Is there anything that you actually like about the prequels? — Page 2

You can pretend to not understand what tentacle porn actually is but no one believes you. Just ask Dek Rollins.

Density said:

I don’t see the ending of TFA as weak (far from it - I loved it because it left me really excited for the next movie while at the same time not being too frustrating a cliffhanger), I can’t think of many plotholes (certainly far fewer than were in the prequels), and frankly I have no idea what you are talking about. Lucas’s “plots” (if you can call them that) were terrible. If we disagree on that then we’re just not going to agree on anything. And dialogue is a huge part of writing, and Lucas may be the worst dialogue writer of all time. The characters in TFA actually felt real, their interactions and motivations felt real, the humor felt lively rather than childish and cringey. It was just all a massive, massive improvement. Fortunately, my opinion is the majority opinion which is why future SW films are going to be more like TFA (which is a lot more like the OT, so I don’t understand how you don’t like it then) than the prequels.

Also, Lucas only directed one of those “first 3 forays into directing” you claim…

And if this was a Trekkie site I’d be crucified, but fuck it: I would watch Into Darkness any day of the week before Wrath of Khan and certainly before any of the prequels. I really just don’t care about originality as much as I do being entertained in sci-fi action movies like these. Something new but shitty isn’t nearly as good as something old but good. (Not that the prequels were exactly innovative - Lucas himself goes on about how they “rhymed” with the originals. TFA actually felt fresher to me despite the parallels with the original, probably because it was a new story with new characters and I didn’t know and still don’t know where it was all going, but we all knew how the prequels would end.)

Being entertained and being entertained intelligently are two different things. These new Star Trek films do not entertain intelligently and that was what made the original popular with fans. Not only some good action adventure, but stories with meat. The Wrath of Khan was about revenge. Into Darkness was about action scenes. The Wrath of Khan is hands down the best written and best produced of the Star Trek movies. Into Darkness couldn’t even make an intelligent plot. No one I know liked it. All the reviews I read of it were horrible. If you like pointless action then maybe it is a good film, but that isn’t science fiction.

And you are incorrect. The three films I was talking about weren’t the OT. Lucas directed THX-1138, American Graffiti, and Star Wars (A New Hope) - all fantastic movies with stellar casts and marvelous performances. So either he got rusty between 1976 and 1998 or the complaints about his directing abilities are incorrect. I love all 6 of his Star Wars stories (not the films equally, but the stories the films tell). I find his dialog writing in the PT to be rushed and careless. In the OT, he spent several years drafting Star Wars and had Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan to clean up Empire and Jedi. He didn’t have any help (credited anyway) for Eps I and III and considering his help for Ep II also penned The Scorpion King, I’m not sure he was of much help with the dialog. I think Lucas failed to put the effort into polishing the dialog. I think the story underneath is stellar.

And yes, I love that the Jedi are a bit twisted in how they do thing. The have been doing things this way for 1000 generations and after that length of time they are bound to be a bit out of touch. That is the point. They aren’t what they once were so they don’t detect Palpatine is the Sith lord. Their slanted view of things is one of the reasons the force it out of balance. And Palpatine takes great advantage of it by creating conflict and playing both sides. His actions are designed to get rid of the Jedi. The ultimate Sith victory scenario. I love how classic the stories are. Their execution could have been better, but I can see past a lot of the stuff that so bugs others. I keep hearing the CG looks fake. Well, in so many pre-CG effects movies I can see the effects so that is nothing new to movie making. A New Hope is so rife with production gaffs that I have a high tolerance for such things in a Star Wars film. I don’t demand perfection to be able to enjoy a story.

None of the first 6 films have any major plot holes. TFA has two huge ones that cannot be fixed unless you edit the film. Things that apparently were originally scripted to happen differently but Abrams the director took some shortcuts that really wreck the story. And the ending does suck. It isn’t an ending, it is a “to be continued” cheat. It puts off the real ending to the next film. More proof that Abrams sucks at ending stories. Each of the first 6 films has a solid ending. Empire nicely segues to Jedi, but the ending feels solid. TFA demands more from Luke than a look. Yeah, Rey found Luke, but now what? That scene should start a movie, not end one. Flying off to find Luke should be where the film ends. Either that or Luke needed some dialog.

So yeah, in the Prequels, I can forgive imperfect dialog, I can forgive a classic Hollywood style romance (which often happens just by the two characters interacting followed by some event that makes them realize they are in love - sound familiar), I can forgive noticeable special effects, but what I can’t forgive is bad writing or a director who rewrites badly during the editing process. Abrams creates great characters and cam write great scenes, but he is inept at writing a satisfactory conclusion to the stories he starts. He has proven that to me time and again. Many award winning writers share my opinion so do many fans of Star Trek and Lost. I bet Kasdan’s original script is far better than the film we got. We got a few token deleted scenes, but there are many more than that. We got a handful of minutes and there is evidently more than 20 minutes of things that were cut. I keep wondering what got cut that would have fixed the issues I have with the film.

yotsuya said:

And you are incorrect. The three films I was talking about weren’t the OT. Lucas directed THX-1138, American Graffiti, and Star Wars (A New Hope) - all fantastic movies with stellar casts and marvelous performances. So either he got rusty between 1976 and 1998 or the complaints about his directing abilities are incorrect.

So which do you believe?

The real answer is that he hates directing humans. Maybe that wasn’t the case in the beginning but it was certainly the case after ANH. You can see it time and again in interviews with him, interviews with the cast and crew, and the performances of otherwise good actors. He sucks at directing actors and furthermore he has no interest in it.

yotsuya said:

I can forgive a classic Hollywood style romance

Except that doesn’t exist in the PT.

The only two production flaws I ever noticed in ANH before the internet pointed them all out to me were the two bad jump cuts when igniting lightsabers. (Luke in obiwans hut and obiwan on the death star.) yes I see there are others now but only because of the internet.

I find it ridiculous that someone would consider Empire a good ending and TFA a cheat, and give reasons like “ESB felt solid” and “Luke needed dialog.”

Plot twist: Luke has become feral.

doubleofive said:

yotsuya said:

TFA has two huge ones that cannot be fixed unless you edit the film.

I must be extremely stupid, what huge plot holes are there in TFA that are inconsolable?

Don’t even waste your time. Every time I have asked someone this they have always tried to change the subject or have listed things that aren’t even plot holes. People just say TFA has massive plot holes just to say it.

I’d like to hear the answer.

TV’s Frink said:

I find it ridiculous that someone would consider Empire a good ending and TFA a cheat, and give reasons like “ESB felt solid” and “Luke needed dialog.”

TESB follows our main characters as they get split up and try to get away from the Empire. Luke goes to train and ends up back with them as they all try to finally get away. The ending gives us our remaining characters safe on a ship in the rebel fleet. Luke and Leia bid Lando and Chewy good luck finding Han and the two take off on a quest. The big story is wrapped up - the rebels are again safe, but they have lost Han. In TFA, the quest was to find Luke… then what. Showing that they found Luke was a weak ending. It’s like if TESB ended with Lando and Chewy landing on Tantooine and learning that Han is on display in Jabba’s palace. The unfinished quest worked better as an ending. Either no Luke or give Luke something interesting to say that makes the scene worth including. What they did didn’t work for me.

doubleofive said:

yotsuya said:

TFA has two huge ones that cannot be fixed unless you edit the film.

I must be extremely stupid, what huge plot holes are there in TFA that are inconsolable?

So, the Falcon leaves Jakku… How does Han happen to be right there? Where is the First Order. They were in orbit of Jakku and not having patrols out to detect an escaping ship is incredibly stupid, especially when Kylo Ren is so keen to capture them. The leaked spoilers said they jumped to hyperspace and then Han found them. As it sits it is a huge hole. Then there is Starkiller Base firing on the Republic. Nothing about it is explained in the movie. We know there is a Republic, but how big is it? They have a fleet, so was the entire fleet in one place? They destroyed a system and just how did the people on Takodana see it? Is Takodana is the same star system? How is the republic destroyed by destroying one star system? The Old Republic spanned thousands of system so is this a little upstart or will the Republic regroup? How is the fleet destroyed? Any government dealing with an adversary will have multiple fleets. Was a special event going on that brought all the ships of the fleet together? That entire sequence made no sense. It required me googling info on what they had intended (some of the missing deleted scenes) to even get an idea of what had been intended. As it is now, it just doesn’t work. It leaves more questions than it answers. Lucas managed to not have any such glaring absence of data. He always managed to keep the audience informed about what was going on. This just feels like sloppy writing combined with sloppy last minute edits and the result is a section of the movie that really ruins it for me.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

Plot Holes are those gaps in a story where things happen without a logical reason. When a Plot Hole involves something essential to a story’s outcome, it can hurt the believability, for those who are bothered by such things. Hitting a Plot Hole at high speed can damage your Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

So that you actually know what a plot hole is.

yotsuya said:
So, the Falcon leaves Jakku… How does Han happen to be right there?

That’s a plot convenience not a plot hole.

Where is the First Order. They were in orbit of Jakku and not having patrols out to detect an escaping ship is incredibly stupid, especially when Kylo Ren is so keen to capture them.

I don’t think incompetence can be considered a plot hole. If it is then The Empire not destroying the escape pod in STAR WARS is a massive plot hole as well.

Then there is Starkiller Base firing on the Republic. Nothing about it is explained in the movie. We know there is a Republic, but how big is it?

Not a plot hole

They have a fleet, so was the entire fleet in one place?

Still not a plothole, but Hux’s speech seems to indicate that the fleet is primarily located in the Hosnian system

They destroyed a system and just how did the people on Takodana see it?

I don’t know but it’s stupid that they did see it but again…it’s not a plot hole

How is the republic destroyed by destroying one star system? The Old Republic spanned thousands of system so is this a little upstart or will the Republic regroup?

Because it’s the seat of the Republic and at least the majority of the fleet is there. And most likely it isn’t completely destroyed but is fractured. We won’t know definitively until Episode VIII comes out.

How is the fleet destroyed?

What type of stupid ass question is this? Did you even watch the movie. Along with the planets you see ships being destroyed too.

SilverWook said:

Perhaps they are questions the next movie will answer? Then again, I’m still confused on the whole Sifo Diyas buying a clone army thing. 😉

Which happened 10 years prior…right around the time Palpatine became the Chancellor. Also Palpatine is trying to get the Military Creation Act to be approved while Padme is trying to oppose it and conveniently she is having attempts made on her life…I wonder who could be behind it all.

Lord Haseo said:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

Plot Holes are those gaps in a story where things happen without a logical reason. When a Plot Hole involves something essential to a story’s outcome, it can hurt the believability, for those who are bothered by such things. Hitting a Plot Hole at high speed can damage your Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

So that you actually know what a plot hole is.

Yup, exactly why those two scenes are plot holes in my book. Both took me right out of the movie.

Now let’s look at that claim on the escape from Hoth. How many ships left Hoth without a functioning hyperdrive? 1 - the Millennium Falcon. How many ships got chased from Hoth? 1 - the Millennium Falcon. Now, without a hyperdrive, the Millennium Falcon should have been easy to spot traveling from Jakku in real space. And what did Han say later? Something about the Falcon being easy to track. No, the entire sequence is just too convenient and strains credibility. All that would be needed is for Rey to engage the hyperdrive and have it carry them a short distance before it gives out leading to the necessary repairs that she then performed. And there is no way such a famous ship would not be in the First Order database and no way for it to escape detection (just like Han said). There is no internal consistency in the scene. It is a huge hole in the story.

SilverWook said:

Yes, but it must have cost trillions in whatever passes for currency in the SW universe. Who paid for it? Did Palpatine win the lottery? Whether the real Sifo Diyas was involved or not, Obi Wan or someone should have followed the money trail.

yeah, that whole plot point really bugs me. never makes sense how it could have been paid for by a jedi and nobody knew it. you would think you would want to verify that part of the story at least, before you just take the clones!

yotsuya said:
Yup, exactly why those two scenes are plot holes in my book. Both took me right out of the movie.

There is no “in my book” when it comes to definitions. You can’t change a definition based on your personal beliefs.

Now let’s look at that claim on the escape from Hoth. How many ships left Hoth without a functioning hyperdrive? 1 - the Millennium Falcon.

Why does that matter when there were multiple Star Destroyers and at least one Super Star Destroyer forming a blockade around the Hoth system? At least in TFA’s case there was one Star Destroyer orbiting Jakku.

And what did Han say later? Something about the Falcon being easy to track. No, the entire sequence is just too convenient and strains credibility.

That’s a fair assessment and that’s why like R2 waking up at the end of the film it’s a giant plot convenience but not a plot hole.

All that would be needed is for Rey to engage the hyperdrive and have it carry them a short distance before it gives out leading to the necessary repairs that she then performed.

A short distance is in any system close to Jakku? If so then yeah that would have been preferable.

And there is no way such a famous ship would not be in the First Order database and no way for it to escape detection (just like Han said). There is no internal consistency in the scene. It is a huge hole in the story.

The ship has been out of circulation for a while so it makes sense as to why it wouldn’t be in the database.

SilverWook said:

Yes, but it must have cost trillions in whatever passes for currency in the SW universe. Who paid for it? Did Palpatine win the lottery? Whether the real Sifo Diyas was involved or not, Obi Wan or someone should have followed the money trail.

Eh…but do those questions really matter?

yotsuya said:

Lord Haseo said:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

Plot Holes are those gaps in a story where things happen without a logical reason. When a Plot Hole involves something essential to a story’s outcome, it can hurt the believability, for those who are bothered by such things. Hitting a Plot Hole at high speed can damage your Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

So that you actually know what a plot hole is.

Yup, exactly why those two scenes are plot holes in my book. Both took me right out of the movie.

Unnecessary boobs in your tentacle porn movies take me right out of them, but that doesn’t make them plot holes.