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Electronic machines, IMO are a good idea.

The idea that "black" people can't use them is just insulting. I thought that democrats were supposed to be the party that supported and cared for those of African descent, and yet here they are insulting their intelligence. Same in the 2000 election. The republicans got the white house because our constituents are too stupid to use the ballots. Ridiculous. If they can't figure out "Press A for Bush. Press B for Kerry. Press C for Nader," then they probably shouldn't be voting to begin with. This isn't meant to sound cruel, but if one can't figure out something as simple as a touch screen, then they probably don't understand the issues well enought to make a desicion on an election so important.

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I see all kinds of problems that could occur with electronic machines. Hackers for one. Power outages for another. Also computer systems crash and have other tech problems from time to time. But I don't see it as problem for African Americans or the elderly to use. As long as the interface is made easy enough to use for those among us that are not tech savy.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
I take a triumph the dog attitude towards what type of ballot

"Who gives a shit"


ah yes, another intelligent response from Jimbo.

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I agree that there are a whole new mess of problems that can come with electronic voting. But I think that when you compare things across the board they balance out, if not lean slightly in the favor of electronic. I mean, Starkiller quoted the percentages on votes completely thrown out in 2000. They were discussing that the other day on NPR and I was totally shocked. Its just understood I guess, that about 3 percent of votes nationally are just not counted, for a number of reasons.
So any major loss, or problems with Electronic voting would be eventually reduced to the margin of error present now. The benifit still exists that the system is nationalized. It seems more efficient. As others noted, it provides ease and confidentiality of voting for the disabled.
I just think that the way things are now, there is just way too much room for error. Regardless of how inept a person has to be to "mis-punch", etc. a ballot now - the problem still exists. I think that if its reduced to a simple touch screen, or something similar, (I saw some for the primaries that were touch screens, but I dont know if this is exactly what would be implemented) the room for error is decreased. Ill go ahead now and say that you could decrease the room for error RIGHT NOW, by simply educating people on how to properly cast their ballots. I know it seems like holding people's hands through the process, but come on, if the problem is present than it needs to be addressed.

-Lethe
"You don't own space, so stop actin' like you do."
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Voting in Canada is so simple; no butterfly ballots, no BS. I can see why you would want to go to electronic voting.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Electronic machines, IMO are a good idea.

The idea that "black" people can't use them is just insulting. I thought that democrats were supposed to be the party that supported and cared for those of African descent, and yet here they are insulting their intelligence.
That is a misconception that I wish could be dispelled.
1. Republican Abraham Lincoln is the one that signed te Emancipation Proclamation.
2. Ever heard the term 'Southern Democrat'?
3. The pro-segregationist party that was formed during the 50s and 60s were the dixie'crats'...not dixie'cans'.
4. Might I remind (or inform) everyone, Democrat Robert Byrd of West Virginia was a card-carrying member of the KKK (though this is just 1 man's choice).

I think there are 2 reasons people think that democrats are for blacks:
1. Democrat Lyndon Johnson is the one that signed the Civil Rights acts of the 60s.
2. Because activists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton say the republicans are evil.
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I think it is a popular misconception that Democrats are somehow more focused on minorities. In fact, neither party is really overly focused on minroities. If you look at the general campaigning trends this becomes more clear. I think that the general idea, among politicians, is that certain demographics always vote inside a certain party - and all a candidate has to do is make a few comments here or there about their support of the minorites. For some reason, it seems they think this is sufficient campaigning. Its very disrespectful.
Its sad that the overall climate has changed so little in the last 30 years. Its like Civil Rights came and went, and now that its not at the forefront of the media (at least not as much as it was initially) people just kind of brush it off.
"You don't own space, so stop actin' like you do."
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good point lethe, about the civil rights thing. But i think by and large it is because of how certain minority groups have handled it. The NAACP is by and large nothing but the democrats lap dog, same with anything the the "Good reverands" Jackson and Sharpton are involved with. When discussing race and politics with people the first question i ask is "what has the democratic party done for minorities in the last 20 years?" there are only two answers i get to this question. 1 is "um...er... i dont know, but those republicans are all racists, and at least the economy is was good". My respounse to this is usually pointing out the present unemployment rate 5.4%, that minority unemployment is about the same as it was under clinton, that minority home ownership is at an all time high, and that Presedent Bush has 6 minorities as advisors. Cabinet Rice. The other answer i get is usually "Nothing, buyt niether has the Republican party". Two which i say "your right". Bill Cosby is right, and it is sad, minorities, especially the younger generations, are so busy blaming everyone, throwing a pitty party, and/or just wasting there lives in general that they dont utilize all the freedoms that great women and men of the past paid heavily for. Could you imagine if people bonded together like they once did in boycotts and in political movements the change that could happen? Imgine if Groups got together and all voted for an independant canidate in a show of power, people would listen, i know they would...
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Originally posted by: Warbler
I see all kinds of problems that could occur with electronic machines. Hackers for one. Power outages for another. Also computer systems crash and have other tech problems from time to time. But I don't see it as problem for African Americans or the elderly to use. As long as the interface is made easy enough to use for those among us that are not tech savy.


Our eletronic voting system:

Hackers: not really a problem, since the whole data goes through a highly protected encryption package, I really don't know how it works, techinically speaking, but it's pretty safe. Our tax declaration is sent over the internet with the same system, and so far there has been no problems at all.

Power outage: the eletronic voting machines, about twice the size of a telephone, can be operated by using batteries if needed. It's not a big machine, and the screen is a liquid crystal b&w one. There is one small loudspeaker that goes "beep" only. It's power consume is very, ver low.

Computers crashes: well it's not run on Microsoft, so it dosen't happen after the election is over. What happens sometimes, and it's decreasing since 1996 is voting machines breaking down for some reasons, mostly mishanded, droped to the floor, and so on. About 0.1% of the machines break down, and there are about 1 or 2 on every location for such ocorrences. Even if more break down, the voting is done manually, and since the checking of such votes is also done eletronically (optically), and since it represents around 0.01% of the votes, they get counted pretty quickly and summed up with the eletronic votes.

Dumb people: well, freaking NAKED INDIANS voted on that damn thing (indians, the REAL ones, can vote only if they want to). But yes, we had some problems with the elderly people. In 2002, for some weird reason, elderly people everywhere got dumb, and they took literally minutes to vote - it takes no more than 20 seconds, depending on how many people you are electing. It didn't happen this year, and somehow everyone learned how to press 2 buttons to choose your candidate and a green one to confirm your vote.

What could be done in the US:

1- The presidential election gets regulamented and control by the federal government, so it's run the SAME way everywhere.

2- Organize the registered voters and specify clearly their voting locations. Don't do it 2 weeks before the election, do it years before.

3- Give a 2 digit number for every single party. Democrats can be, like, 10, and republicans 20, and comunists 30, and green party 25, and sci-fi book readers party number 42, and so on. Reserve numbers 80 to 99 for testing and educational use. I'm sure there are less than 79 parties in the US.

4- On election day, the person goes to where she is set to vote, press the two digits - a picture of the candidate and his name will appear onscreen - and he pressed green if he wants to confirm, or red if he wants to correct that.

5- I'm not sure how congressmen are elected in the US, but over here they have the 2 digits from his partie, plus 2 or 3 more unique digits. If I was a democract candidate, I could be number 10123, or 10455, or 10666. When you get to vote for him, you press his numbers.

6- After election is over, each state gathers the information from the voters by a intranet or internet.

About the costs: I'm am positivly sure the costs of such an organized, equiped election are LOWER than the costs of a unorganized, manual election that takes weeks to resolve and causes many errors and different interpretations. We had this applied here in Brazil because it proofed to be less expansive than our old manual way. Besides, we're freaking Brazil, if we can afford it, so can the United States of America.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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anyone see the debate last night? i didnt feel like staying up until 3am to watch it, so give a very quick rundown of who came out on top...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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I watched it for about 15 minutes, and got bored.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: motti_soL
anyone see the debate last night? i didnt feel like staying up until 3am to watch it, so give a very quick rundown of who came out on top...
Pundits take: Bush crushed Kerry
Snap polls taken right after debate: At best, Bush tied Kerry. Otherwise, Kerry won.

However, Bush was quite strong. He put Kerry on the defensive for most of the debate. Bush brought up Kerry's senate record, voting to raise taxes X times, voting against lower taxes Y times, etc.

Kerry also said some things that hit some trouble spots:
1. He brought up Cheney's daughter, which sent the gasp through the crowd and rattled the press corp. It hurt Edwards when he talked about it in the VP debate, why would Kerry talk about it?
2. The last question: Here, I'll just get a transcript and copy-and-paste.
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SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud.

I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women?

BUSH: To listen to them.

(LAUGHTER)

To stand up straight and not scowl.

(LAUGHTER)

I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters.

I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech. I said, OK, you've got a deal. Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying.

But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you. So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight.

SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?

KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up.

(LAUGHTER)

And some would say maybe me moreso than others.

(LAUGHTER)

But I can take it.

(LAUGHTER)

Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing.

And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity. Those are the three words that she left me with.

And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong.

They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that.

And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky.

So, Kerry JOKED about marrying into money, and then when he talked about his strong female influences, he DOESN'T talk about his wife...he talks about his MOTHER????
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Gah!

He wasn't joking about marrying into money he was poking fun at himself for not being the world's best catch. Have you seen the guy? He knows what he looks like.

He's longfaced, drab-looking and not the world's most scintillating conversationalist (although he does have a grasp on the English language which even Bush admits he does not.)
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Personally, I got a kick out of both sides' roundabout and long-winded answers to certain questions. Spoken like true politicians.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: Regicidal_Maniac
Gah!

He wasn't joking about marrying into money he was poking fun at himself for not being the world's best catch. Have you seen the guy? He knows what he looks like.

He's longfaced, drab-looking and not the world's most scintillating conversationalist (although he does have a grasp on the English language which even Bush admits he does not.)


What i think bothered a lot of people is that he had little to say about his wife. Bush gave an emotionally charged answer about how much his wife and girls mean to him. Kerry popped a joke and then talked about his dead mother. I know my wife wouldnt be happy if all i did was joke about her money and thats it...


In other news... if i had a dollar for every time i heard Kerry said "funding" i could personally balance the national debt. If he gets elected say goodbye to your money cause taxes are gonna go way up...

edit: if i had a dollar for every moronic typo i made, i would be twice as rich...
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Originally posted by: Kingsama

What i think bothered a lot of people is that he had little to say about his wife. Bush gave an emotionally charged answer about how much his wife and girls mean to him. Kerry popped a joke and then talked about his dead mother. I know my wife wouldnt be happy if all i did was joke about her money and thats it...


So the man loves his mother. Big deal. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his wife. I think there are more important issues than this.
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Originally posted by: Warbler
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Originally posted by: Kingsama

What i think bothered a lot of people is that he had little to say about his wife. Bush gave an emotionally charged answer about how much his wife and girls mean to him. Kerry popped a joke and then talked about his dead mother. I know my wife wouldnt be happy if all i did was joke about her money and thats it...


So the man loves his mother. Big deal. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his wife. I think there are more important issues than this.


Have to agree with you there. There are much better things to burn Kerry with.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
Have to agree with you there. There are much better things to burn Kerry with.


and ever more to burn Bush with.

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Why all the hatred to the president?
Kerry is a huge joke. I sure as hell hope he doesn't win this election.

But John Edwards is the one that downright scares me. To think that he might just be the vice president is truly scary.

BUSH CHENEY '04

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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Nader really isn't worth mentioning. He's farther left than Kerry, and might get 3% of the vote, if he's lucky.
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Yeah, I don't know why he bothers.

It'd be hilarious if he somehow won. He'd die of heart attack, and so would I.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000
Why all the hatred to the president?


Because I can't stand him.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000

Kerry is a huge joke. I sure as hell hope he doesn't win this election.


While Kerry is no Lincoln, Bush is an even bigger joke.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000


But John Edwards is the one that downright scares me. To think that he might just be the vice president is truly scary.


here is an ever scarier thought: Cheney a heart beat away from the Presidency!

It's this simple. We already know that Bush is a terrible President, but we don't know how Kerry will do. All you can do is predict that Kerry will be a bad President. With Bush we know he is a bad President because we've watched him for 4 years make an ass out of himself and embarrass the U.S.A. and make other nations hate us. I'll vote for somone who might be a bad President over someone who is a bad President any day of the week.


P.S. Nader it too far to the left for me, has no chance of winning and as I have said before: a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.
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Excellent post Warbler.

I sincerely hope that the neo-cons in the US don't manage to dupe the public into voted them back in with dirt-slinging, lies about inflation and obfuscation about a war for profit like the conservatives here in Oz managed to do again last weekend.

The last thing America needs, or the world for that matter not the we get a say, is for Cheney and Rumsfeld to complete their 8 year plan.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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the problem with the Bush administration is that he is stupid, he is downright an idiot. he has proved it over and over again. he has proved that he cannot think for himself and does not talk like a president. and the biggest problem is those behind him. they are true imperialists. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice (she is a vampire), Ashcroft and so on... then there are the leaders of those countried that kiss the USA's arse. Blair adn Howard spring to mind. what these people have done to the geopolitical situation in the past 4 years is a shame and an embarrassment without equal. they lie, steal and manipulate without remorse and although lying is a politician's greatest skill, then there is still a line that is not to be crossed.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)