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Info: a Smear-free '93 ?

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 (Edited)

You might remember not too long ago Harmy wondered if he’d found a grail when he noticed less smearing on his PAL THX compared to GOUT.

Harmy’s thread is here.

I suggest opening that thread in a new browser window so you’ll be able to compare many of the same frames.

Maybe I follow Harmy down the same dark path . . . or maybe I’m onto something heretofore unknown. I hope you can help figure it out.

So anyway … I was at Disneyland the other day, and a serious preservationist turned me onto this.
The disc was mastered on 1993-08-21. DC project was already in pre-production by then Shirley [RIP]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/415/025517.png
Look, there’s our old friends! Do you recognize them ?

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6635/153910.png
L.S.D.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9011/330620.png
IVTC’ed – that’s why the display is wonky

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3393/034511.png

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/959/043012.png
d00d’s about to get Vasoline all over his boots. Watch your step!
(In GOUT the Vasoline has already dissolved his boots 😉

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6153/102222.png
Look Ma, no shrinkage

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6826/063028.png
We don’t need no shrinkin’ ratio!

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6513/393416.png

The next one was made a few days ago, so might have had different settings (bright/contrast/color/hue) than everything above.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7831/122627.png

There is three seconds video (17MiB) of this shot in motion

So what do you think? Is it worth a damn?
Not so much talking about the quality of samples shown, but rather the source.
Could this be the most important laserdisc you’ve never heard of?
Can it stand beside JSC as a smear-free alternative to GOUT?
Is this a disc aleksbmw will want to capture on his Hercules?
Will breaking this story earn honorable mention on TV’s listing Who’s Who Among Darths ?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Darth Mallwalker said:

Will breaking this story earn honorable mention on TV's listing Who's Who Among Darths ?

Son of a...

Going to add you now. :-)

EDIT: Added.

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So you're saying there was a 1993 laserdisc release that is NTSC but with no DVNR smearing? Is it on LDDb? 

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Darth Mallwalker said:

You might remember not too long ago Harmy wondered if he'd found a grail when he noticed less smearing on his PAL THX compared to GOUT.
Harmy's thread is here.
I suggest opening that thread in a new browser window so you'll be able to compare many of the same frames.

Maybe I follow Harmy down the same dark path . . . or maybe I'm onto something heretofore unknown. I hope you can help figure it out.


So anyway ... I was at Disneyland the other day, and a serious preservationist turned me onto this.
The disc was mastered on 1993-08-21. DC project was already in pre-production by then Shirley [RIP]


http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6635/153910.png
L.S.D.

Wow!   A two-eyed trooper!  That find is awesome.  The possibilities give me hope.

Will breaking this story earn honorable mention on TV's listing Who's Who Among Darths ?

I think the fact that your post is crammed with insider jokes ought to put you on Fink's list for that fact alone!

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So...sorry what is the source of this? A Laserdisc pressed in August of 1993? How do you know when this was mastered?

Also, this looks to me like it is the JSC. I think in one of the other threads on SE changes we discovered that the JSC was actually released in the United States as the 1992 LD, so could that be what this is?

I'm a little hesitatant to believe this is just the DC without DVNR, because the colours and video quality don't match at all. Actually, there's an awful lot of video noise on there that makes it look like its actually quite an older master than 1993 (again--1986?).

Some clarrification about the source and format of this and your info might help.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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The lack of clipped white levels and different cropping seems to indicate that this LD certainly did not come from the 1993 DC/Faces/GOUT telecine.

Could this be the true 'shrink fixed' version davisdvd was talking about, but released in 1993 instead of 1992?

The 1989 laserdisc was quietly reissued with the newly corrected letterboxed transfer, completely doing away with the "incredible shrinking ratio" problem.

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Red5 said:

Could this be the true 'shrink fixed' version davisdvd was talking about, but released in 1993 instead of 1992?

It is precisely that.
lddb.com
Mastering date is etched into the dead wax.

I suspect it's from a different source than JSC & SWE:ISR
Visual evidence will follow....

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Darth Mallwalker said:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/415/025517.png
Look, there's our old friends! Do you recognize them ?

 I don't think these marks are present on the JSC? or am I wrong.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Aren't they on the PAL '95 laserdiscs?

Hmm.  I've always thought that a smear-free source might be good to use in a project that is primarily GOUT-based, but substitutes the shots most affected by DVNR with a cleaner source.  Even if the overall difference in quality and colour and so forth didn't match up exactly, it could still make for a more satisfactory viewing experience.  Perhaps this laserdisc would be a good choice for that.

Incidentally, what sound mix does it have?

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This is slightly off-topic, but building on what was suggesting above, if you are editing non-smear sources into a GOUT-based comp, why couldn't one just use the 2004 DVD, colour-correct it (which you will have to do with any source anyway) and then just softening it until it matches the GOUT in terms of detail/resoution? I know about crushed blacks and stuff, but when dealing with matching GOUT-levels of detail this really should make no difference. Because it seems filling in the GOUT DVNR patches with any alternate, even this or the JSC, will not work because the video does not match due to lack of resolution and other problems that are not easily correctable (i.e. all the video noise we see here).

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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You could definitely do that in some places, and it would probably give much better results, but any shots with cgi changes wouldn't work at all without a lot of effort to remove them.  In those cases noisy but non-smeared laserdiscs are the best thing available--not great, but still preferable to the GOUT in the worst shots.

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hairy_hen said:


Aren't they on the PAL '95 laserdiscs?
Yup
Moth3r's & Citizen's are where I first met them. GOUT has 'em too -- beneath the DVNR layer.
Look closely and you'll see artifacts.
And msycamore is correct: they're not apparent on JSC, but that doesn't really prove anything for certain.
It's not too difficult to imagine for example, the IP might've got damaged during the seven years after JSC was published.
But again I say, I think it's not the same IP/print/whatever-film-source
as JSC. Pictures at eleven...

hairy_hen said:

Incidentally, what sound mix does it have?
Ooops, I meant to include that in the O.P.
It's coupled to the main reactor in seven locations ;) although I've not compared dynamics et al against the other three SWE pressings.

Incidentally, my S/PDIF project is fully armed and operational.
One of these days, when I'm bored, I'm gonna rip all my LD's and post 'em....

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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And msycamore is correct: they're not apparent on JSC, but that doesn't really prove anything for certain.

Also not on the CED.

(http://noneinc.com/tteesstt/SW_2FrameGlitch/SW_2FrameGlitch-CED_2.jpg)

*Speculation* but this CED was an outdated format by the time they released anything and the JSC was released towards the end of the laserdisc run, would LFL have thrown a lesser 'master' copy for these home releases which they were probably financial obligated to do but not fully behind?  or were CED's produced in Japan and that's a possible connection for a different master being used...

http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/star-wars.html

This page says they were pressed in Carrollton, Georgia, so theory 2 is crap....

...and you went to Disneyland and were not "raped" and/or "killed", you might not be SERIOUS enough with your preservation activities.

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The cropping in the second landspeeder shot also looks different in the JSC, now I am confused, and excited! :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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The JSC was released in 1986. Hardly the end of the Laserdisc era.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Darth Mallwalker said:

 

Red5 said:

Could this be the true 'shrink fixed' version davisdvd was talking about, but released in 1993 instead of 1992?

It is precisely that.
lddb.com
Mastering date is etched into the dead wax.

I suspect it's from a different source than JSC & SWE:ISR
Visual evidence will follow....

 

According to LDDb, the etchings on my copy represent the Mitsubushi (1992) pressing. Is there a difference? Does my disc have the shrinking aspect ratio?

What is SWE:ISR? Never added that one to the acronym buster...

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ISR Incredible Shrinking Ratio but not sure what "E" is.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Got it: Special Widescreen Edition.

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*** OFF-TOPIC ***

What I'm about to say refers to mine & Moth3r's Mitsubishi-pressed SWE:ISR
which is NOT the topic of this thread.

My Mitsubishi mint marks are:
C1130-85 A 04
C1130-85 B 05
C1130-85 C 07
Moth3r what are yours?

My Mitsubishi pics are in this thread. Mine is not fixed: it still shrinks.
Moth3r would you please, please, please check your copy (if your player isn't packed away) and tell us whether or not yours shrinks at those two reel changeover points which I've shown in that thread?
Since that thread is really about the Mitsubishi pressing, maybe I should post my mint marks there, or maybe you could quote my marks into that thread...

</OFF-TOPIC>

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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C1130-85 A 03
C1130-85 B 03
C1130-85 C 04

I'll try and get some screenshots in the next day or two. 

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Darth Mallwalker said:


We don't need no shrinkin' ratio!
We don't need no stinkin' shrinkin'



http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1466/25282.png
JSC

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2451/063015.png
SWE:ISR (Mitsubishi, Japan)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5250/063027.png
This

The glue is different. Globs of clear glue are replaced with uniform layer of blue glue (or blue tape?)
It's important to mention this is the end of a reel, so the 'rules of glue' might well be different here than mid-reel.

I'll go out on a limb and say it's probably a different telecine.
Even if bad DVNR was later applied to the earlier telecine, I wouldn't expect a blue stripe to be the result.

To a casual observer it suggests a different print, although I don't claim to have proven anything.
Maybe it could be the same print, with the leaders at the end of the reel having been changed?
I don't know the 'rules of glue' nor the rules of film.
Would it even be possible to remove the glue and splice on a different leader without sacrificing the last frame?
Is it possible somebody used solvent to remove the glue, left the solvent soaking on the film too long which caused the blue streak?
I don't understand the chemistry of the cement, nor the film stock.
Is it even possible to remove the glue?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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That "blue stripe" is certainly easier on the eyes, it would be nice if that is how the other splices look as those glue marks are all over the place in the JSC, it would also be interesting to know if it misses the many frames the JSC do.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:


it would also be interesting to know if it misses the many frames the JSC do.

So far I've checked the end of the first reel (See to it personally, Commander. There'll be no one to stop us this time.) and also the end of the reel (You'll have to sell your speeder.) whose glue is seen in the "Look Ma, no shrinkage" screen cap.
In both of those shots, all GOUT frames are present here. By contrast, JSC is missing some frames from the ends of those reels.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Darth Mallwalker said:

So far I've checked the end of the first reel (See to it personally, Commander. There'll be no one to stop us this time.) and also the end of the reel (You'll have to sell your speeder.) whose glue is seen in the "Look Ma, no shrinkage" screen cap.
In both of those shots, all GOUT frames are present here. By contrast, JSC is missing some frames from the ends of those reels.

Oh, now I see it. Interesting, then this LD may beat the JSC as a smear-free alternative! The picture quality seems to be equal to the JSC, the frame seems to be cropped on all four sides though. It is hard to tell but the colors seems even better in some instances, this is great. :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com