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Jabba the Hutt Strategy — Page 2

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Yeah, me too. I always thought of the black clothes as a Jedi's outfit. I had never thought of him using the force choke being a bad thing, or any of the other powers he used being symbols of his slipping to the Dark Side. If they had had Yoda rebuke him for this in the movie like he does it the book, it would have really highlighted that point. Wow, reflecting on this now, that was actually a very brilliantly done slipping to the Dark Side. You have this totally selfless hero rescuing his friends, but using slightly questionable means of doing so. Imagine if Anakin had been that way, a true selfless hero. The most lovable and likable guy, and all along he is doing heroic acts, but as time goes on he throw a force choke in here, and some unethical mind tricks there. I think a really great depiction of a turn to the dark side, would be one where the audience hardly even notices, so subtle and so gradual. 

The ROTJ Luke was always the coolest Luke to me when I was a kid, at Halloween I used to put on black sweats and one black glove and clip my silver metal flash light to my belt. I think I did that or about three years in a row. When I got a little bit older (10, 12, somewhere in there), I decided Empire Strikes Back Degobah Luke was slightly better than ROTJ Luke. I always wished I had some of those coveralls with the pockets everywhere.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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lordjedi said:

I doubt that Luke would have killed everybody willy nilly.  That would have truly been something of the dark side.  No, Luke was only going to kill the people that were attacking them.  If you notice on the sail barge, I believe Luke lets a few of them run away because they aren't attacking anymore.  If he were hell bent on killing everyone, why let those few run away?

 

Yes, but you forget that, even if he did let some of them run away, he did end up killing every single person when he blew up the entire sail barge, something that really wasn't necessary.  Anybody who did manage to run away got blown to bits.

All those comments about it being a possible dark side flirtation... that's actually really cool.  I doubt Lucas intended it to be interpreted that way, but, wow, if that had been the case, I think ROTJ would have earned so many points back that it had lost.  First of all, the Jabba stuff would actually have some relevance to the rest of the plot and strengthen what was already a Luke-centric movie by heightening the danger that Luke might turn to the dark side. 

As for what his clothes meant, I do recall reading a quote somewhere from Mark Hamill that said that George showed him that costume stating that it was representative of the Jedi garb of old.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I think Luke was intending to prevent anyone from pursuing them. And it's not like anybody couldn't jump off the sail barge!

On second thought, we're lucky they didn't digitally add in some henchmen escaping to make Luke more of a nice guy. ;)

It's interesting that the one Old Republic era story the old Marvel comic was able to do had Ben Kenobi in a sleek black outfit as well.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

I think Luke was intending to prevent anyone from pursuing them. And it's not like anybody couldn't jump off the sail barge!

 

 And right into the sarlaac pit!  ^_~

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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SilverWook said:

It's interesting that the one Old Republic era story the old Marvel comic was able to do had Ben Kenobi in a sleek black outfit as well.

 

Wow, really? Marvel did a single issue in the Old Republic era? I did not know about that, I'll have to attempt to track that down. Was it merely a short flashback? Or a whole one shot issue about Kenobi in the Old Republic days?

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I really like this thread, and it seems to be crying out for a fan-edit. Maybe things we don't see will strengthen this sequence a little bit.

Want to book yourself or a guest on THE VFP Show? PM me!

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Master Sifo-Dyas said:

When I first saw the movie as a kid, and saw Luke's black outfit ... force choking the gammorean guards and how arrogantly he threatened to kill Jabba, I was afraid he had already turned to the dark side. 

When I saw the early publicity photos of Luke in his black outfit - I was afraid of that, too. I think it was intentional on their part to leave it ambiguous. Then there were the teaser trailers that showed Luke standing next to Vader in the elevator, all in black- it did really look like Luke had turned.

 

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C3PX said:
SilverWook said:

It's interesting that the one Old Republic era story the old Marvel comic was able to do had Ben Kenobi in a sleek black outfit as well.

 

Wow, really? Marvel did a single issue in the Old Republic era? I did not know about that, I'll have to attempt to track that down. Was it merely a short flashback? Or a whole one shot issue about Kenobi in the Old Republic days?

It's a whole issue, but framed by Leia telling the story to everyone aboard the Millennium Falcon. Given the huge list of things Lucasfilm didn't want them to touch between movies, I'm amazed they got this one out.

Obi Wan does not wear robes in the actual story.

 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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And he doesn't use a red saber, I presume?

Anyway, I expected the EU would've explained everything, but I'm not interested in the "in-universe" explanation (which sounds more probable than usual in this case) so much as what the people making the movie were thinking at the time.

The movie does kind of suggest it was all Luke's plan, going by Han's reaction to Chewie, who seems confident Luke has everything covered. I guess the whole Boushh reveal meant there was no earlier opportunity to bring it up. (Notice how Luke's plans  tend to revolve around putting Chewie in shackles?) I suppose it's not much of a stretch to assume they deliberately kept 3PO out of the loop. I don't think he would've been much good as an undercover agent if they'd told him what the plan was.

Still doesn't seem Luke actually had a specific plan though. It seems he just gambled Jabba wouldn't kill the others before he got there, and that an opportunity for breaking out of there would present itself. I guess in a way that shows that the heroes were by then confident in their own heroics, which suits the feel Lucas wanted.

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Gaffer Tape said:

As for what his clothes meant, I do recall reading a quote somewhere from Mark Hamill that said that George showed him that costume stating that it was representative of the Jedi garb of old.

I think the quote could be in regards to Lucas' comment to Hamill at his costume fitting "It's actually quite similar to your outfit from the first film.Just a black version that's a little bit more Jedi like."

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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Shadowheart said:

deliberately kept 3PO out of the loop

 

 

3PO is always out of the loop !  :lol:

 

(remember, in episode IV, he doesn't know the princess when R2 plays the hologram message, but earlier in the movie he says "there will be no escape for the princess"... I wonder if he may have some memory malfunction...)


 

Han: Hey Lando! You kept your promise, right? Not a scratch?
Lando: Well, what’s left of her isn’t scratched. All the scratched parts got knocked off along the way.
Han (exasperated): Knocked off?!

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vote_for_palpatine said:

I really like this thread, and it seems to be crying out for a fan-edit. Maybe things we don't see will strengthen this sequence a little bit.

 

 i know it is different, but you mean like this?

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-First-21-minutes/topic/7919/

 

all of his changes are listed here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-First-21-minutes/post/328943/#post328943

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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Z6PO said:

(remember, in episode IV, he doesn't know the princess when R2 plays the hologram message, but earlier in the movie he says "there will be no escape for the princess"... I wonder if he may have some memory malfunction...)

On the contrary, Threepio remembers everything. Perfectly. But he is a protocol droid, in the service of the Royal Family of Alderaan, and it would be against his programming to disclose their secrets to common farmboys. Or the secrets of his previous masters. It just wouldn't be proper.

"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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The plan is to get everybody on the inside and then play it as it lays. It's the last remnant of Star Wars-as-action adventure before it disappeared up its own ass.

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SilverWook said:

It's a whole issue, but framed by Leia telling the story to everyone aboard the Millennium Falcon. Given the huge list of things Lucasfilm didn't want them to touch between movies, I'm amazed they got this one out.

Obi Wan does not wear robes in the actual story.

 

I was able to track this issue down.

SilverWook said:

It's interesting that the one Old Republic era story the old Marvel comic was able to do had Ben Kenobi in a sleek black outfit as well.

If anyone wants a read of it PM me. It was good to see Kenobi as imagined in 1979, but otherwise I thought it was a pretty uninteresting read, unfortunately.

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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negative1 said:
vote_for_palpatine said:

I really like this thread, and it seems to be crying out for a fan-edit. Maybe things we don't see will strengthen this sequence a little bit.

 

 i know it is different, but you mean like this?

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-First-21-minutes/topic/7919/

 

all of his changes are listed here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-First-21-minutes/post/328943/#post328943

later

-1

 

Hey, thanks for the plug! I just found this thread and the conversation is great!

The restructuring I've done in my edit (hopefully) does several different things...one of those things being the absurdness of the plan to rescue Han.

Maybe it IS left up to interpretation...maybe it's suppose to harken back to Obi's line, "...but there are alternatives to fighting."...but to me, it just isn't clear enough...it's just too convoluted...

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Gaffer Tape said:

Oh, and I almost forgot.  What right did Luke have to demand Chewbacca's release?  Jabba paid for Chewbacca!  Jabba paid one of Luke's operatives for Chewbacca.  Assuming Leia didn't still have the credits on her when she was captured, would Luke have offered Jabba a refund?  Probably not since he immediately came in with demands and mind tricks.  Geez, is it just me or are the good guys, aside from being incredibly short-sighted and stupid, unnecessarily deceptive and underhanded?

Overall, I see it possible that someone might defend this by saying that they planned for the worst possible scenario.  My rebuttal is that they only planned for the worst possible scenario... and the worst possible scenario in a very specific way.  I mean, really, if any single thing had gone "right" in their plan, then they would have been screwed!

well, i'm sure they new jabba wouldn't give up that easily. why he sent them in one at a time i'm not sure. maybe to get ready for the attack or something. i'm as clueless as han pretty much. how they knew how it would play out is a mystery to me.

 

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But isn't the whole point of that scene is that it was maybe not as well thought out as it could have been? 

HAN:   "How we doin'?"

LUKE:  "Same as always."

HAN:   "That bad, huh?"

;-)

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VORSH

Now that's onomotapoeia.

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I was chatting with a friend about this last night and he came up with another good point: also Luke went into the gaff unarmed for no reason... he dealt with the guards on the way in so there was no search or anything... these jedi fellas are a little dim...

War does not make one great.

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LOL, that is true. And just about everyone else in Jabba's Palace were armed. Well, I guess when they captured Luke they probably checked him for weapons.

 

Scruffy said:
Z6PO said:

(remember, in episode IV, he doesn't know the princess when R2 plays the hologram message, but earlier in the movie he says "there will be no escape for the princess"... I wonder if he may have some memory malfunction...)

On the contrary, Threepio remembers everything. Perfectly. But he is a protocol droid, in the service of the Royal Family of Alderaan, and it would be against his programming to disclose their secrets to common farmboys. Or the secrets of his previous masters. It just wouldn't be proper.

 

Yeah, Scruffy is right, his memory is fine. Watch that scene again, it has always felt to me like he was protecting the stubborn Artoo more than watching out for the Princess. He obviously didn't know what the message was, because he had never seen it nor did he see her record it in front of Artoo. As soon as Luke leaves the room Threepio drops his polite voice, turns to Artoo, and scolds his saying, "Just you consider replaying that message for him!"

In Shadows of the Empire, it explains that Luke purposfully keeps Threepio in the dark about the actual plan.

He is not the smartest droid, but his memory is just fine.

 

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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 (Edited)

I couldn't give a damn if the Jabba plan made sense. It was fun.

C3PX said:

The rescue in ROTJ has always been incredible unbelievable and made no sense at all. The Jabba palace bit of the movie is probably one of the worst bits of the OT IMHO. But the Rancor battle, the scene with Luke slashing up everyone on the barge, the original sarlacc, and Leia choking Jabba to Death in her metal bikini all make up for it... mostly.

Though I must say, there is nothing in the entirety of ROTJ that makes it worth sitting through Jedi Rocks for, NOTHING!

The Jabba section of the movie is marvellous. It's one of the best parts of the OT. Between that and the Luke-Vader-Emperor stuff ROTJ had some of the best stuff in the trilogy.

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C3PX said:

Yeah, me too. I always thought of the black clothes as a Jedi's outfit. I had never thought of him using the force choke being a bad thing, or any of the other powers he used being symbols of his slipping to the Dark Side. If they had had Yoda rebuke him for this in the movie like he does it the book, it would have really highlighted that point.

In what book? In the novelization Yoda doesn't rebuke Luke for his costume or choice of force powers.

 

lordjedi said:
Janskeet said:

I never really thought the whole Jabba the Hut sequence through, but I thought it was meant to be ambigious. The movie didn't spell out the whole strategy because it wanted the audience to interpret it themselves. I don't think Luke had respect for Jabba's right, he was going to do whatever necessary to get everything he wanted from him even if he had to kill everybody. That's one thing that I like about the perception they gave the jedi in the OT. They were tough protectors fighting for peace and wouldn't take no bullshit even if they ended up being a little uncivilized. In the PT they were a bunch of niave whimps.

If I'm not mistaken, in the novelization, Luke gets some flack from Yoda after the rescue for his actions in Jabba's palace, especially for the force choke.

 

He didn't. I just checked. No sign of that.

On the other hand, if somebody can find Yoda rebuking Luke in the novelization I'd appreciate knowing where in the  novel, including a page number if possible.

 

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C3PX said:

I know it was written more than ten years later, but Shadows of the Empire addresses most of those issues you brought up, Shadowheart. According to that, they had quite a bit of contact, and planned it all together. At the end of Shadows of the Empire, Luke is at Ben's old place recording the message for Jabba, Leia and Chewie are off together on their way to Jabba, and Lando had gone in sometime before. I suppose Shadows of the Empire has slightly more credit to it than your average EU, since Lucas was more involved in it. It wasn't just one book planned and written by a single writter, but a multimedia project including an action figure line and even a sound track. Also the fact that Dash Render's ship The Outrider makes a cameo appearance in the SE of ANH also seems to give more weight to it than your average EU. A lot of people hated Shadows, I loved it. The book may have not been the best written, but the story was great and really flowed well with the OT so well that if you didn't know any better you might think ROTJ was written after it. The PT couldn't even manage to do this.

For anyone who has not read Shadows of the Empire, I'd highly recomend going to your public library and picking up the audio book. It is well read, and the abridgment actually improves on many of the novel's weak points. To me, the audio book is the definitive version of SOTE. The video game was pretty awesome too, but the N64 graphics are very dated today.

I hate Shadows of the Empire. I call it Shitholes of the Empire. The whole thing comes off like fan fiction and it's full of Mary Sue-ish characters. Starting with Bash Fender or Hash Vendor or whatever -"Look, isn't it cool our character's hanging out with the Star Wars heroes and he even fights in the Hoth battle and has a ship that look like the falcon and isn't he a great stand-in for Han?!!!" Then Xizor -"Look, our villain can rival Vader and he turns Leia on!" And Jix -"See our guy being casual with Vader. Isn't he cool?!" All these "cool" characters don't fit with the mentality of the OT, they have a lot in common with the "cool" characters of the PT, in the way the shove their "coolness" in your face. Guri's designed to appeal to fans who want to screw a robot. And the comic's Boba Fett fixation is more pandering to fans. I'm of the view that Boba Fett is overrated and the last thing I want is a story going "Look, isn't he the coolest dude in the galaxy?" The OT didn't push coolness like that. Shadows doesn't fit with the OT at all.

Xizor annoys the hell out of me and I hate that they make Leia subject to his sex control or whatever. I hate when people do that to characters. I don't think the real Emperor would give Xizor the time of day. And they ruin Leia's bounty hunter disguise by making it not her idea or the idea of the heroes. If Shadows wasn't presented as if it was the real story of what happened between the films I might find it easier to take, but it sets itself up with a big boast and then delivers annoying fan fiction. It annoys the hell out of me. And the Shadows elements in the Special Edition are another example of the special edition shoveling crap on us. Hash Vendor doesn't belong in the OT. 

Shadows comes from an era when they were selling the tapes of the OT as the last time the OT would be available in its original version and when Lucas was mutilating the OT with the special edition. I think Shadows fits right in there as one of the crimes against Star Wars. A lesser crime maybe, but a crime nonetheless. No way can I accept that fanfiction as what happened between films in the OT.

By the time Shadows came out, Star Wars had already begun to go wrong and I think Shadows is a symptom of that. Heck, I think they started work on it around the time Lucas started writing TPM. Synchronicity of decline. November 1994 was when both of those things really got going. So the start of the OT's backstory being rewritten as a story about a dork complete with cartoon characters came at the same time as they were developing the idea of forcing in fanfiction between ESB and ROTJ.

(Sorry if I'm beating on something you like. Shadows just pisses me off bigtime.)

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Thanks for reviving my old thread!  I enjoy seeing it again.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I enjoy Shadows of the Empire, which you hate.  I consider the Jabba section the absolutely worst part of the OT (as my initial post exhaustively explains).  Nothing we can do except continue on, I guess, although I would love to hear your opinions on why you think it's wonderful.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.