestions look good, and I think they provide a nice template to follow. So with a detailed editing instruction like that it shouldn't take too long to change a scene. Editing is the easier part of any changes... digital changes take a lot more time to do, and I think the editing itself can be learned quite quickly... the web is full of tutorials regarding that (and I think there are some links in this thread as well).

 

Ok, so say we handled the basic editing part of things ... what kind of "digital changes" are you capable of doing? Can you give some examples? Cause if we know what you can achieve on that side, it may inform some editing decisions and open up a few doors to how to rework things that might otherwise be closed to us.

Ryan

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jones1899 said:

Well, I definitely don't want to pressure Laser into working on it. He'll do it when he's ready - if he's ready and I was only joking about the paying thing. Which is why I think we need to just hope for someone else to come in and do work on this. Laser did great work, but I know I wouldn't want to be bugged by anyone to do something I wasn't totally into. Maybe we can look over at fanedits.rog

 

Do you feel like taking it upon yourself to see if you can find one or more people who might be interested  in taking on the basic editing aspect of the project (and who are capable of quality work)? I'm pretty swamped with my own work at the moment, so figuring out edits is just about exhausting my extra time.

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To be honest I would love to find someone to help us out here, but it won't be easy. I've asked around a bit here and on the other site - even around my work - but nobody's interested it seems. 

Sucks. We have the makings of a movie that actually somewhat deserves to stand beside the OT. 

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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jones1899 said:

To be honest I would love to find someone to help us out here, but it won't be easy. I've asked around a bit here and on the other site - even around my work - but nobody's interested it seems. 

Sucks. We have the makings of a movie that actually somewhat deserves to stand beside the OT. 

 

Well, it's starting to look like I may have no choice but to learn to do this myself. Ah well, one thing at a time. I'm about to post some thoughts on the next part of the FBI scene and I wouldn't mind some feedback

Ryan

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So the fella who's finishing up the Superman Returns edit over at fanedit.org said while he was watching Indy 4 he thought it would be his next editing project... until he KEPT watching Indy 4 and deemed it all hopeless. Understandable, no doubt, but maybe we can change his mind. The work he's doing on Supes is pretty great - even changing the color of Superman's costume.

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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He has a full time job for an effects company and has been trying to finish his Superman Returns edit for years.  Even if he finsihes it within a couple of months, there's no way he's gonna to have anything Indy related finished this year.

 

To Heks and Jones1899, you two seem very interested in getting an edit done.  Why don't you get together, buy some software and look at some tutorials and work on the project yourselves, because obsessively asking for someone else to do it obviously isn't gonna to happen.

 

 

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 (Edited)

Surely you understand the difference between somebody who takes a crash course in such software as opposed to the quality you get from an experienced professional. No edit is worth doing unless it is entirely seamless. 

Understand?

Also, this "obsessive asking" you're refering to is simply a hope that someone finishes the fine work they've started. I've made it a point to express my understanding that Laser (for instance) is busy and that I just hope someone  who has the experience for what looks to be some pretty heavy edits can do an edit of this film. You mentioned yourself that the Superman Returns edit is being done by a special effects professional. 

And you want US to just pick up some software and learn it? Come on...

I would LOVE to do it myself, if I could...

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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jones1899 said:

Surely you understand the difference between somebody who takes a crash course in such software as opposed to the quality you get from an experienced professional. No edit is worth doing unless it is entirely seamless. 

Understand?

Also, this "obsessive asking" you're refering to is simply a hope that someone finishes the fine work they've started. I've made it a point to express my understanding that Laser (for instance) is busy and that I just hope someone  who has the experience for what looks to be some pretty heavy edits can do an edit of this film. You mentioned yourself that the Superman Returns edit is being done by a special effects professional. 

And you want US to just pick up some software and learn it? Come on...

I would LOVE to do it myself, if I could...

I agree with you jones, though I will say that I do have Premiere and SOME experience with video work, as well as some decent experience with 3D modeling. So if I got my hands on some good tutorials, I could probably do a pretty good job of this ... I'm a very quick study, but I need something to study :) When it comes to compositing, I have no experience at all, so that would probably take more time.

 

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Not sure if this came up, but I found it on one of those "film flubs" websites: in the film Indy says the Spanish came through looking for the city of gold in the 15th century. But they came through in the 1500's, so it was actually the 16th century. Not sure if there's a way to tweak the sound so he says 16th...

 

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 (Edited)

Alright, I need some thoughts on the second part of the interrogation scene, starting with the entrance of General Ross. Based on the changes we've made thus far, Indy never climbs in that fridge, so we HAVE to remove the line where Ross says, "Don't you know it's dangerous to climb into a refrigerator? Those things can be deathtraps!"

The problem I'm having is that it's one long shot from when he enters until after he says that line with no camera angle changes, in which time Indy stands up, which makes it very difficult to cut out that line smoothly. I THINK I've come up with a solution, but I need another pair of eyes. Ironically, my solution would actually solve a continuity error in the scene as it is now, but I'll point that out in a second.

Alright, Ross starts talking pretty much the instant he starts entering the room, however, you don't see his lips moving until he's around the other side of FBI 1. When Ross enters, the camera moves to him, and as it pans back to take in the rest of the set, FBI 2, who had been sitting a second earlier, is suddenly standing. To solve this will, I think, take a rather sophisticated edit which will involve combining aspects of several separate frame sequences. Here's what I'm thinking...

OPTION 1:

- Camera cuts to Ross entering the room, it starts to pan back into the room, but before Indy comes into frame we cut to the ealier shot where FBI 2 sits down just before saying "... of America, my country." We take the frames of him going from standing to sitting and we reverse them and slow them down a bit, so he looks like he's getting up rather than sitting down. His mouth will be moving slightly, but it looks like it could just be exertion of standing ... this will especially be true if it's slightly slowed down.

- Now, we grab the shot where FBI 1 says, "you tell us.." to Indy and Indy turns to look at him. I'm pretty sure the camera is positioned exactly the same for this turning shot as the shot of FBI 2 sitting down above that we're reversing. We overlay the frames of Indy turning in response to FBI 1 (slightly sped up) over the frames that now have FBI 2 standing up, cropping off both the left and right sides of the frames of Indy turning so the two shots melt into each other and only Indy is replaced in the underlying shot. The effect is that when Ross enters the room, FBI 2 starts to stand (resolving the incontinuity of having FBI 2 sitting in one shot and standing a second later in another shot) and Indy turns to look in Ross' direction ... and because we're basically only replacing Indy in the reversed shot of FBI 2 sitting down, FBI 1 has not yet come into frame, so Indy turning to look in Ross' direction actually looks like he's turning to Ross because FBI 1 isn't in the frame ... making this whole thing seem like an unused shot. (You may need to read that again a few times)

- But we're not done. The primary problem we have is that Indy begins to stand WHILE Ross is delivering the lines we need to cut and it all happens in one long panning shot. So we need to be able to seamlessly cut out Ross' lines while not ending up with a continuity problem of Indy sitting one second and standing the next, shaking Ross' hand. The problem is compounded by the fact that we don't really have any unused shots that we can put in to have him stand up to greet ross out of frame. At least we don't have an unused shot to solve the problem yet. What we need is something to totally block the screen for about a second and a half that will block Indy from the camera's view, allowing him to seemingly get up off camera. So what we're gonna do is go back to the those frames of FBI 2 sitting down, cause a few seconds after he sits, FBI 1 leans into frame on the same side of the table as the camera is positioned and puts his hands on the table (though his hands are out of frame). We need to cut him out of those frames, increase his size and move him over to the right, which would be closer to camera, and slow him down slightly. The effect will be that he briefly blocks Indy and his surrounding area out of screen, right up to the top of frame, long enough to appear to give Indy time to stand.

- We then cut back to the original panning shot after Indy has stood and while he's shaking Ross' hand saying, "Good to see you, too, Bob".

So, put that all together and what we appear to have is Ross entering room saying "Thank God, Indy", followed by an unused shot of FBI 2 starting to stand, a split second later Indy quickly looking in the direction of the door and Ross, FBI 1 leaning into camera blocking view of Indy for a second or so, then the camera switching angles to get a view of Indy again who has already stood up and is shaking Ross' hand. And the great thing is it resolves a current incontinuity and everyone stays where they should be so that they'll be in the right place when we cut back to the original shot. The reason we needed to that bit about having Indy turn is because it will cut down the time one would expect for him to be standing and shaking hands with Ross. If he has already turned to look at him, you will expect it to take him less time to get up than if he's facing away one second and standing shaking his hand the next ... but it doesn't take much more than a second to stand and shake the hand of someone you see walking toward you.

OPTION 2:

- Find some shot in the scene we can cut to immediately after Ross enters room and says, "Thank God, Indy", long enough to allow Indy to stand and start shaking Ross hand before cutting back to him saying, "Good to see you, too, Bob." Of course, I've watched this scene literally about 40 times and haven't found one, but I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

So some people PLEASE take a look at this scene and try to picture my option 1 and see if you think it might work.

Ryan

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 (Edited)

Ok, I'm gonna try posting some images I uploaded to flickr. These are fairly quick photoshop manipulations to show the key frames in my suggestion in option 1 above to smoothly remove Ross' offending lines about the fridge. The third and fourth images don't actually exist in the film ... they are compilations of various frames, taken from video segments that I think could be edited and combined the same way.

1- http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/3193052231_74b7f924bc_o.jpg

2 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3193052237_0a4077d22f_o.jpg

3 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/3193052245_abcafd2355_o.jpg

4 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/3193052247_0d22c2cd77_o.jpg

(or this possible alternate for 4 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3193071241_e4e83d76d7_o.jpg)

5 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3193052253_20ecbc32e9_o.jpg

It's a very quick job, but it should give an idea of what I'm suggesting for the flow of that bit of the scene.

Ryan

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Is it bad that I asked for KotCS for my birthday just so I could be justified in downloading whatever edit comes out of this thread?

I don't remember if I mentioned it on this thread before, but my main problem with this movie is that I never felt the characters were in any danger.  I'm seeing it in the theater for the first time and not once was I worried for the characters.  I still get stressed out during Temple of Doom with the collapsing ceiling, but there wasn't anything like that in KotCS.  The part where I expected to find traps or whatever (the graveyard), all I got were pointless tribal ninjas and Indy almost running into unfamiliar terriority with his son in tow!  Every step into the temple or wherever I expected Indy to just stop everyone so he could at least CHECK for traps, but he didn't seem to care, which made me not care either.

If the characters don't care about their own safety, how are we supposed to?

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Heks, glad to hear you have some experience. It's a head start at least. 

Your interrogation edit looks like it just might work. Of course seeing in action is sometimes a different beast. Looking good so far though. 

As for the sense of danger opst, I totally agree. Hopefully by cutting the goofy shit, adding more thrilling and familiar music, and making some key edits to such scenes as the staircase trap, the quicksand, the jungle chase, the water in the end, etc.

List of propsed changes to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-Edit-Suggestions/topic/9732/

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 (Edited)
jones1899 said:

Surely you understand the difference between somebody who takes a crash course in such software as opposed to the quality you get from an experienced professional. No edit is worth doing unless it is entirely seamless. 

I have to agree with this too, when it comes to re-watching an edit you love.  The first time's fine for the curiousity value, but it's just plain distracting if it's riddled with bad edits throughout.  There is a certain fan edit (which shall remain nameless) of a sorely disappointing movie, that has some fantastic editing ideas / choices throughout.

Unfortunately, although this edit improved on the poorer original version immensely, I just can't watch it again now, nor recommend it to others, since it has been badly cut too many times between the scenes, giving lots of 'pops' and 'clicks', and abruptly interrupted  sound / sound fx etc.  throughout.

 

I do believe that Indy 4 can be tweaked to be a far more enjoyable watch by some of the guys here, and I just hope someone with some decent editing skills / programs does work on it.

Oh, and doubleofive, I haven't even bought it yet either, since I was so under-whelmed at the time I saw it in the cinema!  You made a good point there, by the way.  However, I intend to now, to see some of the ideas that have been thrown about here so far, and in the hope there is a decent edit by someone one day.... :)

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I'm thinking I might even be able to make Indy stand up in that shot where he's masked by FBI 1. Here's the order of shots

1 -

2 -

3 -

4 -

5 -

Everyone is in the proper place through the transition, looking at the right people, and everyone ends up in the position they should be for this final shot.

Ryan