International Audio (including Voice-Over Translations) — Page 5

CatBus said:

Whoah. So now I have a new theory for why they swapped out the Castilian audio for the compactor scene in the GOUT.

There is scored music in this scene, for the Castilian Spanish audio, that AFAICT isn't in any other version of Star Wars anywhere ever, and was removed on the Blu-ray release.  It sounds like part of the same piece that plays when R2 wakes up in the Sandcrawler and rolls through the menagerie of droids on the way to finding C-3PO.

I don't know exactly why this would make someone want to swap the audio out when they made the GOUT, but maybe they thought they had some sort of bastardized TV broadcast audio, and went back to their sources and found audio without this bit of the score.  Since the Latino dub has been out of circulation so long, maybe they didn't even know there was a second Spanish dub, and that's what they got by mistake.

Anyway, I sure hope I can incorporate this into the Castilian GOUT audio.  It's a little hissy, but the unique score definitely makes me want to try my best!

Then again, this VHS copy really is the sort of bastardized TV broadcast audio I mentioned.  It does have the made-for-TV voiceover on the crawl after all, so it's not theatrically accurate in that respect.  But would a TV version include such a slight alteration to the score?  Seems farfetched to me.

Any ideas?  Do you think this slightly different score was theatrical or not?

Yeah it's pretty strange.... I didn't know about the score alteration in the trash compactor scene... Maybe because I always watch the movies in english, lol... :-D

It's when the creature is grabbing Luke, ain't it?

I checked all my SW versions (with spanish castilian dub) and the result is amazing, because my GOUT DVD didn't has the alteration too, here's the result:

- Blu-Ray - as you said extra score removed

- DVD 2004 - extra score removed

- DVD GOUT 2006 - extra score removed

- VHS/LD 1995 - (the track I sent you) It has it!!

I 've just checked too Harmy's SW DEED 2.5 and I've noticed that during that scene the voices are changed. Someone add the Latin Spanish dub during that particular scene and then the movie return into Castilian spanish again.

So your version of the GOUT castilian spanish dub track has the score alteration???

If that's the case, they were different DVD prints of the GOUT DVD in Spain! And probably in Germany too, because we shared edition with them.

About the theatrical release in 1977, it's hard to know if it had the alteration... But it's clear that it was probably a mistake during the mixing process and it was remove later for the DVD releases. (and not previously in the TV broadcast)

I'm gonna send you a MP with my GOUT DVD track so you can compare it, This one is syncronized... It will be amazing if we can manage to syncronize the other version with the score alteration ;-)

Stupid quote bug again...

Isn't it better to GOUT-sync (if it isn't synced already) the whole VHS audio, and have it as a second option? It's kind of unique.

hairy_hen said:

Doesn't the German version also have the music in the garbage pit scene?  That too was deleted when they remixed it for the SE, from what I've heard.

 Just checked my R2 GOUT DVD again, the german track doesn't have music in that particular scene... :-)

hairy_hen said:

I've definitely heard the German version with the music . . . so that means there must have been a concerted effort during the preparation of the GOUT to get rid of it from all the international dubs containing that music.

Why certain countries got the music back then while most didn't remains a mystery, but it seems certain that somebody really doesn't want it to be there.

That's what I think too. It was removed on purpose for the GOUT DVD's releases to match the original english track. And maybe it was done just for the countries with a strong tradition in dubbing (France, Italy, Spain, Germany) and in other countries old dubbings remained intact with the altered score...

I don't know... but Catbus said (that's what I understood) that he has a castilian spanish DVD GOUT audio track with the altered score.

My SW DVD hasn't it, so If that's the case there are different DVD GOUT releases, with and without the altered score... and maybe not just for the spanish track, maybe for others dubs too... Sounds crazy but it would be nice if we can check this out with more people who own the GOUT DVD's

Feallan said:

Stupid quote bug again...

Isn't it better to GOUT-sync (if it isn't synced already) the whole VHS audio, and have it as a second option? It's kind of unique.

Hahah yeah... at the end it's no so important... Maybe for preservation purposes this track it's unique, not just for the bug, the voice over on the crawl it's good detail to preserve too... But that's the idea, to have it like a second option in fan SW releases like harmy's DEED ;-)

I didn't have troubles syncronizing TESB and ROTJ, it was very easy to do it. But with SW, was a real pain... and finally I couldn't. Someone told me sometime ago, that the SW VHS's and LD's from 1995 have an extra frame in the video... and that's why it can be syncronice wihtout touching the video or something like that.

At that point it completely exceeds my knowledge. I know how to cut, mux, demux audio, change fps, etc... But I'm real lost on how to synch this particular SW track.

If anyone knows... "please help, you're my only hope" :-)

And remember Just MP me or tell me in the post if anyone wants these spanish VHS audio tracks.

My Castilian GOUT track is from the PAL GOUT posted on the newsgroups--that apparently had the weird switched-out Latino audio, but no score.  Not sure, but I think there was a GOUT reissue in Germany.  Maybe this was the original pre-reissue German GOUT?

So... if I get a copy of the GOUT audio from Hostmaster which is 100% correct (no Latino Spanish) except for the music during the compactor scene, I could use whatever magic was used with the German audio to bring it back.  Laserschwert, any advice?  Do you have something like an isolated score that you used?

Hrm, well... worst-case scenario, I suppose we'll just get my original goal, which is 100% Castilian dialogue w/ GOUT audio and no SE elements.  Certainly better than mixed dialects, and I hate that there are really audible SE sound effects in my original "fixed" track.  True theatrical fidelity may have to wait, if I can't get the score right.

Yeah, my audio track is from the Region 2 GOUT DVD  and is 100% castilian spanish, with no latino american spanish audio mix in it.

I think it shouldn't be difficult to recreate the music effect with the soundtrack... Even the isolated track of many star wars fan projects of this forum has that particular segment.

About the VHS track if you have any clues in how to syncronized it, just let me know... but anyway I'll make new attempts, wrinting about all of this story it's rising up my motivation again to make new tries. lol

My suggestion is to break your VHS audio into reels, then use audio from another source to bridge any gaps between reels.  Reel changes are where frames typically get dropped.

The reel changes are listed somewhere around here, but I remember Reel 1 ends at the transition to 3PO's oil bath, Reel 2 ends after Tarkin says "one swift stroke" (well, in English!), Reel 3 ends (I think) after the Falcon is captured, just before Tarkin says "Yes" to his intercom.  And there's one right in the middle of the compactor scene, just before Luke comes back out of the water.  My memory is pretty fuzzy beyond that.

CatBus said:

My suggestion is to break your VHS audio into reels, then use audio from another source to bridge any gaps between reels.  Reel changes are where frames typically get dropped.

The reel changes are listed somewhere around here, but I remember Reel 1 ends at the transition to 3PO's oil bath, Reel 2 ends after Tarkin says "one swift stroke" (well, in English!), Reel 3 ends (I think) after the Falcon is captured, just before Tarkin says "Yes" to his intercom.  And there's one right in the middle of the compactor scene, just before Luke comes back out of the water.  My memory is pretty fuzzy beyond that.

Thanks CatBus! Good advise, probably in this way it will be easy to find the frame that is ruining my project, lol... I'll let you all know if I get it! :-)

marvins said:

I'm checking my french audio tracks but I don't hear any extra music.

When exactly does that appears ?

 When Luke is grabbed by a creature inside the trash compactor :-)

Okay, last question-- assuming the "new international master" theory, what OTHER changes have the German team found?  I know there's missing dialogue that's German-specific, but what about sound effects, etc?

marvins said:

Ok I have it for the french tracks :

1987 TV diffusion : No music

1989 1st LD Release : No music

1991 VHS release : No Music

1995 LD THX : Music

2004 DVD Mix : No music

2006 GOUT : No music

So only the LD THX release have the music in the trash compactor sequence. I know that the THX release have little more differences, some sentences are missing, but I never took the time to notice them all.

Here is the sequence : https://mega.co.nz/#!ONxyGRib!seIrfeiTYvMcuxOk2ONDYcnSghJl1s1a_XZMfYdpPe0

So I guess the question is: aside from the music, is the GOUT missing anything that's present in another mix?  That doesn't necessarily mean the extra stuff is theatrical, but using the GOUT as a starting point, what exactly is missing?  It's at least a point of reference.

OK, using the French Laserdisc audio from marvins as a reference for volume levels, I generated Spanish, French, and Italian audio with this bit of music included.  It sounds... well, frankly it sounds really odd, because I'm just not used to that music being there, and I'm not sure I'll ever get used to it.  But it sounds like the Laserdisc reference, so there you are.

I'm still waiting to hear back on two things:

- some level of certainty (probably not a lot, but more than I have now) about which of our other 1977 foreign dubs were like this theatrically (I'm sold on Spanish, likely sold on French, and on the fence with Italian)  Presumably the original Japanese dub is affected too, but Japanese got completely new dubs for home video, and I understand most people prefer them to the originals, so I'm content to ignore the theatrical ones.

- some idea if there are other missing odd bits of audio to look for, while I'm in here editing--I think I recall something about some of Chewie's howls being missing on the German GOUT, for example, and I'd like to check these on the other tracks, if I knew where to look.

After that, I'll share something if anyone's interested.  If nothing else, we'll have eliminated the various weird issues with the Spanish track without adding SE audio.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and what about the other films? :-/

I'm interested in the Spanish, French, Italian audio pack with the extra music in the trash compactor... In fact the spanish audio can help me to restore my THX VHS audio track. It will be easier because I only need to cut and add the voice over part of the crawl to the rest of your track and I'm sure it will be fully syncronized... :-)

So if I get this straight, the "new" cue was introduced at some stage during mastering of the 1995 French and Spanish TXH LD&VHS ?

CatBus said:

I'm still waiting to hear back on two things:

- some level of certainty (probably not a lot, but more than I have now) about which of our other 1977 foreign dubs were like this theatrically (I'm sold on Spanish, likely sold on French, and on the fence with Italian)

Theatrically? I will put money on this that none of them had the music. Not the spanish, not the french, german or italian. The odds and evidence are against it.

Leonardo said:

So if I get this straight, the "new" cue was introduced at some stage during mastering of the 1995 French and Spanish TXH LD&VHS ?

CatBus said:

I'm still waiting to hear back on two things:

- some level of certainty (probably not a lot, but more than I have now) about which of our other 1977 foreign dubs were like this theatrically (I'm sold on Spanish, likely sold on French, and on the fence with Italian)

Theatrically? I will put money on this that none of them had the music. Not the spanish, not the french, german or italian. The odds and evidence are against it.

I would agree, except Laserschwert has access to a 35mm German film print with that extra music present.  So it's there for German theatrically for sure, and it was scrubbed out for some German home video releases and the GOUT, which matches exactly what we've seen for the other languages so far.

I'm just trying to piece together an audio timeline that can explain all of this, and the most logical one says they've all got it, then they all got scrubbed for home video, then when they went back to do THX, they forgot to re-scrub it out.  I think the evidence is weak, sure, but it's in favor of it being a theatrical element.

CatBus said:

Leonardo said:

So if I get this straight, the "new" cue was introduced at some stage during mastering of the 1995 French and Spanish TXH LD&VHS ?

CatBus said:

I'm still waiting to hear back on two things:

- some level of certainty (probably not a lot, but more than I have now) about which of our other 1977 foreign dubs were like this theatrically (I'm sold on Spanish, likely sold on French, and on the fence with Italian)

Theatrically? I will put money on this that none of them had the music. Not the spanish, not the french, german or italian. The odds and evidence are against it.

I would agree, except Laserschwert has access to a 35mm German film print with that extra music present.  So it's there for German theatrically for sure, and it was scrubbed out for some German home video releases and the GOUT, which matches exactly what we've seen for the other languages so far.

I'm just trying to piece together an audio timeline that can explain all of this, and the most logical one says they've all got it, then they all got scrubbed for home video, then when they went back to do THX, they forgot to re-scrub it out.  I think the evidence is weak, sure, but it's in favor of it being a theatrical element.

 huh. I did not expect that. Very interesting.
Still, I think we need more theatrical evidence JEDIT for the other languages (i.e. very early tape masters maybe?).

As stated on the other thread my tape is from 1991 and most likely uses the 1985 IP, no Greedo subs, opening and closing credits are spliced in from another telecine (possibly an earlier release, who knows). It's what I'd call an "International master". The audio is pitched down, so it was tampered with. Still, the notion that there was music and they got rid of it in post sounds unlikely to me. Mostly because the track does not sound like a remix, while the THX track clearly is and a very bad one at that. There's bleeding of the english voices in the bass frequencies throughout the whole movie, and whoever did it mixed a music/effects track with an italian track that was already a mixdown, and not a voice only track, so there's all sorts of horrible delay artefacts on the score and sound effects throughout the whole movie.

Such is the state of A/V archaeology when all we have access to is consumer releases ;)

That German track is really what's making this all so tricky for me. Certainly there are explanations for why it would be on the German 35mm prints and not some of the other languages, and then show up again for all of them later on the THX remasters, but they all involve some unnecessary logistical contortions. I'm attracted to the simplest explanation because it's simplest, but that's no guarantee at all that it's the correct explanation...

And seriously, if you had that music in your movie, would you expend a lot of effort to try to remove it before it came out on video? I sure would! ;)