So I was watching A New Hope recently, and I got to thinking that Obi-Wan seems to depend more on stealth and tricks than on his lightsaber skills--for example, eluding those two Stormtroopers by causing them to look toward's an imagined sound.
In Empire Strikes Back, Luke also does his fair amount of sneaking around. Then there's Yoda, who manages to hide his identity--Luke doesn't figure him out until Yoda outright confesses.
So I got to wondering--I've heard the analogy before that the Jedi were either a sort of Knightly order or a Samurai-like society, but couldn't it be possible they were more akin to Ninja?
I think it would make a prequel story more interesting in that light. In Japanese history, ninja served as effective guards and peacekeepers mostly because they were not easily observed--they tended to disguise what they were by taking on mundane, everyday roles. The emperor Tokugawa defended his castle by hiring a clan of Ninja as his gardeners, case in point.
So there's a twist to the old story about how the Emperor systematically destroyed the Jedi Knights--someone would have to be an insider and betray their identities, instead of them being galactic civil servants who are known by all.
I see them more as a mix of Samurai and Knights, but yeah that ninja idea could work too... though I'd consider Sith to be more like ninja than Jedi. He big in nothing important in good elephant.
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That'd be a lot more interesting. I'm happy to watch the PT [shhh] but the Jedi of each trilogy don't really seem consistent. What happened tot the obiwan of "there are alternatives to fighting"? in the OT lightsabers were a bit of a treat but when you've got fights going on every 2 minutes ala rots it gets a little bland.
Thing about the PT is that the entire idea of the Jedi and the force was completely changed. We would assume that Jedi were calm and do a fair amount of sneaking, never ever rushing into battle, only fighting when neccesary, and when that usually happens, with blasters. Lightsabers are for civilized duels between mortal enemies, not for just fighting with whenever you get the impulse. The Jedi in the OT were even designed to be like Samurai, Knights or Ninjas, not intergalatic fight-crazy warriors. The lightsaber fights in the OT were fahioned after old Knights or Samurai fights.
In ROTS, George just gave everyone a lightsaber and said, "Have at it." That was basically the whole script. Nothing like the REAL Jedi in the OT. Watch DarthEvil's Who Framed Darth Vader? video on YouTube!
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I thought the amount of thought that went into the Jedi Order for the prequels was astounding. Like the different levels of lightsaber fighting, the differences between the different Jedi's styles and what that says about them as people.
I think the prequel Jedi were portrayed differently because they were different. They had grown too sure of themselves, and lost track of their peaceful alternatives when they were re-purposed as generals for war. That's why Yoda makes his point about how "Wars not make one great" and Obi-Wan makes his point about alternatives to fighting. They had been down that road and knew what they were talking about. Your focus determines your reality.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic I thought the amount of thought that went into the Jedi Order for the prequels was astounding. Like the different levels of lightsaber fighting, the differences between the different Jedi's styles and what that says about them as people.
Uh...yeah. Personally, I think it was a waste to put more unneeded explanation into the origins of the Jedi Order. When I watch Mace Windu, I know that he's just out there kicking droid ass and taking names, not perfecting his Juyo style. In addition, there is no way in hell anyone will ever convince me that the CGI manipulation of Yoda to do backflips and ridiculous moves can be attributed to the fact that he is proficient in his Otaru form. It's a CGI spectacle, a chance to show off the latest effects. That's it. I consider all lightsaber combat the same, whether it's someone just learning, or someone like Yoda who's practiced for centuries. The lightsaber is an "elegant" weapon.
I thought the detail was intricate and well rendered for a peice of science fiction fantasy. I don't think anything Lucas did with these films was primarily motivated by a desire to show off his new effects. He has employed cutting edge, freshly invented SFX techniques since the very beginning. It seems pretty obvious to me that a lot of thought was put into it, even if you refuse to believe it.
Wow, Wikipidia has a decent writeup about it from the same visual dictionary stuff I was looking at here. Your focus determines your reality.
Thanks for the link, Go-Mer-Tonic. I found it very interesting reading. I was especially interested in the mention of the so-called 'Form Zero', which represents the Jedi's actions when not using a lightsabre and their decision whether or not to use their weapon. It made me think of the episode in the first series of the Clone Wars cartoon with Mace Windu fighting droids after losing his lightsabre. I do feel that there was never enough of 'Form Zero' in the PT.
Now, as interesting as all of the info is, I can honestly say that it was all new to me. My point is that, despite having seen the PT, none of this was communicated to me. I am not a reader of EU novels, comics or games. I've seen the first series of Clone Wars and that's really it. None of this extensive groundwork, whether set out by Luca$h or EU authors or both, made it to the screen in any meaningful way for me. Simply watching the PT did not provide me with any real insight into the Jedi Order. Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
I really don't mind that. To me it's more important that they think about all this stuff just so when we do happen to see all this EU stuff about the thought that went into it, there is an obvious consistency to it that is more or less supported by the films themselves.
One really cool thing about leaving the bulk of the clone wars to the EU and more specifically the new CG animated series in the works, we may see more of this ligthsaber methodology born out in a more visually immediate way.
Another example of extra thought that isn't explained by the films would be things like the battle raging outside during the Anakin/Obi-Wan DuKoo duel in ROTS. Someone actually planned out the entire battle sequence outside, from their goals to the defense manuvers to the final resolution they are heading to. None of that is important to the duel, but it lends more authenticity to everytyhing to have that kind of continuity thought out in advance, rather that just pasting a bunch of ships flying around to suit each individual shot. Your focus determines your reality.
I would have liked to have seen more about the Jedi in the PT. I think some expression of these traditions and attitudes would have been worth having. I was also surprised by how little resistance to the idea of using violence there was among the Jedi. Only Master Yoda seemed at all worried about where things were going. I feel that there was very little context provided from which one could judge the Jedi's decisions and actions as being indicative of a loss of their values or of their complacency. Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Well I think once you see how they lost in the end (well for the most part) the question becomes "why did they lose" and as you dig deeper into that line of thinking, you can compare how Obi-Wan and Yoda act in the classic trilogy.
One of the things I really admire about Star Wars is how little it holds your hand on these things. Instead of telling you what to conclude, it lets you figure out your own perspective.
I think that's one of the big reasons people tend to talk about Star Wars as much as we do. Because there is so much room for interpretation that hearing other points of view can become almost addicting. Your focus determines your reality.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic ... there is so much room for interpretation that hearing other points of view can become almost addicting.
I'm with you there!
I still think the PT would benefit from more exploration of the Jedi Order and I definitely think that more Jedi than just Yoda should have been worried about getting involved with a war. Also, Yoda included, the Jedi seemed very keen to use their lightsabres. Surely, in an order devoted to peace and justice, we would see at least some of them resist using force until absolutely necessary and, even then, using Force manipulations to deal with their opposers, rather than cutting them up with their lightsabres? Particularly Yoda, as many have observed before. Surely he, of all the Jedi, would use the Force to defend himself? He wouldn't even need a lightsabre, surely? Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
I think the prequels tell the tale of how people end up losing sight of what's good without even realizing it. One rationalization here, another rationalization there, and next thing you know you have compromised the very basis for what you thought you stood for. Your focus determines your reality.
See, my point is that I don't think the PT provides enough context to conclude that. I would suggest that you're basing that reading of the PT on more than just the films themselves. I don't think our understanding of the Jedi Order is deepened by the PT and I don't think it provides anything against which to judge that the Jedi got it wrong. The fact that you are defeated doesn't always mean that you acted wrongly.
Deepening our understanding of the Jedi Order, and the Sith Order come to that, in ways such as JamesEightBitStar is suggesting, would have given us more with which to compare the actual decisions and actions of the characters. I'm not talking about having my hand held, as you so generously suggested. I'm talking about an expression of the antiquity of the Jedi and Sith Orders and the beliefs and traditions they represent. The short scene in Ben's hut on Tatooine expresses more about the Jedi order than the whole PT, in my opinion. Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
I really don't see how you could say that. The only thing Ben said was that they were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic.
The Prequels showed how they acted as diplomats, being sent in to peacefully "settle" conflicts. Then they show how they were perverted into generals leading attacks of all things. We see how they related to the Goverment much more specifically, that they had a council, how the council operated. We get glimpses into how they view politics through Obi-Wan and Anakin's conversations in Episode II and III.
I just don't see how you could even say Obi-Wan told us more about them in that hut dialogue. Your focus determines your reality.
I'm referring not just to what is said but also what is implied. Ben tells us more than just a role in the Old Republic. He tells us that they were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for over a thousand generations. He talks about how the Empire, through Darth Vader, brought down this ancient order to the point that it has been virtually eradicated. This little scene tells us a hell of a lot about who the Jedi were and what happened to them.
So, in the PT we never got to see Jedi actually acting as diplomats, which, to be honest, seems a bit weird for Jedi Knights to be doing anyway. In my opinion, there was never anything in the PT that would support the conclusion that their becoming generals in the Clone Wars was any kind of perversion. It just happens without anyone or anything suggesting that it may not be such a good idea. The "Jedi Council" turned out to be a bunch of random Jedi sitting about not doing or saying very much of any interest. The link between the Jedi and the Republic is not made clear. It is implied but it still seems a bit ad hoc. The glimpses of "Jedi politics" from Ben and Mannequin are pretty unedifying, demonstrating Mannequin's ignorance and Ben's apparent inability to teach him anything.
My point is that, in a few simple lines, delivered with depth and insight by a great actor, we learn a great deal about the Jedi Order. In three whole films, I don't think the PT managed to convey nearly so much as that one scene in ANH about the antiquity and importance of the Jedi Order in the Old Republic. Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
They were acting as diplomats in the beginning of TPM, although the Niemodians weren't interested in negotiating.
The fact that Yoda talks about how a Jedi should only use the Force for knowledge and defense -never- attack is indicative that their acting as Generals leading "pre-emptive" attacks on the Separatist as a perversion of the ways of the Jedi.
The link between the Jedi and the Old Republic government wasn't explained in excruciating detail, just more than was ever indicated in the classic trilogy alone.
At least they conveyed a whole lot more to me anyway. Your focus determines your reality.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic The fact that Yoda talks about how a Jedi should only use the Force for knowledge and defense -never- attack is indicative that their acting as Generals leading "pre-emptive" attacks on the Separatist as a perversion of the ways of the Jedi.
This is my point, though. The PT doesn't convey that in itself. If the saga is to be watched 1-6, then I think that's a problem. Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Why do you consistently suggest that I'm talking about spelling everything out? Do you really have such a low opinion of my intelligence or are you deliberately trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting my stupidity to others?
I agree with Wesyeed, that the Sith Order would probably have more in common with Ninja than the Jedi but, since they represent the two sides of the same coin, there is no reason why they might not both develop skills in this area. Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
I am not trying to imply anything about your intellect. I see your preference of having it more spelled out than it was as an artistic choice.
That's something to consider when you are making a movie is how obvious or subtle do you want to make any given point. Where you think it would have been better if it was further highlighted, I am saying that I think it's pretty self evident as it is, even if it does take the viewer to peice it together.
You are saying it doesn't convey that at all, and I'm saying it's just real subtle about it.
I do not mean to insult you at all. Your focus determines your reality.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic I thought the amount of thought that went into the Jedi Order for the prequels was astounding. Like the different levels of lightsaber fighting, the differences between the different Jedi's styles and what that says about them as people.
?
I know I'm not as well versed in episodes 1 - 3 as you gomer but I don't recall ever seeing this in the films. I know Nick Gillard explained in the docos that each actor had a different style but this was never shown in the movies as applied to the Jedi for the general public to see.
"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt
Nick and co came up with different styles for each character that fit their character's personalities. You don't know about all of the detail he put into it without looking beyond the films, but the resulting film duels do bear out these chracteristics. Your focus determines your reality.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic Nick and co came up with different styles for each character that fit their character's personalities. You don't know about all of the detail he put into it without looking beyond the films, but the resulting film duels do bear out these chracteristics.
So other than the principal actors, which characters had a personality?
Please, all, no LOL MANNEQUIN SKYWALKER HURRRR responses. I genuinely am curious because other than Our Heroes (tm) I felt all of the secondary characters to be basically cardboard cutouts of guys in robes holding lightsabres.
George Lucas, October 1979: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. I have story treatments on all nine. George Lucas, February 1999: I never had a story for the sequels.
