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Info: Weird Defect Found - DJ's 1985 CAV P&S preservation

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 (Edited)

While practicing IVTCing on DJ’s 1985 CAV P&S preservation, I noticed that the following defect appears at the top of every single shot.

Example

What might be responsible for this defect?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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I think it's in the print that was  used? There's a lot of stuff on the edges that gets covered up by a projector aperture plate or letterbox bars.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

I think it's in the print that was  used? There's a lot of stuff on the edges that gets covered up by a projector aperture plate or letterbox bars.

True, but why would this happen at the start of every shot?

Might it support my idea that every shot existed separately at one point in time?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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 (Edited)

Film splice marks? Some of the letterboxed LD transfers have thin curved lines that appear on both sides at the bottom of the frame at each cut.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

SilverWook said:

Film splice marks? Some of the letterboxed LD transfers have thin curved lines that appear on both sides at the bottom of the frame at each cut.

Are you referring to those ugly glue marks that are all over the JSC or something different?

These? http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Print-variations-in-77-Star-Wars/post/602211/#TopicPost602211

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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That does look like them. Been a while since I've watched the JSC.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Pretty sure that's glue. You see a lot of stuff like that in "before -> after" shots with restorations derived from prints rather than the negatives. Sometimes if an older (unremastered) anime is imported from Japan the tape masters/etc. that are sent over were further modified by the domestic release company and zoomed in in order to hide such defects.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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If you are referring to the white dashed like line, that seems more like a video artifact.  Glue splices are not this precise or travel single file like this thing. 

Maybe those dashes are a set of broadcast data which in the old days wouldn't be seen as tv tubes overscan would cut this off.  Did CAV's have a form of copyright protection?

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Unlike VHS or Beta, Laserdiscs did not have any anti copying signals at all. It's one reason Disney occasionally screwed over LD fans by releasing their big titles a whole year after the VHS came out.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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none said:

If you are referring to the white dashed like line, that seems more like a video artifact.  Glue splices are not this precise or travel single file like this thing.

I am.

What's crazy is that it appears at the beginning of every shot. I can't imagine why that'd be the case.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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AntcuFaalb said:

What might be responsible for this defect?

It looks like a video dropout.  But I don't know what could cause a laserdisc player to have a dropout at the top of the frame at each scene change.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Could you post the frame just before it? And some more examples?

And, does this LD have any DVNR smearing or similar things?

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

AntcuFaalb said:

What might be responsible for this defect?

It looks like a video dropout.  But I don't know what could cause a laserdisc player to have a dropout at the top of the frame at each scene change.

It definitely does look like a video dropout, but it's so consistent that I can't believe it is.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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You_Too said:

Could you post the frame just before it? And some more examples?

And, does this LD have any DVNR smearing or similar things?

Sure, but I'll have to do it when I get home tonight.

No DVNR. The first DVNR release was the DC in '93, I believe. This LD is from 1985 and is from the same transfer as the 1982 VHS. http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00897/1130-84/

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

Author
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 (Edited)

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

AntcuFaalb said:

What might be responsible for this defect?

It looks like a video dropout.  But I don't know what could cause a laserdisc player to have a dropout at the top of the frame at each scene change.

Not a dropout, as it covers two lines, possibly more through it's hard to tell with the video compression. Dropouts only affect a single line.

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Moth3r said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

AntcuFaalb said:

What might be responsible for this defect?

It looks like a video dropout.  But I don't know what could cause a laserdisc player to have a dropout at the top of the frame at each scene change.

Not a dropout, as it covers two lines, possibly more through it's hard to tell with the jpeg compression. Dropouts only affect a single line.

It's MPEG-2 compression. The image itself is a (lossless, by design) PNG.

(Unfortunately, DJ's 1985 CAV preservation was only ever released on a DVD5, so it's riddled with macroblocking.)

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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It's not video related, some sort of damage that is visible on both this print and also in the same way for the one they used for ESB, I've seen the same thing on -1's prints. It's a good indicator you're seeing too much of the frame when it's visible.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Could it be from the widescreen to pan-n-scan conversion?  In most cases, each shot in the movie was reframed for 4x3 (instead of just hacking-off the right and left sides).  These might be artifacts from whatever process the studio used.  And, as none said, they would have been hidden by TV overscan, so Fox probably wasn't concerned.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall recently seeing something similar during some scene changes on my Star Trek: TMP - Special Longer Version LD...but they were bright orange lines.  And, like these, they would have been hidden by the overscan.

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OmegaMattman said:

Could it be from the widescreen to pan-n-scan conversion? 

I don't think it's video related, the scrape lines are also seen on actual 35mm release prints. Being white my guess is that they were either introduced on the camera negative or internegative.

Maybe someone with more knowledge about film could chime in and help explain why this early 80's print used for Star Wars home video looks like it does (large glue marks on almost every single cut) Does Star Wars being an A-B cut negative have something to do with it? It sort of looks like a 16mm film where they didn't use the "checkerboard" pattern, where you're alternating scenes back and forth on the A and B roll in order to make invisible splices.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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It could be from a faulty projector part on something the print was run on that caused damage in that particular spot throughout.

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They're splice marks from the negative. Every single negative is going to have this, it's just that most transfers don't reveal the uppermost part of the frame.

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I see something similar to this at the bottom of shots when watching old episodes of Pokemon. Like Treadwell says, it's likely negative splices.

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I don't know anything about this type of stuff as I'm lay-person.

But, if someone asked me what I thought about it ..... I'd say it looks like damage, like the film stock it was derived from was cracking due to being pinched or bent in a roller or something.

Otherwise, I got nothing ......

:)

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It's negative splices folks. I was a projectionist and these lines were there on about every print in between every shot.

Realize that 35 hot splices are done by cutting off a bit of the frame before or after the first or last frame of the shot, scrapping away the emulsion, and then hot cementing it to the film or slug of your A/B roll. This will inevitably overlap the shots before and after, so that's what you are seeing: a clear piece of celuloid that is cemented over the film.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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In this particular transfer, they didn't crop off the top to hide the splice marks. I've seen the same thing happen in the projection booth when a newbie accidently framed the gate too high.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.