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Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire — Page 4

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Yeah, sadly the online scripts will only get you so far. Which is too bad because the scripts are out there. Locked up in a safe place no doubt, far away from the internet.

If we could get this thread back on track, it seems that the few differences of this supposed screener version of Empire had only the one visual difference (the end sequence) and a handful of audio differences. Since we have access to a large share of these audio differences from the 8mm version and the Story of the Empire Strikes Back album, and since we have a few "eye-witnesses" to what the final sequence looked like, would it be possible to do a 'virtual' earlier cut?
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Originally posted by: Sluggo
Yeah, sadly the online scripts will only get you so far. Which is too bad because the scripts are out there. Locked up in a safe place no doubt, far away from the internet.

If we could get this thread back on track, it seems that the few differences of this supposed screener version of Empire had only the one visual difference (the end sequence) and a handful of audio differences. Since we have access to a large share of these audio differences from the 8mm version and the Story of the Empire Strikes Back album, and since we have a few "eye-witnesses" to what the final sequence looked like, would it be possible to do a 'virtual' earlier cut?


Yes, this would be nice. I'd love a re-construction of the 70mm mix for ESB.
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The Bunnies ate all the missing scripts
(\ _/)
(o_O)
(_(”)(”)
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I would weally like very much to put those wabbits into my pot & cook 'em up!

_(\ /)__
\ Stew /
(_____)
~~~~~
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Originally posted by: Sluggo
Yeah, sadly the online scripts will only get you so far. Which is too bad because the scripts are out there. Locked up in a safe place no doubt, far away from the internet.

If we could get this thread back on track, it seems that the few differences of this supposed screener version of Empire had only the one visual difference (the end sequence) and a handful of audio differences. Since we have access to a large share of these audio differences from the 8mm version and the Story of the Empire Strikes Back album, and since we have a few "eye-witnesses" to what the final sequence looked like, would it be possible to do a 'virtual' earlier cut?



That is a very disappointing possibility you present about the missing scripts. The online scripts actually have gotten me a little closer to understanding this mystery, particularly the 1st. Fourth Draft. If these scripts are indeed locked up in a safe place, it would be sure nice of someone that is in possesion of these & that may likely visit this forum once in a while to possibly share them with us here in some electronic format of their choosing.

The few differences you refer to are actually from the comparisons of the two very common 1980 70mm versions of the film + the 35mm version (I never saw the 35mm cut in the theatre) & not what I like to refer to as the Advance Cut which is what I’ve been claiming to have seen. It’s too bad you are not willing to unlearn what you have learned without a signed & sealed confession from George Lucas or some of the other key production members that they haven’t been telling the entire truth all this time whatever their reasons are. I understand where you are coming from about this distrubance in the force though.

The virtual cut project that you suggest may be a good one for Marc from Seattle or Michael Matessino that wrote about the differences of the final scene. It certainly would be in line with what George has been doing with modifying the original films at his pleasure & would be very exciting to other members that enjoy the fan edits.

Number20, it is interesting to me that many fans enjoy re-constructions of the soundtrack elements of these films. I didn’t know of the sound differences sighted in the original film until I viewed the Deleted Magic. I really did enjoy the de-construction of ANH in that film. I am looking forward to the NTSC version of Jambe’s Building the Empire & will check that out as soon as that is ready.

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Originally posted by: rancher
Number20, it is interesting to me that many fans enjoy re-constructions of the soundtrack elements of these films. I didn’t know of the sound differences sighted in the original film until I viewed the Deleted Magic. I really did enjoy the de-construction of ANH in that film. I am looking forward to the NTSC version of Jambe’s Building the Empire & will check that out as soon as that is ready.



Lucasfilm put in many differences between the Mono and 35mm/70mm sound mixes, and then the 70mm mix of ESB was different from the 35mm mix. The '04 DVDs were closer to the 70mm mix, and the previous VHS releases were based on the older 35mm mix, so when people heard the differences, they complained about more changes that weren't actually changes. I think that ROTJ is the only OOT film that didn't have changes in the theatrical mixes. Personally, my dream release of SW would have the 35mm theatrical audio mix, mono mix, and 1993 remix, and for ESB-35mm theatrical, 70mm theatrical, and 1993 remix. Maybe someday...

One problem with scripts online is that it is sorta hard to tell sometimes what draft the script really is. I know that one of the scripts from ROTJ floating around the internet is labeled as being an earlier draft than it actually could be.
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and of course, there are more than a few scripts out there that are fakes.
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Here is what appears to be the 1st. 5th draft of TESB up for auction. Very expensive, it’s over $2,300.00 CAN & it is autographed by some production members.

It would be nice to get this out of the hands of collectors hoarding it to themselves especially after 27 years. I understand why they may though, if I where to fit the entire bill I would want back my investment at the very least if I were to put up for sale again. I recall a year or so ago some hardcore Genesis fans all got together, pooled & purchased the only film print of a performance of the group in 1973 from a collector that wanted some bucks. The fans also put this film into the public domain to be downloaded freely on torrent sites for the DVD format after their purchase. Since this is a preservation forum…

I did contact this seller to see if they would be willing to send me just a photocopy or the equivalent in whatever format they choose for much lower than their asking price for this draft. I’m sure they had a good laugh. It would be worth up to $200.00 - $300.00 CAN to at least to have a photocopy of this exact draft for sale to read considering I don’t really know what it is that I’m buying or if it would really be as helpful to me as I believe. However, I did see evidence of a listing of a photocopy for sale in Australia of a 1st. 5th draft for TESB, but the eBay posting is gone after clicking on the Google result. This Australian photocopy could have been a fake, but who knows?

You know my motivation for wanting a copy & just maybe there are others here that may have another reason that they may enjoy to have a copy of this. Possibly there could be a raffle of the original between yourselves or can share it amongst yourselves at different times of the year if we were to pool the purchase. Of course, we can always wait & see what turns up in the future hopefully for free.
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Interesting find.

I too have emailed the seller to ask for some more photos.

It's so easy to fake something like this. Print a script on some pre-faded paper. Use a number of different biros to copy autographs. Put a stain on the back...

One thing that does concern me is the line "FROM THE NOVEL BY GEORGE LUCAS".

This isn't something I've seen on any other Star Wars script. And as we all know, GL didn't write the novel. The novel was written my Donald F Glut and was based on the final shooting script. Perhaps the script did say this, but it just jumped out at me as wrong. Having said that there is another script claiming to be the fourth draft - here that also has the NOVEL line on it.

I could never justify paying $2000 unless I purchased it directly out of the hands of Gary Kurtz or another crew member.

I wil be keeping an eye on these, and perhaps contact the eventual winners. If there are any.

Creator of Star Wars Begins, Building Empire and Returning to Jedi
Follow me on twitter @jamieSWB. Please support me at - http://www.patreon.com/jamiebenning/

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Originally posted by: rancher
Here is what appears to be the 1st. 5th draft of TESB up for auction. Very expensive, it’s over $2,300.00 CAN & it is autographed by some production members.

Hmmm. This screams fake to me. As Jambe Davdar pointed out i doubt that the real script would have the "from the novel by.." on it . surely it would more likely have had " based on a storyline by.." instead. Another thing that popped out at me was the fact that Leigh Brackett's name has been misspelled as "Leige". Also if this was from a serious collector then why a "Buy it now" price with a best offer option and not an auction with a starting bid. Surely a serious collector would want to get the most that they could for this item, so why no auction? I could be wrong about its authenticity but i have a bad feeling about this.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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Jambe, I see that the only revision on the page given (when comparing with the 1st. 4th draft) as a sample photo is:

LUKE
(hesitates)
… to another system …not far …

Please also check this item:

184. PRODUCER'S SCRIPT FOR STAR WARS: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

Use the zoom function to look carefully at the first page for item 184. This one here also has FROM THE NOVEL BY GEORGE LUCAS. I don't believe that is it refering to that actual novelization of the film or at least what ended up being done later. It may be a reference to appease somebody else? A big wig suit? Maybe a smoke screen tactic used during filming? Can it be checked in books/articles you have to see if something was ever mentioned about this maybe?

Something about this scene may be helpful for a sample page.

A couple of minor observations only & I saw this fourth draft auction earlier as well. I am actually satisfied enough with the free copy found on the internet myself. However if this one is legit a nice complete scan of this 1st. 4th draft may be enjoyable & the next best thing for many others if they couldn’t get an original.

I've had a bad experience on eBay before & I've paid too much as well. I always have a bad feeling about buying this way, but I don't know if these scripts (the other being 4.R) will ever show up in the public domain if the fans don't take 'em away from the complusive hoarders one way or another.


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Do you have the link for the Australian auction, even if it is old, I could try to find something here.
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How do you know the ebay auction is the first fifth draft?
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Yes, the fifth draft did indeed carry the bizarre "from the novel by George Lucas", as the Annotated Screenplays even shows this.
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Sorry Laserman, the Aussie result was last week. I did try for the last hour to get it to come up again. I believe I was using these keywords to search: The Empire Strikes Back Fifth Draft photocopy Feb 79 with Google. It came up pretty much just that & also had (not an original) beside the word photocopy and then something about the starting bid 0.99 AU in the Google description. After I clicked on it I just got redirected. Sorry, didn't think you could find something out about it at that point. I wish I knew someone may have wanted to do the old carrot & on a stick search afterwards.

I was told by a collector of SW toys to maybe check "The Making of TESB" pocketbook & read the GL interviews for more info. to see about BASED ON THE NOVEL etc. I can't because I still don't have it. It may not be necessary now after zombie84's confirmation (thx), but it may be nice to know what the reason was if it is explained because the 1st. 4th draft also has it as well on the one up at eBay now.

I was also told that most of these original production scripts actually got sold off (not auctioned) starting roughly Summer-Fall 1980. The SW fan club was given first shot at them & then they appeared in small 1/8th sized page ads (bottom of page & near the back the mag.) in the popular sci-fi film magazines at the time in the U.S./Canada (not sure about the rest of the world) until the scripts got sold out. He thought that he likely saw the ad. in STARLOG magazine (Anybody have some issues from this period?) about that time & maybe others like HEAVY METAL or even a science mag. called OMNI. A few were autographed & more expensive, just like this 1st. fifth draft listed on eBay.

The typing mistake on the draft could easily be explained. It's a typing mistake. I'm guessing at this; but in 1979; if GL came up & told you to type 600 copies on a typewriter by Thrusday I'm sure a few mistakes could get by you. I doubt it was put on any mammoth computer at the time for printing as George was paranoid about security leaks.

I wonder if this is included in the package:

February 19, 1979
Correspondence from Irvin Kershner to George Lucas, regarding revisions to pages 143-160.
Source: Bouzereau: p. 123

I see on the sample page 02/19/79 is on the corner.




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Did you look in your browser history?
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Overwritten 9x DOD standard deletion & cannot undelete. Electron Microscope required.
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Originally posted by: zombie84
Yes, the fifth draft did indeed carry the bizarre "from the novel by George Lucas", as the Annotated Screenplays even shows this.


That's just something I've never noticed before. Thanks for clearing it up.

JD

Creator of Star Wars Begins, Building Empire and Returning to Jedi
Follow me on twitter @jamieSWB. Please support me at - http://www.patreon.com/jamiebenning/

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One thing about this 5th draft script that I don't like is the 20th Century Fox logo (but it does look like it was stamped on). It just doesn't feel right even though it is one of their productions. Plus, the 4th draft auction has some code on the bottom on the page meaning that's an official one (?) & the front page is in color (?).

Jambe, let me know if the seller sends any more samples as I haven't got back any reply from them yet & I don't think I will.
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Check your pm Laserman.

It looks like this wabbit got away on 21-Oct-06 21:15:58 AEST for AU $61.00. I didn't think to check the cached pages on a eBay Google result before. I don't think it was the exact same listing I said I found earlier because this one wasn't a photocopy. I think the kid that did buy it though IS making photocopies & selling them on eBay. That may explain the orphaned first listing I found last week that was very similar. The buyer is not registered anymore & doesn't have the best rep. He is likely using a different I.D. now & whatnot to sell the photocopies I'm guessing. I'm just seeing if the seller can add anything else to this other than:

Sorry mate, I sold my only copy a year ago.

It's a hit? Negative, it didn't go in. It just impacted on the surface.

I certainly sympathize with Jambe’s anger about these slime balls on eBay. It is so difficult to get decent seats to any event in the city now because of them.
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Originally posted by: Jambe Davdar
Interesting find.

Having said that there is another script claiming to be the fourth draft - here that also has the NOVEL line on it.


Winning bid: US $15.00 (not me). Anyone here?

Now that's a steal if it was a legit copy.


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The fourth draft is available online so who cares.

Here is the thing--whenever you see these scripts being sold by collectors, they are not fascimiles from the studio vault. These scripts are available online and sellers just print them off. You pay for the paper, the ink and the binding, but these are not some secret rare thing, otherwise they would sell for hundreds of dollars. The fifth draft has been available for years--Lucasfilm published it in the 1980 ESB Notebook, in the Empire Strikes Back Illustrated Screenplay, as a stand-alone script, and as part of The Annotated Screenplays. Same goes for ANH and ROTJ. The problem is that these official releases by Lucasfilm are not the true final drafts, they are the final draft edited to the film edit, so you just get what is on screen and not the unfilmed material. The only true final draft we have is for Star Wars because in the late 70's, every single draft of the script, from the 1973 treatment to the 1976 shooting script was leaked and has been circulating on the collectors circuit. Since then Lucasfilm security has been very tight, though luckily a fourth draft of ESB managed to get out, as well as a revised rough draft of ROTJ (which is missing a page or two at the end).

Its not likely that any of the unaccounted for drafts will ever be let out, and because an edited version of the final drafts have been released by Lucasfilm there is not even much demand for them. Supposedly, Leigh Brackett's first draft is available to read at an archival library of some kind, i think at a University somewhere in the southern US. I'm suspicious that this is merely an internet rumour however, and regardless the rumour is that it cannot leave the library grounds so you can't photocopy it or anything. This is the real Holy Grail of star wars scripts, the draft of ESB where Darth Vader was still a seperate character from Father Skywalker. But anyway. The only way to obtain any of the unreleased drafts is if rare personal copies from crew members are auctioned off--i.e. Gary Kurtz' auction from a while back, which i am still fuming that i happened to be broke at that time.
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Originally posted by: The Starkiller
What I find increasingly frustrating about these claims is that the person making the claim will never admit even the possibility of being wrong.


I fell into that category a few years ago when I bought the ANH Faces VHS tape. Having not seen SW in 20-odd years, I was so annoyed that Luke didn't miss the with the grappling hook, "close the blast doors" was missing, Biggs was nowhere to be found, Luke didn't look up at the fight early in the film, and Vader got away (in my mind, the film made it appear that he was killed by Han). The tape seemed like some sort of edited highlights reel. My memory of the theater was that I saw all those things, but since then I think I've accounted for every one. To wit: (a) "close the blast doors" is obvious, (b) Luke's looking up at the sky turned up on a trading card I forgot I had in a drawer, (c) Vader getting away may have been snipped in the theater for time or I just missed it, and (d) the missing grappling hook I believe was in a late night very early promotional trailer that I have tried and failed to dredge up. The Biggs scene is more puzzling, but I probably saw it or something like it somewhere else.

I was 17 years old in 1977 when I saw it in the theater (4 times in the first month after it opened), and my memory still failed me. I can only imagine what I'd be remembering if I were 7 or 9 at the time.

"Close the blast doors!"
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