Kingdom of the Crystal Skull Edit Suggestions — Page 14

jones1899 said:

Thanks. Sounds like it might work nicely. Now let's just hope this edit gets made somehow...

I'm about to post a retooling of the whole nuke test site town scene. Finishing up the list of changes in the next few minutes. Keep your eyes here cause I'd like some suggestions.

Ryan

Ok. Here goes. Covering minutes 15-22. Thoughts appreciated...

-------- 15 MINUTE MARK --------

- When Mac is in the truck with the commie driving towards Indy, Mac says "you don't know him" too many times. I think it should go, "Don't get clever, Boris. You don't know him." Then it should skip the "know him. know him." Cut to the shot outside the car but remove the first two times Mac says "You don't know him", leave in the next time he says it but leave out all the rest until "You don't know him. You don't know..." CRASH. At the very least take out where he says "know him. know him.".

- On rocket sled, maybe take out shot of the their faces near the start being pulled tight by the wind, so we just see it take off, continue down the tunnel, then exit to the outside. Remove the stupid gopher shots. I'm personally fine with the stuff after the sled stops. It's a little silly, but it's in the vein of Last Crusade and we've taken out a fair bit of stupidity up to this point.

- Here's the big tough one ... the nuked fridge. I'm wondering if there's a way to rework this whole section by entirely removing Indy from the test town. Here's what I'm thinking off the top of my head, but I'd like some help with this one...

##################### DOOMSTOWN REVISITED

I'm thinking that the people in the test town may or may not be looking for Indy, but even if they are, it doesn't mean he has to actually be there. What if we change the order so that it goes like this:

1) Show the car driving through the town when Indy jumps over the fence but zoom in slightly to take Indy climbing over the fence out of frame

2) Show establishing shots in the town of the manequins that Indy sees after he realizes it's fake people in the house and runs outside. Start the warning and instructions for the blast, continue showing the various shots of manequins but remove Indy reaction shots. Audio will need to be stretched out a bit because of the removal of reaction shots, so it can be stretched out over the zoom out from the town to the bomb.

3) Show soldiers jumping into car (try to remove Indy's "wait, wait" from off screen). Cut out Indy running into scene.

4) As the car of soldiers drives away, hitting some manequins, I'm pretty sure a bit of photoshop work could remove Indy from the frame long enough to get the car out of frame. Cut as soon as car is out of frame to remove Indy running up and saying, "Sure! Great! Don't wait for me!" Briefly show car driving away, removing Indy from frame again.

5) Show Indy cresting the hill from earlier when town first comes into view, show the closer up view from that shot.

6) Cut to interior shot of house after Indy's in the fridge, just to show the initial flash of the blast, which I think works even without knowing Indy is there because of the juxtaposition of the quiet violence starting outside with the quiet (dead?) calm inside. Continue through manequins catching fire and melting and the houses exploding.

7) Show car driving away with blast catching up, but remove flying fridge. Remove reaction of looking up at fridge, go straight to car being engulfed by smoke.

8) Take out fridge landing, bouncing and sliding to stop. Take out Indy falling out of fridge. Cut in after he's fallen out but zoom in a bit to obscure fridge behind him, or remove fridge from fame if possible. Show him starting to get up from behind, but cut in and out of that shot so we don't see the gopher ... or better yet, remove gopher from frame.

9) Show Indy walk up the hill and see the mushroom cloud.

So, now this scene never has Indy in the town. Instead, it makes it seem he took longer to get to the top of the hill overlooking the town and that the commies looking for him got there first, only to realize they were just in time for the blast. As they drive out of town, Indy just crests the hill and sees the town for the first time, but unlike him, we know what's about to happen. We cut back into the town and it immediately explodes, destroying the commies driving away. And when we cut to Indy lying in the ground it seems like the blast knocked him back down the hill he was climbing, and he walks up to see the mushroom cloud ... which means he will still need to be scrubbed down at the FBI interrogation coming up next.

I don't know about anyone else, but that seems to work quite well in my head. One possible change is that there may not be any need to blow up that commie car, considering it seems the only reason that bit is in there is for the fridge out-flying it gag. So we could cut right from the explosion to Indy knocked onto the ground.
#####################

-------- 22 MINUTE MARK --------

Wow. That FBI interogation scene is pretty bad. Fixing that might be even harder than the nuke stuff.

Ryan

I've taken the liberty of typing out the dialog for the whole interrogation scene. I'll post it here whole so everyone has access to it in it's original form, broken down in the same structure as the subtitles. Afterwards I'll go through in another post and strikeout what I think can be removed from the conversation itself. After that I'll try to figure out how the actual cuts can be made and shots adjusted to work with the revised conversation. I encourage other people here to try to do the same so we can take the best of everyone's ideas.

I'm really plugged into this project and interested in it now, so I really hope that laser, marion, and anyone else will want to get back on this soon.

Here it is. Have fun.

--------------------------------------------------------------

INDY 4 - FBI INTERROGATION SCENE DIALOG

INDY: I HAD NO REASON TO BELIVE THAT MAC WAS A SPY.

INDY: HE WAS MI6 WHEN I WAS IN OSS.

INDY: WE DID 20, 30 MISSIONS TOGETHER IN EUROPE AND THE PACIFIC.

FBI 1: Don't wave your war record in our face, Colonel Jones.

FBI 1: We all served.

INDY: No kidding? What side were you on?

FBI 2: I don't think you recognize the gravity of your situation.

FBI 2: You aided and abetted KGB agents

FBI 2: who broke into a top-secret military installation

FBI 2: in the middle of the United States of America, my country.

INDY: What was in the steel box they took?

FBI 1: You tell us. You've seen it before.

INDY: Oh. You mean that Air Force fiasco in '47.

INDY: I was tossed into a bus with blacked-out windows

INDY: and 20 people I wasn't allowed to speak to.

INDY: Hauled out in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere

INDY: on some urgent recovery project and shown what?

INDY: Pieces of wreckage

INDY: and an intensely magnetic shroud covering mutilated remains?

INDY: None of us was ever given the full picture.

INDY: And we were threatened with treason if we ever talked about it.

INDY: So, you tell me, what was in the box?

ROSS: Indy, thank God.

ROSS: Don't you know it's dangerous to climb into a refrigerator?

ROSS: Those things can be deathtraps!

INDY: Good to see you, too, Bob.

ROSS: Relax, boys. I can vouch for Dr. Jones.

INDY: What the hell is going on?

INDY: KGB on American soil? Who is that woman?

FBI 1: Describe her.

INDY: Tall, thin, mid-30s,

INDY: carried a sword of some kind, a rapier, I think.

INDY: Yeah, that's her.

FBI 2: You sure she's here?

INDY: Here and gone. Who is she?

ROSS: Irina Spalko, she was Stalin's fair-haired girl.

ROSS: His favorite scientist, if you can call psychic research science.

FBI 2: General Ross...

ROSS: She's leading teams from the Kremlin all over the world.

ROSS: Scooping up artifacts

ROSS: she thinks might have paranormal military applications.

FBI 2: General Ross!

ROSS: Back off, Paul.

ROSS: Not everyone in the Army's a Commie and certainly not Indy.

INDY: What exactly am I being accused of, besides surviving a nuclear blast? (He stupidly pronounces it "nucular", so this has to go)

FBI 2: Nothing yet.

FBI 2: But frankly your association with George McHale

FBI 2: makes all your activities suspicious, including those during the war.

ROSS: Are you nuts?

ROSS: Do you have any idea how many medals this son of a bitch won?

FBI 2: A great many, I'm sure.

FBI 2: But does he deserve them?

FBI 1: Dr. Jones, let's just say for now that you are of interest to the Bureau.

FBI 2: Of great interest.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ryan

Ok. Here are my suggestions for the dialog. I've removed most of the lame, cheesy and poorly delivered lines, along with references to stuff that hasn't happened in our cut.

Most stuff will just have strikeout, but if it's strikeout, bold and italics it means either that I REALLY think it should come out, or, in some cases, HAS to come out.

--------------------------------------------------------------

INDY 4 - FBI INTERROGATION SCENE DIALOG

INDY: I HAD NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT MAC WAS A SPY.

INDY: HE WAS MI6 WHEN I WAS IN OSS.

INDY: WE DID 20, 30 MISSIONS TOGETHER IN EUROPE AND THE PACIFIC.

FBI 1: Don't wave your war record in our face, Colonel Jones.

FBI 1: We all served.

INDY: No kidding? What side were you on?

FBI 2: I don't think you recognize the gravity of your situation.

FBI 2: You aided and abetted KGB agents

FBI 2: who broke into a top-secret military installation

FBI 2: in the middle of the United States of America, my country.

INDY: What was in the steel box they took?

FBI 1: You tell us. You've seen it before.

INDY: Oh. You mean that Air Force fiasco in '47.

INDY: I was tossed into a bus with blacked-out windows

INDY: and 20 people I wasn't allowed to speak to.

INDY: Hauled out in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere

INDY: on some urgent recovery project and shown what?

INDY: Pieces of wreckage

INDY: and an intensely magnetic shroud covering mutilated remains? (We hid what was in the box/shroud through earlier edits and in this scene he asks what was in it twice! So I don't think he should know about the mutilated remains. It will make his surprise in the tent later seem more reasonable)

INDY: None of us was ever given the full picture.

INDY: And we were threatened with treason if we ever talked about it.

INDY: So, you tell me, what was in the box?

ROSS: Indy, thank God.

ROSS: Don't you know it's dangerous to climb into a refrigerator?

ROSS: Those things can be deathtraps!

INDY: Good to see you, too, Bob. (Bob just says, "thank God," not "good to see you")

ROSS: Relax, boys. I can vouch for Dr. Jones.

INDY: What the hell is going on?

INDY: KGB on American soil? Who is that woman?

FBI 1: Describe her.

INDY: Tall, thin, mid-30s,

INDY: carried a sword of some kind, a rapier, I think.

INDY: Yeah, that's her.

FBI 2: You sure she's here?

INDY: Here and gone. Who is she?

ROSS: Irina Spalko, she was Stalin's fair-haired girl.

ROSS: His favorite scientist, if you can call psychic research science.

FBI 2: General Ross...

ROSS: She's leading teams from the Kremlin all over the world.

ROSS: Scooping up artifacts

ROSS: she thinks might have paranormal military applications.

FBI 2: General Ross!

ROSS: Back off, Paul.

ROSS: Not everyone in the Army's a Commie and certainly not Indy.

INDY: What exactly am I being accused of, besides surviving a nuclear blast? (He stupidly pronounces it "nucular", so this has to go)

FBI 2: Nothing yet.

FBI 2: But frankly your association with George McHale

FBI 2: makes all your activities suspicious, including those during the war.

ROSS: Are you nuts?

ROSS: Do you have any idea how many medals this son of a bitch won?

FBI 2: A great many, I'm sure.

FBI 2: But does he deserve them? (I find these lines really lame and they were poorly delivered. I think Ross' comment flows fine into the following lines)

FBI 1: Dr. Jones, let's just say for now that you are of interest to the Bureau.

FBI 2: Of great interest.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now, getting this to work visually is a whole other thing, because in a few cases it involves more than just cutting early. I'll be working on this problem next.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Lots of good stuff here.

Let's start with the nuke: I think your scene would work just fine as far as the edit goes, but what worries me is the fact that Indy is now just watching something spectacular take place as opposed to being knee deep in the action like usual. Now, I realize there are vastly differing opinions on him actually surviving the blast in a fridge, but I still think that if take out the goofiness of "fine don't wait for me", edit out the fridge flying over the car, cut a few fridge bounces, and have a longer more dramatic delay before the fridge door opens, AND maybe (if possible) not even see Indy get to his feet, but cut after the door flops open, it would be a vast improvement over whats there originaly. Yes, we do have the problem that everything else Indy faces seems to be "kid's play" in comparison, but if we are able to add more of a sense of danger to the later scenes where his actual family is at risk then we might be in better shape. What do you think?

Well, I agree that what you're suggesting would be better than what's there now, but I kinda feel like leaving in this scene presents more problems than it's worth. For example, say we wanted to de-stupidify this scene. We would need to cut out Indy's near pratfalls with the manequins when he first walks out of the house, his second "that's not good at all", his running to car yelling 'wait' over and over, his 'fine, don't wait for me', his running back to the curb (because why would he be out in the street if he didn't chase the car there). Then there's the whole stupidity of the fridge issue on account of how he'd never survive, and the fact you've pointed out that nothing in the rest of the movie will seem threatening after he survives a nuke in a fridge. And what do we gain from the scene? After all our cuts, about 20 seconds of Indy in the town, and the iconic shot of the mushroom cloud ... but we have the mushroom cloud in my scenario where he never goes to the town too. So all we REALLY gain by leaving in the fridge story is the 20 or so seconds of him stumbling through the town. While I sort of like seeing him in that setting, I don't find those few seconds of footage enough of a gain when compared all we lose by leaving it in.

Thoughts?

As for the interogation room dialog, I think you've made some good cuts here. 2 things:

1. I kinda like Indy saying "glad to see you too, Bob" (or w/e) in reponse to his "indy, thank god" it works as a sort of joke ya know? As in Indy is glad to see anyone after just missing a nuke and referencing bob saying "thank god" as if he is just really glad to see him.

2. I assume you 've kept the "who is she" line from Indy b/c we are cutting her name from earlier in the film right?

1. Fair enough. I'm not crazy about the "too" in there, but it's not that big of a deal and I get your point.

2. Exactly. We've now removed all the things that reveal her identity to him - which I think kinda makes the opening play better - so now it makes sense for him to ask who she was. I don't care what Koepp was thinking ... it didn't make any sense the way he organized that. In the interrogation scene, when he asks who she was, the FBI guy says to describe her, and then some time passes off-screen and he gets handed her file, looks at it, and then asks AGAIN who she is before finally being told her name. Why wouldn't he have just said her name, which he already knew (along with her rank), instead of giving a description? It's ridiculous.

Looking good besides. I swear I'd pay someone to do all of these edits just to get a good movie out of this.

So would I. But like I said, if nobody else does it I'll eventually give it a try ... but it will probably take a long while cause I have no experience with it, so I'd prefer laser give it a shot since he's done so well so far.

Now how do we get rid of Ox, add more of a serious sense of gritty danger, and more music from the OT...?

Unfortunately, I think it would be pretty much impossible to remove Ox, but there seems to be TONS of him that could be cut.

As for gritty danger, I actually think the color correction on its own will make a big difference, as will a better use of music. Better cuts to tighten up the action and removing the stupid elements and excess CGI will help too, as is evidenced by laser's initial recut of the jungle chase. I'm thinking I'll probably leave the music changes to the end. I think that's something we'd be able to do better while looking at an actual edited cut.

Ryan

Doctor M said:

Um, I know it's on topic, but next time why don't you just post a link to a text file, HeKS.

Cause I'm not sure where to upload it to link to from here. I have never used any of those upload / file hosting services. Plus it just seems handy to have direct access to it in the thread.

HeKS

Well, I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure this scene could really be described as him being actively involved in any action. He just kinda stumbles around looking surprised at everything, acts clumsy, then climbs into a fridge. The 'best' part of his involvement in the scene is thinking to get in the fridge. Of course, in a world that even remotely follows the basic laws of physics, it wouldn't have done him any good. If I buy him saving himself from a nuke in a fridge, I'd just as easily buy him using chewing gum to make a baloon that could carry the weight of a jeep gently down into water instead of having to use a rubber band CGI tree later in the movie.

In the end, I guess it depends what we're trying to achieve here and what perspective we're looking at it from. I want a version of the movie that sits well with the others, which means it can have fantastical and improbable escapes ... but not OBVIOUSLY impossible ones. If you jump out of a plane in a rubber life raft, you'll probably die ... but if you keep a good angle to slow decent and land on a major slope covered in cushy snow then I can suspend my disbelief and accept that maybe, just maybe, if all the planets are properly aligned, you could do it and walk away. I can't say the same for the nuked fridge. You'd be dead. If the initial concussion didn't turn your brain to jelly, I say you'd get enough radiation exposure to die anyway. And if that didn't kill you, the concussion of landing would kill you. And if that didn't, your proximity to the blast while outside of the fridge would expose you to enough radiation to kill you.

Now if it's just that last one, I can tell myself maybe he'd be alright ... maybe he was further than he seemed to be ... maybe with a good scrub down he'd walk away, which is why I left it in. But when it's 4 ways to meet certain death in quick succession, I just can't buy him walking away. So, for me, having a version that sits beside the others means nothing so extremely beyond the events of Temple of Doom or Last Crusade (in either silliness or stupidity) that it appears to take place in an entirely different universe.

That would essentially be my case for leaving out the nuked fridge.

Ok, this covers the first half of the Interrogation scene. I'm pretty sure this works, but anyone who has a copy of the movie is welcome to check it out and give me some feedback. This covers minutes 22-23:10

-------- 22 MINUTE MARK --------


Rough draft of INTERROGATION CUTS - Part 1

- Cut FBI 2 (Paul) immediately after "in the middle of the United States of America". Instead of him saying "my country", cut directly to Indy saying, "What was in the steel box they took?", like he's cutting FBI 2 off.

- Camera goes to FBI 1 and there's a pause where he's looking at FBI 2 before he turns to Indy and says, "You tell us. You've seen it before." Crop out this pause and cut directly to him saying that line to Indy as soon as Indy finishes his question. (We'll need that cropped pause where he's not talking soon)

- When Indy responds to FBI 1, mute out his "Oh" as though he's surprised that it's about the Air Force thing. He already knows it is from the opening sequence, so mute the "oh" (his lips don't move) and have him start directly with "You mean that Air Force fiasco in '47."

- Earlier, after FBI 2 says, "my country", camera lingers on him for a second of silence. We need this second, which we might need to slow down slightly. After Indy says, "...fiasco in '47", he turns to FBI 2 and starts, "I was tossed in a bus with blacked out windows and 20 people I wasn't allowed to talk to.." This sounds too prepared and I don't like the line readings, so here's what I suggest....

- When Indy turns to FBI 2, and before he starts talking, we immediately cut to that second of silence looking at FBI 2 after he says "my country". We slow this slightly and overdub Indy's "I was" from "I was tossed in a bus.." (we can't see Indy's mouth in this shot but he's facing the right way) and then cut directly back to facing Indy as he says, "Hauled out in the middle of the night...", so now he says, "I was hauled out in the middle of the night...".

- Indy continues to "...and shown what? Pieces of wreckage and an intensely magnetic shroud covering mutilated remains?", but I say we cut him off at "magnetic shroud" and switch to that cropped second of non-talking looking at FBI 1 from a few steps above. This makes it seem like Indy paused after saying "magnetic shroud" and that we're looking at FBI 1's reaction shot to Indy saying this. Then we cut back to Indy saying, "None of us was ever given the full picture. And we were threatened with treason if we ever talked about it. So, you tell me, what was in the box?"

-------- 23:10 MINUTE MARK --------

Immediately after this, General Ross comes in ... and his first line is gonna be a tough one to figure out ... at least in my current tired state. So I'll pick this up tomorrow. Input and suggestions on this first part are very welcome.

Ryan

You know, it just occured to me that, through our edits, we've finally given this scene a 'raison d'etre'. As it stands now, this scene is entirely redundant and unnecessary. I doesn't really move the story along and given Indy no new useful information, since the whole scene is built around revealing Spalko's identity, which she kindly already offerred to Indy right up front in the opening sequence. At least now, because of our edits, he has no idea who she is and only learns in this scene.

I'm sure we'll be getting a thank you card from Lucas and Spielberg any day now :)

Also, had Koepp made the FBI agents even slightly less stupid, he could have used them to reveal the identity of Spalko without adding the additional otherwise entirely unnecessary character of Ross, who we never hear from again. So, as it stands in the original, not only is this scene pointless, but it also introduces THREE pointless new characters that we never see again! Damn you Koepp! They waited 19 years for this?! Ugh!

Ryan

Something else occurred to me this morning that needs to be fixed in this movie. The name "Indiana Jones" and "Indy" is almost never used in this movie. It's almost like Indy has given up calling himself that and is now going by Henry Jones Jr., except he isn't.

The weirdest spot of all is where he's being held captive by Spalko in the jungle and he sees Ox for the first time and says something like (from memory), "Hey Ox, it's me, Indiana Jo ... (glances over at Spalko, then back to Ox) ... Henry Jones Jr." The way it's shot and edited it seems like he's trying to hide from Spalko that his name is Indiana Jones, only he's doing a really bad job at it ... and there's no conceivable reason why he should want to hide his name or why we should think she doesn't already know it.

Any ideas on how we can resolve this problem specifically and the wider problem of not using his name generally?

Ryan

I dunno...I kind of figured that it was symbolic of where he is in life now. His acceptance of the name Henry would come from bonding with his father years earlier, and I can imagine it healing the old wounds that led to him adopting "Indy" in the first place*.

Characters can grow and change, even if fans often don't want them to. :)


*Though I haven't seen a lot of the Young Indy Chronicles, so I have no idea when the name was introduced in those stories.

^ Yeah, I agree with Antman on this one - the use of 'Henry Jr.' does seem more in keeping with the idea of Indy maturing and defining himself.

Also, with regards to Indy in the tent, he drops his voice when saying 'Henry Jones Jr.', so it's more like he is trying to hide the fact that that's his real name from Spalko, rather than the other way around. Having met at university, Ox would know Indy as Henry Jones Jr., and so whispers this to him in the hopes of jogging his mind. So here, we can see Indy actually preferring his nickname to his given name, continuing this joke that started in Crusade.

The name-issue might not be that much of a problem after all, then.

Uncanny Antman said:

I dunno...I kind of figured that it was symbolic of where he is in life now. His acceptance of the name Henry would come from bonding with his father years earlier, and I can imagine it healing the old wounds that led to him adopting "Indy" in the first place*.

Characters can grow and change, even if fans often don't want them to. :)


*Though I haven't seen a lot of the Young Indy Chronicles, so I have no idea when the name was introduced in those stories.

From what I recall, he adopted the name before he had a falling out with his Dad. But in any case, I think it's one thing to have a character change over time, it's another thing for a titular character to no longer use his name. Why not call the movie, "Henry Jones, Jr. and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull"?

Another reason why I don't buy the idea of him starting to use Henry because of his reconciliation with his father: It was by using the name "Indiana" that his father got through to him at the end of Last Crusade. We might basically view this as the essential summation and completion of their reconciliation. And yet, after they're outside the temple again, when Henry calls him Junior, he says something like, "Junior? Dad...", obviously annoyed at it. And then Sallah asks what's with the Junior, and Henry says, "That's his name, Henry Jones Jr." and Indy says "I LIKE Indiana", Henry says, "We named the dog, Indiana", and Indy says, "I have a lot of fond memories of that dog".

So even after the reconciliation at the end of LC, they still make it clear that he wants to keep using Indiana and not switch to Henry Jones Jr. KOTCS essentially contradicts the ending thoughts of LC - assuming it's even intentional that they don't use Indiana much - and make no effort to explain it - again, if it's anything other than a stupid oversight in the writing. Since "Indiana Jones" is the iconic and titular name of the series, changing it or failing to use it like it was used in the 3 others certainly needs some explanation. In my opinion, however, no explanation would be good enough considering the movie is called INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL

Ryan

Doctor M said:

If you consider the Young Indiana Jones shows to be canonical, Indy had been calling himself Indy since we very first meet him as a child.

If from then up through Holy Grail he had been going by Indianna, it's inane to think he would suddenly decide it's time to change again.

I couldn't agree more.

Ryan

HeKS said:

Something else occurred to me this morning that needs to be fixed in this movie. The name "Indiana Jones" and "Indy" is almost never used in this movie. It's almost like Indy has given up calling himself that and is now going by Henry Jones Jr., except he isn't.

What do you propose to fix that?

The Golden Idol said:

HeKS said:

Something else occurred to me this morning that needs to be fixed in this movie. The name "Indiana Jones" and "Indy" is almost never used in this movie. It's almost like Indy has given up calling himself that and is now going by Henry Jones Jr., except he isn't.

What do you propose to fix that?

 

Excellent question ... I have no idea. LOL

I guess I'll tackle that when I come to noticeable cases, but I'm not above pulling instances of his name being said from previous movies if they can be put in naturally and not be noticed. Also, I plan on cutting several scenes with Ox, which will help the problem. But I'm certainly open to suggestions.

Ryan