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Info & Feedback Wanted: Great or Horrible Lines? - ROTJ

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I’ve been working on a return of the Jedi fan edit and don’t know about a lot of the lines in here regarding the “power of the dark side”. Vader constantly refers to this but I thought what made his turn convincing in RoTS was because he came to terms with himself that the Jedi were evil. The best villains (aka Vader) believe they are doing what’s right. Vader by telling Luke that he is under estimating the dark side Vader is quite literally acknowledging his actions are dark/evil. And likes line “I can feel the good in you, the conflict…” Damn it just feels so unnatural and contradictory to Anakins character established in prequel fan edits and literature like Matthew stover’s RotS Novelization. Wondering if I should consider cutting these out? Thanks again everyone.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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In those scenes Luke is telling Vader that he believes there is good (the light side from a Jedi perspective) in him still.
Vader says that Obi-Wan (the friend and mentor he murdered in the first film) once felt the same.
He isn’t acknowledging at this point any sign that what he has been doing is wrong or evil but necessary because his master is too strong to dethrone without help and the galaxy needs strong leadership.
To some extent they share the same ambition (getting rid of the Emperor) but their intended next moves are different.
Vader wants to become the Emperor for the sake of the galaxy and would probably be a more stoic and militant leader than the jolly old prune faced master strategist currently running the show. Luke wants to save his father and hand the rule of the galaxy back to the chaos of democracy, because stable government just isn’t fair, and he want’s to hang out with his friends.
My only suggested changes would be (if possible) change the line on the landing platform on Endor so Vader says : “Your mother once thought as you do” as it makes more contextual sense and evokes the memory of a female character in an almost men only trilogy.
It still works as she was someone like Luke, Vader cared about and lost as a necessary evil for the ‘good’ of the Empire.
It might not be possible but adding some line along the lines of : “What I am is for the good of the galaxy” But then leave Vader ruminating on what he might have to do and if he really believes his own words. It might strengthen what’s already there.
As they currently stand I don’t have a problem with those lines. There are lots wrong with ROTJ but those lines isn’t one of those.

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Ok I get that but how about “I feel the good in you, the conflict.” And then by the end Vader says “you underestimate the power of the dark side”. What I see here is Luke telling Vader there’s good in him and Vader pretty much saying “but being bad is strong and stuff”. “Dark Side” is too on the nose for any sith to use. Vader should say you underestimate the power of the sith. Or just remove the line.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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Palpatine himself talks about the powers of the Dark Side in ROTS, so changing Vader’s lines in ROTJ to better fit ROTS doesn’t seem necessary to me.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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The Sith use the same terminology as the Jedi but that doesn’t follow that they believe themselves to be evil.
Batman doesn’t think he is a villain when he doesn’t dismiss the term “Dark Knight”.
There may be honour in controlling and using the not immediately seen, the hidden, the nocturnal side of the Force.
When Luke says “There is good in you, I have felt it”, Vader could easily retort, “Yes I am Good, I am serving the people by giving them stability and order, there is good in you too, join me”.
He as good as offers this to Luke in ESB.

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But Luke and Vader never on the inside actually WANT to be EVIL. Anakin turns because he hates the Jedi code, believes the sith are the light side and the Jedi are the dark side. Once he is lost in his power and grandeur, gets his legs cut off and becomes more machine than man that he might as well throw himself into his work. Luke is tempted by rage and if he killed Vader he would believe his friends were dead by then, the rebellion was crushed, all hopes of converting his father were gone and he had the emperor waiting for him with open arms to rule together. Luke would choose the emperor at that point. By him not killing Vader he chooses to do the noble thing and die rather than make the previous mistakes of his father. Then Vader cleans it all up himself by killing the emperor and realizing he fullfills his true destiny and that neither the sith or the Jedi of the old republic were right but that Luke had shown him back to the good path.
Now by having somebody motivate you to turn to the dark side by saying “turn to the dark side” it is so weak! Above I explained how intricate manipulation of ones moral compass and friends around him can turn him to the dark side. Not simply repeating in many forms of “turn to the dark side”. I feel like these lines in ROTJ cheapen the turn of Anakin in RoTS and Lukes possible turn in ROTJ.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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As I say dark doesn’t necessarily equate with bad to those who use the dark side, there are positive uses of the term in everyday English.

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I have more or less the same problem with that part of ROTJ, but I think at that point in the trilogy you either accept the fairy-tale vocabulary or you just won’t learn to appreciate the original trilogy.

Though yes, for a lot of time it bothered me and felt out of place somehow. Particularly the line “It’s to late for me, son”. That just sounds like an addict’s words instead of someone who does what he does with conviction.

And then there’s Hamill’s strange delivery of the line “theconflicwithinyouletgooffyourhate”.

Aaaand the scenery. Though it is to be said that in general the OT has an accurate sense of scale which generally fits the mood and importance of what’s happening on screen, ROTJ falls short on this (not that I’m asking for a gazilion-metres-long bridge over a pit with a samurai standing on one end and a single beam of light passing trough a window to illuminate the good guy…)

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Mithrandir said:

I have more or less the same problem with that part of ROTJ, but I think at that point in the trilogy you either accept the fairy-tale vocabulary or you just won’t learn to appreciate the original trilogy.

There’s only really bad fairy-tale vocabulary in RotJ.

Reading R + L ≠ J theories