Info Wanted: Unaltered Star Trek TOS in HD? does an HD version of the unaltered original Star Trek series even officially exist?

Author: joefavs
Date: 5-Jan-2016, 12:51 AM

Author: joefavs
Time: 5-Jan-2016 12:51 AM (Edited)
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Hey folks, this has been on my mind for the past few weeks and I was wondering if any of you could clear it up. I’ve been re-watching Star Trek (TOS) for the first time in a couple years, and while I’m enjoying it immensely for the most part, I’m a little bugged by the HD versions that are available on Netflix and Amazon Prime streaming. As anyone with the knowledge to answer this question probably already knows, some years back the original Trek was given the Lucas treatment, and all the external space shots that were originally done with models were replaced with CGI. The result is much less obnoxious than the Star Wars SEs, but it’s still kind of incongruous and distracting. Anyway, this is the only version on Netflix, and Amazon only has the unaltered ones in SD, so I was wondering: does an HD version of the unaltered original Star Trek series even officially exist? If so, where can I find it? If not, has anyone at this site or a similar one done some sort of reconstruction? I don’t care about authentic audio, and in fact would prefer the 5.1 mixes of the remastered versions because they’re actually very good, but I’d love to see the original effects shots without having to watch the old SD transfers.

Author: SilverWook
Time: 5-Jan-2016 12:59 AM
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IIRC, the Blu Rays have seamless branching to the unaltered shots in HD.

Where were you in '77?

Author: joefavs
Time: 5-Jan-2016 1:06 AM
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The idea of seamless branching for this sort of thing on an official release seemed so unlikely to me as a Star Wars fan that it never even occurred to me that it might be the case. A little googling confirms that that is in fact true, thank you. I’ll let this thread sink into oblivion now.

Author: SilverWook
Time: 5-Jan-2016 1:26 AM
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If it makes you feel any better, the HD DVD season one set didn’t have it. 😉

Where were you in '77?

Author: Wazzles
Time: 5-Jan-2016 12:18 PM
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I’m not entirely sure it’s seamless. The color timing of the live action shots is much less saturated in the unaltered versions. Also, they only use the original mono audio.

Author: Spaced Ranger
Time: 5-Jan-2016 12:55 PM
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Don’t give up the thread too soon …

The Blu-ray’s original effects sequences have been rescanned in HD but have not been restored. A clean-up of those would really bring TOS back to it’s original life!

Star Trek rescanned (click to view in HD)		Star Trek restored as CG (click to view in HD)

To be fair, most of the CG were corrections and not Lucas-style re-imaginings. For example, there were only a couple of planet shots, which were re-colored, flipped, etc., and re-used over and over again, regardless of the actual “on-planet” filming. They just didn’t have the time/budget in a weekly TV series. That kind of lack was embellished in the restoration. (I wish the restoration team had even more time/budget for more “fixes” to the live action sequences, ie: “outdoor sets” skies/lighting.)

Author: joefavs
Time: 5-Jan-2016 1:46 PM
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Hmmm. Well, for now I think I’m going to pick up the blu-ray and live with the unrestored picture and mono sound, but if anyone feels like doing a cleanup and multiple audio tracks, that’s something I’d certainly be interested to see. I’d start tinkering with it myself, but that kind of restoration work is beyond me.

Author: ElectricTriangle
Time: 5-Jan-2016 6:00 PM
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Wazzles said:

I’m not entirely sure it’s seamless. The color timing of the live action shots is much less saturated in the unaltered versions. Also, they only use the original mono audio.

I thought they match color wise very well, or at least to the degree they did in the SD masters (optically composited special effects are always going to look a bit different from the live action stuff).
You can switch from the mono to the surround track with your remote if you want. (The reason they don’t show this option in the menu is because the stereo pans are based on the new shots of the Enterprise rather than the old, so it can be disconcerting. The mono sounds good.)

Star Trek: The Motion Picture DE - The Anti-DNR Fanedit
Duel (1971) - The Hybrid Cut
The Phantom of the Opera - 1925 Version Reconstruction - Rare Scores Collection - Roy Budd Score

Author: Spaced Ranger
Time: 5-Jan-2016 7:29 PM
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@ SilverWook
Wasn’t the SD on the HD-DVD also the full remastered? So one had to double-dip with the Blu-ray to get the rescanned original effects.

Look how they did it (just ignore the Klingon subtitles):

	Spacelift: Transporting Trek Into the 21st Century

Author: SilverWook
Time: 5-Jan-2016 7:57 PM
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The DVD sides were the remastered episodes only.

I don’t own the set, although it would be a nice addition to my small HD DVD collection. The hybrid flipper disks were unfortunately among the most likely rotters, at least with Universal and Warner titles.

Where were you in '77?

Author: althor1138
Time: 5-Jan-2016 8:14 PM (Edited)
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It’s been awhile since I broke out the TOS and watched it on Blu-ray but I seem to remember the original effects scenes were of pretty decent quality and blended in well with the surrounding material. I was very impressed with how they handled the whole “upgrade” situation. To be honest, I just watch the upgraded versions usually because they upgraded it with tender, loving care.

As a Star Wars fan, I dearly appreciate the fact that they were as interested, just as much as I am, in keeping the original footage available though.

Luke threw twice…maybe.

Author: Spaced Ranger
Time: 5-Jan-2016 10:59 PM
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Wow, I thought that whole rot-thing was confined to laserdiscs. So now we must double-dip the HD-DVD … for the same discs?!?

And they haven’t even dropped in value (last time I checked) (Star Trek collectors are detrimental to one’s wallet)!

And talk about restraint with improvement in updating – we went from a cheesy 1960’s “analog” chronometer (budget again) to a proper 2160’s digital chronometer, with the famous stardate (at last)!

1960’s	YouTube: Comparison The Naked Time	2160’s

Pay attention how to do this, George Lucas Jr.!

Author: SilverWook
Time: 5-Jan-2016 11:16 PM
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To their credit, Warners did an exchange program for the equivalent title on Blu Ray. No idea if Universal did the same. (I had bad discs from both.) Paramount had only begun putting out HD DVD titles when Toshiba threw in the towel.

The only real drag after the format’s demise is some Universal titles look better than the Blu Rays, (no DNR) and some Warner titles have Dolby True HD while the Blu Rays only have Dolby Digital, although it’s a 640kps track.

There’s only a handful of titles left that still haven’t had a Blu Ray release.

Where were you in '77?

Author: pittrek
Time: 6-Jan-2016 4:35 AM (Edited)
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I apologize for this disgusting piece of self-promotion but I did comparing videos for all TOS episodes, where I compared all changes between the original and CGI effects, if you want they’re here
Season 1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8YCSbxI7zs&list=PL0C8YMQolMwj1kAggu2cNCVOgSBmNU4xj
Season 2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfSVJSMPkkE&list=PL0C8YMQolMwgqZnUFYuhz6eIzJKXIoRGA
Season 3 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qzzkw-FSwc&list=PL0C8YMQolMwgCwkLX9G_2WktXyfaA_YEh

And a small note - the “original” versions on the BluRay set are actually NOT original versions (at least in some cases), and few episodes are different from their DVD versions, but I have no clue which one is the “original”, e.g. Arena https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ26yeTNvvM or By Any Other Name : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unxotSzrv3w

Author: Spaced Ranger
Time: 6-Jan-2016 11:32 AM (Edited)
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@ SilverWook

I always thought both hi-def versions were always identical. (I guess that was only with simultaneous releases early on, before HD-DVD’s shaky market position?) So now, what? We must buy old laserdiscs AND old HD-DVDs (not to mention the players … doh!) to get less remaster-tampering than in contemporary releases?

pittrek said:

I apologize for this disgusting piece of self-promotion but I did comparing videos for all TOS episodes …

You did those?!? That is so AWESOME!!


	.
	.

		You are my NEW, PERSONAL HERO!!


I love you – now I must save all those videos!!		I hate you – now I must save all those videos!!

BTW, interesting about the wrong CU of Spock on the DVD in episode “By Any Other Name”. Different from the videotapes (all releases) and the earlier TV broadcasts? Laserdisc, too?

I also noticed the odd movement in the frame-stepping and higher voice pitch, both on the Blu-ray in episode “Arena”. Could those problems be from incorrect capture of a Region B Blu-ray against a Region 1 DVD?

Author: Wazzles
Time: 6-Jan-2016 12:51 PM
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pittrek said:
And a small note - the “original” versions on the BluRay set are actually NOT original versions (at least in some cases), and few episodes are different from their DVD versions, but I have no clue which one is the “original”, e.g. Arena https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ26yeTNvvM or By Any Other Name : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unxotSzrv3w

Well in the video above they mentioned that the piece of metal was in the original plate for Arena. Perhaps it was cropped out for actual broadcast, even though it was in the negative?

Author: Chewtobacca
Time: 6-Jan-2016 7:46 PM
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Thanks for all the comparison videos, pittrek. Did you use AviSynth to make them? The comparison for TMP is almost like watching the film! 😄

Author: Spaced Ranger
Time: 6-Jan-2016 8:03 PM (Edited)
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TrekCore’s screencaps of Star Trek episode “Arena” from DVD verifies that the “act 1” opening shot is the full shot with the camera shade showing (apparently not secured too well and slipped into picture), while the end of the “teaser” is that same shot but tighter (and thus eliminating the shade from that shot):



.



Here shows the “teaser” framing from the full “act 1” shot.

That this shot was tight in one place and not in the other indicates it was an artistic edit: a pulled-back-long ending the teaser; a long-establish for act 1. The editor just missed what might have looked like odd terrain (hey! alien world!) and, even if someone did spot it, no time to go back due to weekly-episode edits.

Author: JayArgonaut
Time: 7-Jan-2016 1:08 AM
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althor1138 said:

It’s been awhile since I broke out the TOS and watched it on Blu-ray but I seem to remember the original effects scenes were of pretty decent quality and blended in well with the surrounding material. I was very impressed with how they handled the whole “upgrade” situation. To be honest, I just watch the upgraded versions usually because they upgraded it with tender, loving care.

As a Star Wars fan, I dearly appreciate the fact that they were as interested, just as much as I am, in keeping the original footage available though.

There was an interview with “Rod” Roddenberry, I think on CNN or CBS when the remastered sets were about to be released and he assured the newscaster and the viewers that unlike the situation with another well known Sci-Fi franchise, the CGI upgraded versions will always exist alongside the unaltered originals.

“Logic is the battlefield of adulthood.”

Howard Berk

Author: SilverWook
Time: 7-Jan-2016 1:29 AM
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I honestly thought that was a foreground piece of the wrecked starbase intended to keep some power lines out of the shot. How much of that would have even been visible on a 1960’s family tv set is open to debate.

Where were you in '77?

Author: FrankT
Time: 7-Jan-2016 9:00 AM
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When I got TOS on Blu-ray, I made doubly sure my version of the disks had the seamless branching. Thankfully the Full Journey box set has that, but some of the audio was missing when I was watching season 1. Turned out it was on a channel my audio set doesn’t have. At least they kept the mono track. I just hope they’ll bring back the originals on TV at some point. I know it’s unlikely, but I can dream!

Ol’ George has the GOUT, I see.

Author: pittrek
Time: 7-Jan-2016 1:54 PM
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Spaced Ranger said:

@ SilverWook

I always thought both hi-def versions were always identical. (I guess that was only with simultaneous releases early on, before HD-DVD’s shaky market position?) So now, what? We must buy old laserdiscs AND old HD-DVDs (not to mention the players … doh!) to get less remaster-tampering than in contemporary releases?

.

pittrek said:

I apologize for this disgusting piece of self-promotion but I did comparing videos for all TOS episodes …

You did those?!? That is so AWESOME!!

.

.

You are my NEW, PERSONAL HERO!!

I love you – now I must save all those videos!! I hate you – now I must save all those videos!!

.

BTW, interesting about the wrong CU of Spock on the DVD in episode “By Any Other Name”. Different from the videotapes (all releases) and the earlier TV broadcasts? Laserdisc, too?

I also noticed the odd movement in the frame-stepping and higher voice pitch, both on the Blu-ray in episode “Arena”. Could those problems be from incorrect capture of a Region B Blu-ray against a Region 1 DVD?

Not sure how the older versions look like. I have TOS only on DVD (the 2003 edition) and BluRay. My VHS tapes went to the trash bin when I bought the DVDs and I live in a country where 99% of people have no idea what a laserdisc is. And I don’t really remember when was the last time I’ve seen the “non-remastered” version on TV.

Author: pittrek
Time: 7-Jan-2016 1:58 PM
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pittrek said:

Spaced Ranger said:

@ SilverWook

I always thought both hi-def versions were always identical. (I guess that was only with simultaneous releases early on, before HD-DVD’s shaky market position?) So now, what? We must buy old laserdiscs AND old HD-DVDs (not to mention the players … doh!) to get less remaster-tampering than in contemporary releases?

.

pittrek said:

I apologize for this disgusting piece of self-promotion but I did comparing videos for all TOS episodes …

You did those?!? That is so AWESOME!!

.

.

You are my NEW, PERSONAL HERO!!

I love you – now I must save all those videos!! I hate you – now I must save all those videos!!

.

BTW, interesting about the wrong CU of Spock on the DVD in episode “By Any Other Name”. Different from the videotapes (all releases) and the earlier TV broadcasts? Laserdisc, too?

I also noticed the odd movement in the frame-stepping and higher voice pitch, both on the Blu-ray in episode “Arena”. Could those problems be from incorrect capture of a Region B Blu-ray against a Region 1 DVD?

Not sure how the older versions look like. I have TOS only on DVD (the 2003 edition) and BluRay. My VHS tapes went to the trash bin when I bought the DVDs and I live in a country where 99% of people have no idea what a laserdisc is. And I don’t really remember when was the last time I’ve seen the “non-remastered” version on TV.

Also I actually used a Region free Blu-ray and a Region 2 DVD 😃

Author: SilverWook
Time: 7-Jan-2016 4:16 PM (Edited)
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I’m not sure any version of TOS is airing on U.S. tv right now. I know TNG was running the SD versions of TNG last year when the channel was briefly unscrambled on my system. Maybe something will happen for the 50th anniversary? CBS seems to think streaming is where the money is now though.

I think the original two episode DVD’s look pretty darn good upconverted. But I grew up watching well worn syndication prints on tv. 😉

Where were you in '77?

Author: Spaced Ranger
Time: 7-Jan-2016 6:46 PM (Edited)
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pittrek said:
Also I actually used a Region free Blu-ray and a Region 2 DVD 😃

If both were sync’ed to the Region-2 DVD, that would explain the pitch change to Region-1 ears. Also, Region-free BR would be at original-(24)-fps to the DVD’s 25fps, and that would explain the BR extra-frames stutter. (As the sources are 24fps, all should be normalize to that first.)

SilverWook said:

CBS seems to think streaming is where the money is now though.

	YouTube $$

And that’s so true!
A nephew of mine has no “tapes”, no “discs”, no “files”; his “library” is all “in the cloud”. I keep warning him about property – “if you don’t have it in your hands, you don’t have it”.

[edit]
Oh … and you need one of these to keep it …