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Originally posted by: motti_soL
the problem with the Bush administration is that he is stupid, he is downright an idiot. he has proved it over and over again. he has proved that he cannot think for himself and does not talk like a president. and the biggest problem is those behind him. they are true imperialists. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice (she is a vampire), Ashcroft and so on... then there are the leaders of those countried that kiss the USA's arse. Blair adn Howard spring to mind. what these people have done to the geopolitical situation in the past 4 years is a shame and an embarrassment without equal. they lie, steal and manipulate without remorse and although lying is a politician's greatest skill, then there is still a line that is not to be crossed.


Bush is an intellegent man who makes clear verdicts. Unlike Kerry is is a liberal wako who flip flops on everything. Bush lowered our taxes, saved Iraq, saved Afganistan, helped put 75% of Alqida in jail or dead, did everything he could to end gay marriage and baby murdering. I trust Bush to run this nation.
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Originally posted by: Warbler
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Originally posted by: Hal 9000
Why all the hatred to the president?


Because I can't stand him.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000

Kerry is a huge joke. I sure as hell hope he doesn't win this election.


While Kerry is no Lincoln, Bush is an even bigger joke.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000


But John Edwards is the one that downright scares me. To think that he might just be the vice president is truly scary.


here is an ever scarier thought: Cheney a heart beat away from the Presidency!

It's this simple. We already know that Bush is a terrible President, but we don't know how Kerry will do. All you can do is predict that Kerry will be a bad President. With Bush we know he is a bad President because we've watched him for 4 years make an ass out of himself and embarrass the U.S.A. and make other nations hate us. I'll vote for somone who might be a bad President over someone who is a bad President any day of the week.


P.S. Nader it too far to the left for me, has no chance of winning and as I have said before: a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.


Precislely why my motto is, I you truly hate Bush, vote for Nader. John F. Kerry simply does not have the moral capacity to be president. I don't care if his IQ is higher, which, from Wednesday's debate, is debatable. John Kerry seems to think that everything wrong with America is Bush's fault. The truth is that John Kerry can't fulfil any of his promises without driving the US deeper into debt. Given time, this administration's economic policies will up the econonmy, and will create jobs. It took Clinton and the first Bush twelve years to undo the what Reagan did for the economy, so are we to expect that a less capable president than Reagan can undo all that in just four? especially considering that the freakin' World Trade Center was destroyed.

Furthermore, Kerry lacks a moral compass. Look at what he said in the debate. He made a point of mentioning that Cheney's daughter is involved in homosexuality, and can anybody explain why? He actually thinks that conservatives will be less likely to vote for Bush/Cheney knowing that becasue of the conservative Christian stance on that particulary lifestyle. How ridiculous! All he suceeded in doing is showing how ruthless he is.

Kerry talked a lot about God, but looking at him, one could tell without much effort that it was shallow pandering. Kerry may have been born into a Catholilc family, but that doesn't make him a Christian. Bush on the otherhand was obvioulsly sincere. Or a really good actor, but I didn't think he was smart enough for that. Bush actually lives what he belives. Kerry says he doesn't want to impose his religious beliefs on others, and yet he has no problem imposing his views on abortion and gay unions. He takes a "moral" stance in the war in Iraq. See where I am going?

No matter what you think of Bush's intelligence, Kerry is under no circumstances fit to lead this nation.
If you truly hate George W. Bush, then just please do the nation a favor and vote for Nader.

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I would just like to know WHY people hate bush... Not mindless mud slinging, not "because he makes others mad at us" but give specifics examples of his policies and decisions that anger you so...
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They can't.

the simple fact is that all their reasons for hating Bush are ridicuous, or based in mistruths and exagerations. There is no reason to hate our current president. France and Germany weren't allies lost by Bush. They were bribed by Hussein to go against us. If they had just not helped us, it would be no big deal, but they tried to stop us from taking out a regime that was an obvious threat to the world and Iraq's own people.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
They can't.

the simple fact is that all their reasons for hating Bush are ridicuous, or based in mistruths and exagerations. There is no reason to hate our current president. France and Germany weren't allies lost by Bush. They were bribed by Hussein to go against us. If they had just not helped us, it would be no big deal, but they tried to stop us from taking out a regime that was an obvious threat to the world and Iraq's own people.
To be completely technical about it, I believe the countries mentioned in the Dulfer (sp?) Report were France, Russia and China, not Germany.
Not to say Germany might not have profitted from Food for Oil, I don't know. Just relaying what I heard.

However, I saw a headline today (didn't read the article) that Germany may be willing to help in Iraq...it may not happen for a number of years.
Found it:
Germany: Never say never on Iraq
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saved Iraq, saved Afganistan


LOL, youre kidding, right?

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France and Germany weren't allies lost by Bush. They were bribed by Hussein to go against us. If they had just not helped us, it would be no big deal, but they tried to stop us from taking out a regime that was an obvious threat to the world and Iraq's own people.


are you serious? do you truly believe what you are saying?!?!
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Originally posted by: motti_soL
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saved Iraq, saved Afganistan


LOL, youre kidding, right?

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France and Germany weren't allies lost by Bush. They were bribed by Hussein to go against us. If they had just not helped us, it would be no big deal, but they tried to stop us from taking out a regime that was an obvious threat to the world and Iraq's own people.


are you serious? do you truly believe what you are saying?!?!


No I am not kidding. The word is better off without Taliban and Saddam Hussaine. If your against the war you are pro Saddam. Also I say hell no do we need a permission slip from France to remove a tyrant.
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If your against the war you are pro Saddam


well, then yes i am pro-Saddam! and fucking proud of it. while youre at it, im also pro-Hizbollah and anti-Jew. i am also pro-nuclear-weapons-for-iran-and-northernkorea. and let me answer for you: by extension, if i am pro-saddam then i am also anti-USA. yes! i am anti-USA!

sorry jimbo, but you have misunderstood many things...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Originally posted by: motti_soL
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If your against the war you are pro Saddam


well, then yes i am pro-Saddam! and fucking proud of it. while youre at it, im also pro-Hizbollah and anti-Jew. i am also pro-nuclear-weapons-for-iran-and-northernkorea. and let me answer for you: by extension, if i am pro-saddam then i am also anti-USA. yes! i am anti-USA!

sorry jimbo, but you have misunderstood many things...


Thanks for being honest with us.
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tsk tsk...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Originally posted by: motti_soL
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saved Iraq, saved Afganistan


LOL, youre kidding, right?

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France and Germany weren't allies lost by Bush. They were bribed by Hussein to go against us. If they had just not helped us, it would be no big deal, but they tried to stop us from taking out a regime that was an obvious threat to the world and Iraq's own people.


are you serious? do you truly believe what you are saying?!?!
Its not what Darth Chaltab and myself said...its what the Duelfer Report says. Its a left-wing biased national media that is being hush-hush on the details that support the war.
Duelfer Report: Summary of Key Findings, from CIA website
Duelfer Report: Access to all 3 parts, and summary

I'm currently downloading the 53MB first 1/3 of the full report. I will search it for references to France, and post here later.
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(Page numbers are using Adobe Acrobat numbering)
Page 90:
The Regime sought a favorable relationship with France because France was influential as a permanent member of the UN Security Council and was in a good position to help Iraq with lifting sanctions.

Page 138:
One aspect of Saddam’s strategy of unhinging the UN’s sanctions against Iraq, centered on Saddam’s efforts to influence certain UN SC permanent members, such as Russia, France, and China and some nonpermanent (Syria, Ukraine) members to end UN sanctions.

Page 191:
Moreover, the IIS paper targeted a number of French individuals that the Iraqi’s thought had close relations to French President Chirac, including, according to the Iraqi assessment, the official spokesperson of President Chirac’s re-election campaign, two reported “counselors” of President Chirac, and two well-known French businessmen. In May 2002, IIS correspondence addressed to Saddam stated that a MFA (quite possibly an IIS officer under diplomatic cover) met with French parliamentarian to discuss Iraq-Franco relations. The French politician assured the Iraqi that France would use its veto in the UNSC against any American decision to attack Iraq, according to the IIS memo.

Page: 246
The French-Iraqi procurement relationship existed within a larger bi-lateral political relationship, which was turbulent and problematic throughout the 1990s up until OIF. From Saddam Husayn’s perspective, the relationship was built on Iraq’s hopes to influence a permanent membership on the UN Security Council against the United State and UK (see the Ministry of Foreign Affairs section).
• Illustrating Iraq’s persistent efforts to curry favor in Paris, France, was one of the top three countries with companies or individuals receiving secret oil vouchers (see the Oil Voucher section). Iraq also awarded numerous short-term contracts under the UN OFF program to companies in France totaling $1.78 million, approximately 14 percent of the oil allocated under the UN OFF Program.

That's a small percentage of the French references I found. There were also numerous references to procurement deals involving France that "eroded the sanctions".
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Motti they are right on both counts. In Afganistan and in Iraq people now have civil rights, something that both lacked in the past. We are talking about countries that had men appointed as chief rapists, where women and children are objects, and the vile list could go on and on. Now those places are places where children are educated, women (not to mention men) can vote, people recieve vaccinations, clean water, food, and on and on and on.

and i would spend some time reading those reports, leaders in high places in all those countries recieved millions of dollars each from the bathe party.

here is a interesting web site check it out...

Iraq
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Originally posted by: Kingsama
Motti they are right on both counts. In Afganistan and in Iraq people now have civil rights, something that both lacked in the past. We are talking about countries that had men appointed as chief rapists, where women and children are objects, and the vile list could go on and on. Now those places are places where children are educated, women (not to mention men) can vote, people recieve vaccinations, clean water, food, and on and on and on.

and i would spend some time reading those reports, leaders in high places in all those countries recieved millions of dollars each from the bathe party.

here is a interesting web site check it out...

Iraq


You can thank George Bush for that. He has done more good for this world and this country then liers like Clinton ever did. This cartoon shows how I feel about anti-war traiters.
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What infuriates me the most is that people who call themselves humanists are against this war. How can you be a humanist if you don't think we should do anything to help the humans in distress in Iraq.

Motti, the truth is that in both Iraq and Afghanistan, there were people--terrorists--that wanted nothing more than to opress their world with their perverted form of religion, and kill as many Americans as possible. They are still there in Iraq, and Bush is fighting them. Kerry, despite his promises, is not the leader Bush is. He can't win a war that he doesn't believe in.

I thought Vietnam would prove that much.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
What infuriates me the most is that people who call themselves humanists are against this war. How can you be a humanist if you don't think we should do anything to help the humans in distress in Iraq.

Motti, the truth is that in both Iraq and Afghanistan, there were people--terrorists--that wanted nothing more than to opress their world with their perverted form of religion, and kill as many Americans as possible. They are still there in Iraq, and Bush is fighting them. Kerry, despite his promises, is not the leader Bush is. He can't win a war that he doesn't believe in.

I thought Vietnam would prove that much.


I like Kerrys logic. "Hey France and Germany the war was a big waste of time but I want you to send 2 million troops to help us please"

Kerry is full of empty promises, flip flops, and sometimes just downright lies.
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True.

You know. That is such an obvious dilemma, and Kerry completely ignores it. It is as if his mere presense in the White House will make France and Germany want to fight beside us. Sure.

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But then again, Bush joked around at every debate like a complete ass clown. "I own a lumber company? That's news to me. heh heh heh..." Didn't he say that? What a loser. At least act mature, it's not like you're the President or anything.
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That's your opinion. It was probbaly just funny because he looks like a chimp and laughs like one too.
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Well. If his appearance is all you can critique, I win this by default

And at least he doesn't look like John-the walking corpse-Kerry. Anyway. Jimbo, Starkiller, Kingsama and Me have obviously won this debate for now.

I'm going to go play something.


-Adios-

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its funny how bush supporters forget the past so quickly. bush sr. with reagan and all the other cronies from the 80's places osama bin ladin in power, they are the ones that places saddam hussein in power and just smiled when this "axis of evil" was operating at its worst.

bush speaks of WMD? where are they? not a single shred of evidence that supports that theory has been presented.

saddam hussein has no links to al-qaeda or afghanistan, this has been proved.

if it is saddam hussein that you wanted to get rid of then get rid of him, dont violate the entire country. you (as in the americans) have put people on the moon, surely you would be able to get one man?

why so sceptical about iran and north korea getting nuclear power? oh youre afraid that they will develop WMD as in nuclear bombs? true, it would be unfortunate if they were to use them. but what does that make the USA, being the only country in over 50 years to ever have used the bomb on a population... twice...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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How quickly the neo-con Right-wing Christian Reich choose to forget the facts of the past in order to continue the lies of the present.



Pretty lucky that Saddam Hussein, an absolute cock don't get me wrong, had that 'stroke' recently before he was due to be turned over to officials for questioning and trial. Too bad I'd have liked to hear his thoughts as, yet another, US propped up despot I think he might have had some interesting insights, being an insider an all.



Osama bin Laden, ('who? OH him... right, I think I remember him') was trained by the CIA in Afghanistan to fight the 'evil' Russians but this too eventually went pear-shaped as most American interventionism in the Middle East tends to do. (Can you even tell me why you tyhink the US is SO involved in that particular part of the world?)

Israel is a nation of terrorists, not that Palestine isn't, yet the US is sides with Israel, proveds them with weapons, excuses and cover-ups all because of the worlds of one dusty old book.

Osama's damned lucky that everyone's been brainwashed into forgetting about him. Maybe he'll come good again one day. I guess it all depends how useful he is in the region.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
What infuriates me the most is that people who call themselves humanists are against this war. How can you be a humanist if you don't think we should do anything to help the humans in distress in Iraq.


What infuriates me most is people who use the fairytales of the ancient Greek myth of Herakles Romanised as Hercules and grafted onto the life of Yoshua-Ben-Yosef generations after the fact to claim moral and ethical superiority over those they decree to be heathens just because we value human life more than constructed ideology.

Humanists see all loss of life to be a tragic waste, not just those on 'our side'. Helping humans in distress is exactly what was NOT done in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are many people in distress in your own country, why aren't those military monies being spent to feed clothe and shelter those poor wretches?

If you choose to believe the lies then do so but don't think for one second that you can claim the high ground when you have no clue why the US really went after Saddam.

"Let's not forget, this is a man who tried to kill my dad at one point." George W Bush 43* (*not).
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Originally posted by: Regicidal_Maniac
How quickly the neo-con Right-wing Christian Reich choose to forget the facts of the past in order to continue the lies of the present.



Pretty lucky that Saddam Hussein, an absolute cock don't get me wrong, had that 'stroke' recently before he was due to be turned over to officials for questioning and trial. Too bad I'd have liked to hear his thoughts as, yet another, US propped up despot I think he might have had some interesting insights, being an insider an all.



Osama bin Laden, ('who? OH him... right, I think I remember him') was trained by the CIA in Afghanistan to fight the 'evil' Russians but this too eventually went pear-shaped as most American interventionism in the Middle East tends to do. (Can you even tell me why you tyhink the US is SO involved in that particular part of the world?)

Israel is a nation of terrorists, not that Palestine isn't, yet the US is sides with Israel, proveds them with weapons, excuses and cover-ups all because of the worlds of one dusty old book.

Osama's damned lucky that everyone's been brainwashed into forgetting about him. Maybe he'll come good again one day. I guess it all depends how useful he is in the region.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
What infuriates me the most is that people who call themselves humanists are against this war. How can you be a humanist if you don't think we should do anything to help the humans in distress in Iraq.


What infuriates me most is people who use the fairytales of the ancient Greek myth of Herakles Romanised as Hercules and grafted onto the life of Yoshua-Ben-Yosef generations after the fact to claim moral and ethical superiority over those they decree to be heathens just because we value human life more than constructed ideology.

Humanists see all loss of life to be a tragic waste, not just those on 'our side'. Helping humans in distress is exactly what was NOT done in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are many people in distress in your own country, why aren't those military monies being spent to feed clothe and shelter those poor wretches?

If you choose to believe the lies then do so but don't think for one second that you can claim the high ground when you have no clue why the US really went after Saddam.

"Let's not forget, this is a man who tried to kill my dad at one point." George W Bush 43* (*not).


TUT TUT TUT, there mr. Hateful saddam Hussien was put in power in the late 70's which was under carters reign. Secondly, you have a picture with Rumy shaking his hand, should i dig up a picture of CLinton shaking Kim Il's hand. Just because he shakes hands with the man doesnt mean that we supported him. There are other types of meetings and summits...

As for Osama bin Laden, do you know why we helped him???? There was once a pawn oh time something called the cold war. US vs. USSR. Well the USSR was invading afganastan and in order to help that country out, as well as frustrate our lang term enemty we aided in the training and arming of select troops. Kill two birds with one stone you know, 1) stop the spread of communism, and 2) aid a people group defend themselves...


WOW, after reading the Irsreal part i now understand you better. I will just leave it at that. You know what would happen if the US stopped asking the Irealy gov to play nice??? There would be no palistine thats what. Isreal has one of the best military forces in the world. Not to mention their Special Forces rival the worlds elite. When ever the US holds War games with Isreal they wamp us. If there was no US to try and hold back the Isreal, it would get really bad really fast for anyone and everyone attacking them.


Um, not are you surprisingly uninformed about the connection of Christianity to other non christian belief systems, if you are gonna go around spouting hate, you should probably spout informed hate. Your theory is not even close to what a vast majority of non-christian scholars believe to be the primary influsences of the development of what they would call the "christian myth"

you call people in america poor wretches, here are some stats for you, 85% of the people that are "impovrished in america" have color tv's and cable. The bottom line is that a vast amount of the "impoverished" in america live like Royalty when you compare them to the the people in the two countries in question. Further more, you dont solve poverty by throwing money at the people in it. We have a social well fare system in this country and it shoulders a good amount of the blame for people being sucked into the cycle of poverty. Why work when you can sit on your couch and eat government subsidised foods, collect a check, and watch cable in your free, or low cost housing...

Humanist my fat rear end, if humanist like you discribed ran the world in the 30's and 40's everyone here not from america would be speacking german...

that is all...


EDIT: no wait it isnt... why hasnt anyone answered my question from the last page or so???
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Originally posted by: Kingsama

Your theory is not even close to what a vast majority of non-christian scholars believe to be the primary influsences of the development of what they would call the "christian myth"


Not even close? Read another book once in a while.

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Humanist my fat rear end, if humanist like you discribed ran the world in the 30's and 40's everyone here not from america would be speacking german...


While I have no doubt your rear end is indeed fat your absurd (and Godwin's Law invoking) accusation speaks to the heart of your fundamental lack of understanding as to where your once great country is headed.

Believe what you like, but you're wrong anyway.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.