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Creator of Star Wars Begins, Building Empire and Returning to Jedi
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Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire — Page 2
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Originally posted by: Darth Richard
Are you talking about the 70mm cut?
Are you talking about the 70mm cut?
I believe so. I was just searching & found this:
http://www.movie-theatre.org/canada/starwars/starwars.htm
Even the newpaper ad:
http://movie-theatre.org/canada/starwars/5edmonton.jpg
It was advertised as being presented in 70mm. Maybe it wasn't & they were ripping us off by charging us 70mm prices for a 35mm presentation. I doubt it, but who knows? All I really understood about 70mm at that time was that it likely better than normal. Also in response to zombine84's last post I didn't say that it was shown only once or twice. I think that the Paramount was the only one in the entire city that was playing the film during Empire's first run. I don't know when other theatres started showing the film. It could be that they weren't up to standard or some other reason. It played many times for many months at the Paramount exclusively. Another friend saw the same cut I did at a different time than me in June of 1980 and a few others I met later on that claimed to see it during it's 1st. run here. I don't know how many copies they had, meaning if they had another camera & setup ready to go. Maybe they had a preview copy and their official reel got damaged? Or they just didn't care which one was shown? On & on. Maybe they just had this cut I described and was the only one shown to auidences here in 1980.
It is not impossible that nobody knew that the cut they were seeing at the time was indeed different than the official/common cut. I didn’t. After it stopped playing & was re-released years later, how many people would really know the difference when they saw it again? It’s likely not many, but some of us remember it. Not many at the time were connected to the world outside of Alberta or Canada or would even bother to mention some big difference in Empire several years later to somebody else someplace else. I didn't consider posting anything about this cut until very recently. I got the new copies of the DVDs for Christmas & just was wishing to see that uncut version again after watching the this unaltered version DVD. My hopes went up when I discovered the Deleted Magic film on youtube.
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Originally posted by: zombie84
Aside from this logistical improbability, there is also the more important points that i brought up before, which is that most of these scenes were never even filmed. Like Laserman said, its the Bugs Bunny syndrome, which is why so many fans remember weird things, and whose "false memories" even agree with one another.
Regardless though, none of us can *know* if there was a different print made for 70mm that happened to be a short run print (I imagine the 70mm versions were short run), I have personally seen three different theatrical prints of ANH, so it is possible, but I'd reckon that there *was* a difference or three in the 70mm print he saw, but that some of it is false memory - but none of us can know for sure.
edit:
Actually with further searching it looks like the initial release of ESB started with the 70mm prints, this makes the possibility of a different 70mm version to the 35mm version quite likely.
and this from answers.com:
The Empire Strikes Back
The 70mm version of the film was substantially different from the 35mm version that was more widely seen.
The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a close-up of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending its arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing.
Aside from this logistical improbability, there is also the more important points that i brought up before, which is that most of these scenes were never even filmed. Like Laserman said, its the Bugs Bunny syndrome, which is why so many fans remember weird things, and whose "false memories" even agree with one another.
Regardless though, none of us can *know* if there was a different print made for 70mm that happened to be a short run print (I imagine the 70mm versions were short run), I have personally seen three different theatrical prints of ANH, so it is possible, but I'd reckon that there *was* a difference or three in the 70mm print he saw, but that some of it is false memory - but none of us can know for sure.
edit:
Actually with further searching it looks like the initial release of ESB started with the 70mm prints, this makes the possibility of a different 70mm version to the 35mm version quite likely.
"The Empire Strikes Back" opened with a modest number of initial wave engagements, reportedly 127, most of which are identified in the list below (check this Web site periodically for updates). It appears that with the exception of a few drive-in bookings, all of the first-wave engagements were in the deluxe 70mm format. Additional 70mm engagements were added during the "expansion wave" releases throughout the summer of 1980.
Also of interest to some may be that the 70mm prints of "The Empire Strikes Back" differed from the 35mm version in that some editing differences, additional shots, alternate takes, and extra dialogue can be detected through a comparison of the two versions. It is understood that when the movie was considered "finished," the elements were turned over to the lab and sound facilities so the desired 70mm print order could be prepared. The filmmakers, however, elected to "un-finish" the movie and make a few, albeit subtle, changes that, considering the expense and time involved in re-striking and and/or re-sounding 70mm prints, were reflected only in the film's 35mm prints.
Also of interest to some may be that the 70mm prints of "The Empire Strikes Back" differed from the 35mm version in that some editing differences, additional shots, alternate takes, and extra dialogue can be detected through a comparison of the two versions. It is understood that when the movie was considered "finished," the elements were turned over to the lab and sound facilities so the desired 70mm print order could be prepared. The filmmakers, however, elected to "un-finish" the movie and make a few, albeit subtle, changes that, considering the expense and time involved in re-striking and and/or re-sounding 70mm prints, were reflected only in the film's 35mm prints.
and this from answers.com:
The Empire Strikes Back
The 70mm version of the film was substantially different from the 35mm version that was more widely seen.
The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a close-up of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending its arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing.
Other interesting stuff here. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7908/lost_scenes.txt
So is there a 70mm bootleg tape out there anywhere?
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The Empire Strikes Back
The 70mm version of the film was substantially different from the 35mm version that was more widely seen.
The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a close-up of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending its arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing.
Other interesting stuff here. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7908/lost_scenes.txt
So is there a 70mm bootleg tape out there anywhere?
from the site listed:
-Empire Strikes Back
Empire Strikes Back also had an advance version that had a sequence
where a Snowspeeder crashes directly into the head of a walker. (I
wasn't sure about this, but just noticed that you already had someone
else mention this in your text...)
You mentioned the 'different, more passionate' kiss between Luke and
Leia in Empire Strikes Back... It should be noted that this was
actually a cut scene. Leia was there when this face mask was taken
off of Luke... She then talks to him for a little while, and has a
quiet passionate kiss prior to Han, Chewie, R2 and 3PO's arrival in
the room.
It should also be noted that the whole Wampa attack sequence, and this
face mask and possible scar was developed to cover up the potential
scars that Mark Hamill had received in a serious car accident he had a
few months prior to shooting. This was of serious concern to the
production, and therefore the wampa subplot was developed to insure
that Hamill could continue as Luke, even if he had visible scars on
his face after the accident.
In the ESB trailers, there is an additional shot or two of Lando
looking around as he moves UP the falcon's airlock to get Luke.
(Basically, this implies that there is an additional area that is
filled with white light just prior to the outside hatch opening. In
this sequence (starting with the added footage,) The inside airlock
opens up to a very bright room that Lando starts to look around in.
(FYI, in case I am loosing you, this is the round elevator that he
rides through to get to the top of the falcon.) Anyway, then you get
a shot (as seen in the film) of Lando's head appearing out of a hole
in the top of the falcon. His head is surrounded with light coming
from below... This implies that the bright room was sort of a
decontamination sequence (guess) before exiting the falcon.
also another cut: "The Unfinished Cut?
As with "Star Wars," the early 70mm prints of "Empire" went out unfinished.
I saw this version several times, so I know the differences quite well. Here
they are:
The 70mm version of the film was substantially different from the 35mm version that was more widely seen.
The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a close-up of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending its arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing.
Other interesting stuff here. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7908/lost_scenes.txt
So is there a 70mm bootleg tape out there anywhere?
from the site listed:
-Empire Strikes Back
Empire Strikes Back also had an advance version that had a sequence
where a Snowspeeder crashes directly into the head of a walker. (I
wasn't sure about this, but just noticed that you already had someone
else mention this in your text...)
You mentioned the 'different, more passionate' kiss between Luke and
Leia in Empire Strikes Back... It should be noted that this was
actually a cut scene. Leia was there when this face mask was taken
off of Luke... She then talks to him for a little while, and has a
quiet passionate kiss prior to Han, Chewie, R2 and 3PO's arrival in
the room.
It should also be noted that the whole Wampa attack sequence, and this
face mask and possible scar was developed to cover up the potential
scars that Mark Hamill had received in a serious car accident he had a
few months prior to shooting. This was of serious concern to the
production, and therefore the wampa subplot was developed to insure
that Hamill could continue as Luke, even if he had visible scars on
his face after the accident.
In the ESB trailers, there is an additional shot or two of Lando
looking around as he moves UP the falcon's airlock to get Luke.
(Basically, this implies that there is an additional area that is
filled with white light just prior to the outside hatch opening. In
this sequence (starting with the added footage,) The inside airlock
opens up to a very bright room that Lando starts to look around in.
(FYI, in case I am loosing you, this is the round elevator that he
rides through to get to the top of the falcon.) Anyway, then you get
a shot (as seen in the film) of Lando's head appearing out of a hole
in the top of the falcon. His head is surrounded with light coming
from below... This implies that the bright room was sort of a
decontamination sequence (guess) before exiting the falcon.
also another cut: "The Unfinished Cut?
As with "Star Wars," the early 70mm prints of "Empire" went out unfinished.
I saw this version several times, so I know the differences quite well. Here
they are:
Great find. Again, advance cut with snowspeeder crashing into walker. It must be more Jedi mind tricks, especially if someone has never seen or heard of it.
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"Also of interest to some may be that the 70mm prints of "The Empire Strikes Back" differed from the 35mm version in that some editing differences, additional shots, alternate takes, and extra dialogue can be detected through a comparison of the two versions. It is understood that when the movie was considered "finished," the elements were turned over to the lab and sound facilities so the desired 70mm print order could be prepared. The filmmakers, however, elected to "un-finish" the movie and make a few, albeit subtle, changes that, considering the expense and time involved in re-striking and and/or re-sounding 70mm prints, were reflected only in the film's 35mm prints. There is a bit of irony in all of this trivia: the majority of the public and media who saw the movie in its first month of release saw the "less complete" version."
At the time I hit a brick wall in my research, but I may soon be able to shed some more light on this issue.
I will soon investige this fully.
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Originally posted by: rancher
<snip>
I'm not too interested in what anybody that worked on the film says on these matters now as they either can't or don't care to remember accurately or have some other reason. Just produce the footage if you haven't destroyed it.
Originally posted by: Marvolo
Irvin Kershner( sp) said himself that they dropped the wampa scenes and didn't film them because the suits would not work right and the effects were to expensive and complicated. The only wampa scene ever filmed was the scene involving Luke getting attacked and draged to the cave and proceeding cave scene. So it is impossible that you saw the other scenes, because they were never filmed.
Irvin Kershner( sp) said himself that they dropped the wampa scenes and didn't film them because the suits would not work right and the effects were to expensive and complicated. The only wampa scene ever filmed was the scene involving Luke getting attacked and draged to the cave and proceeding cave scene. So it is impossible that you saw the other scenes, because they were never filmed.
<snip>
I'm not too interested in what anybody that worked on the film says on these matters now as they either can't or don't care to remember accurately or have some other reason. Just produce the footage if you haven't destroyed it.
What sort of a response is that? You ask others if they can do some research for you (or help you with your research), some guy tells you the results of his research, and you blow him off? First hand accounts from those that worked on the film are in fact pieces of the puzzle and count as evidence. That's fine if you don't think there is enough depth in Marvolo's research, but don't ask for something and then brush it aside. Plus, it's quite ironic that you say that some folks who worked on the film can't remember things accurately since it is the accuracy of your memory that has been called into question.
Look, we're all for the discovery of "new" or "lost" footage, so don't act as if everyone is against you. It's just that we've seen this before where people seem to remember things that didn't happen, so that's why the explanations of created memories are being offered.
Pink Floyd -- First in Space
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Someone asked if there was a bootleg of the ESB 70mm mix. I think its strange that there were bootlegs of Star Wars with the mono mix, but nothing for ESB. Something I would love to have someday is a copy of ESB with the 70mm audio mix as an alternative audio track, such as some have done/are working on for Star Wars.
I would love for something like this to be true and to come out. But the problem is that until it does, one is going to be sceptical.
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Originally posted by: Jambe Davdar
I will soon investige this fully.
I will soon investige this fully.
Yay!!
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
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Originally posted by: Number20
I always thought that the 70 mm cut of ESB had some audio mix differences, but no additional scenes, but this could be wrong. The 70mm mix of ESB is a bit more shrouded in mystery. As I suggested before, try watching Building Empire and see if that rings any bells. I think its on myspleen.
Someone asked if there was a bootleg of the ESB 70mm mix. I think its strange that there were bootlegs of Star Wars with the mono mix, but nothing for ESB. Something I would love to have someday is a copy of ESB with the 70mm audio mix as an alternative audio track, such as some have done/are working on for Star Wars.
I would love for something like this to be true and to come out. But the problem is that until it does, one is going to be sceptical.
I always thought that the 70 mm cut of ESB had some audio mix differences, but no additional scenes, but this could be wrong. The 70mm mix of ESB is a bit more shrouded in mystery. As I suggested before, try watching Building Empire and see if that rings any bells. I think its on myspleen.
Someone asked if there was a bootleg of the ESB 70mm mix. I think its strange that there were bootlegs of Star Wars with the mono mix, but nothing for ESB. Something I would love to have someday is a copy of ESB with the 70mm audio mix as an alternative audio track, such as some have done/are working on for Star Wars.
I would love for something like this to be true and to come out. But the problem is that until it does, one is going to be sceptical.
The bootlegs are out there. Just waiting to be dusted off, captured and crammed on the internet. Someday.
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Originally posted by: auximenies
What sort of a response is that? You ask others if they can do some research for you (or help you with your research), some guy tells you the results of his research, and you blow him off? First hand accounts from those that worked on the film are in fact pieces of the puzzle and count as evidence. That's fine if you don't think there is enough depth in Marvolo's research, but don't ask for something and then brush it aside. Plus, it's quite ironic that you say that some folks who worked on the film can't remember things accurately since it is the accuracy of your memory that has been called into question.
Look, we're all for the discovery of "new" or "lost" footage, so don't act as if everyone is against you. It's just that we've seen this before where people seem to remember things that didn't happen, so that's why the explanations of created memories are being offered.
Originally posted by: rancher
<snip>
I'm not too interested in what anybody that worked on the film says on these matters now as they either can't or don't care to remember accurately or have some other reason. Just produce the footage if you haven't destroyed it.
Originally posted by: Marvolo
Irvin Kershner( sp) said himself that they dropped the wampa scenes and didn't film them because the suits would not work right and the effects were to expensive and complicated. The only wampa scene ever filmed was the scene involving Luke getting attacked and draged to the cave and proceeding cave scene. So it is impossible that you saw the other scenes, because they were never filmed.
Irvin Kershner( sp) said himself that they dropped the wampa scenes and didn't film them because the suits would not work right and the effects were to expensive and complicated. The only wampa scene ever filmed was the scene involving Luke getting attacked and draged to the cave and proceeding cave scene. So it is impossible that you saw the other scenes, because they were never filmed.
<snip>
I'm not too interested in what anybody that worked on the film says on these matters now as they either can't or don't care to remember accurately or have some other reason. Just produce the footage if you haven't destroyed it.
What sort of a response is that? You ask others if they can do some research for you (or help you with your research), some guy tells you the results of his research, and you blow him off? First hand accounts from those that worked on the film are in fact pieces of the puzzle and count as evidence. That's fine if you don't think there is enough depth in Marvolo's research, but don't ask for something and then brush it aside. Plus, it's quite ironic that you say that some folks who worked on the film can't remember things accurately since it is the accuracy of your memory that has been called into question.
Look, we're all for the discovery of "new" or "lost" footage, so don't act as if everyone is against you. It's just that we've seen this before where people seem to remember things that didn't happen, so that's why the explanations of created memories are being offered.
I'm in agreement with you. I saw SW in 1977 and you can all include me in remembering scenes that never happened. I could have sworn I saw stuff in the original movies that never truly made it. What I came to find after all these years, is that I'm just remembering bits and pieces of cut footage that had been included in various sources, such as TOPPS Trading cards, souvenier magazines, trailers, etc. Now, I too, didn't own a lot of SW stuff back in the day with the exception of action figures, but I had enough TOPPS trading cards and magazines in my possession to build up false memories. It's quite possible this is has happened to a lot of people. As they say, a picture can be worth a 1,000 words.
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Originally posted by: auximenies
What sort of a response is that? You ask others if they can do some research for you (or help you with your research), some guy tells you the results of his research, and you blow him off? First hand accounts from those that worked on the film are in fact pieces of the puzzle and count as evidence. That's fine if you don't think there is enough depth in Marvolo's research, but don't ask for something and then brush it aside. Plus, it's quite ironic that you say that some folks who worked on the film can't remember things accurately since it is the accuracy of your memory that has been called into question. But since it did appear this has caused a major distrubance in the force I thought I may be worth hanging around for a while and just see if anybody else could find anything new.
Look, we're all for the discovery of "new" or "lost" footage, so don't act as if everyone is against you. It's just that we've seen this before where people seem to remember things that didn't happen, so that's why the explanations of created memories are being offered.
Originally posted by: rancher
<snip>
I'm not too interested in what anybody that worked on the film says on these matters now as they either can't or don't care to remember accurately or have some other reason. Just produce the footage if you haven't destroyed it.
Originally posted by: Marvolo
Irvin Kershner( sp) said himself that they dropped the wampa scenes and didn't film them because the suits would not work right and the effects were to expensive and complicated. The only wampa scene ever filmed was the scene involving Luke getting attacked and draged to the cave and proceeding cave scene. So it is impossible that you saw the other scenes, because they were never filmed.
Irvin Kershner( sp) said himself that they dropped the wampa scenes and didn't film them because the suits would not work right and the effects were to expensive and complicated. The only wampa scene ever filmed was the scene involving Luke getting attacked and draged to the cave and proceeding cave scene. So it is impossible that you saw the other scenes, because they were never filmed.
<snip>
I'm not too interested in what anybody that worked on the film says on these matters now as they either can't or don't care to remember accurately or have some other reason. Just produce the footage if you haven't destroyed it.
What sort of a response is that? You ask others if they can do some research for you (or help you with your research), some guy tells you the results of his research, and you blow him off? First hand accounts from those that worked on the film are in fact pieces of the puzzle and count as evidence. That's fine if you don't think there is enough depth in Marvolo's research, but don't ask for something and then brush it aside. Plus, it's quite ironic that you say that some folks who worked on the film can't remember things accurately since it is the accuracy of your memory that has been called into question. But since it did appear this has caused a major distrubance in the force I thought I may be worth hanging around for a while and just see if anybody else could find anything new.
Look, we're all for the discovery of "new" or "lost" footage, so don't act as if everyone is against you. It's just that we've seen this before where people seem to remember things that didn't happen, so that's why the explanations of created memories are being offered.
Hey, don't take it too personally. I wasn't as polite as I should've been & I sincerely apologize for that. I’ve heard what the director said about the footage in question on one of the old VHS tapes before & it’s not exactly the cut I’m talking about. It’s easier for you to respond to this thread just like you did, than is for me to inquire about a cut of the film I saw & have many tell me very nicely that it’s all in my head, impossible because of reasons that actually don't apply to me aside from the explanations that it wasn't filmed in the 1st. place. The post I left before hoping that some inquiry be done by the people that had the ability to find something out & just maybe someday be able to get the footage was going to be my last at least for a while.
Regarding the people involved with making Empire, your right, is it ironic about the memory issue I brought up. Sure, what they say now can count as evidence & normally shouldn’t be brushed aside. I guess I’m saying I’m not too interested what these people say unless it helps produce the cut footage. Plus, don’t tell me how to act again.
If I were going to tell you how to act, I’d say something on the lines of thanking me for letting everyone here know about a cut of the film that nobody that has replied to this thread has seen or even heard of yet and there is hope that a very different cut was plus may still be out there. Saving the best for last, the possibility that this extended version of the film being obtained one day by this fan circle. I wouldn’t do that though because that would make me a real jackass wouldn’t it?
So whatever, you didn’t like my response & I didn’t like a few others responses either. Big deal.
The only way for this to be solved is if somebody comes forward with the 70mm bootleg of the advance cut of the film that Scotty/Amazon in Chicago claims to have seen. Or if somebody has or can get access to the actual 70mm prints from 1980 particularly Edmonton’s or now maybe the ones sent Chicago or ???
I’m sorry if I offended you & your friend Marvolo. Anyways, Jambe is on it now & maybe he will be able to provide everyone with some more details.
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I have heard of people claiming that there was an additional shot or two in the 70mm version, or that a shot or two was missing. There has never been any hard confirmation of this by any kind of reliable source, and the purportedly changed shots are sometimes inconsistently reported. The more consistent ones however, are the extra long bacta tank shot. Very minor tweaks such as this. The sound mix we know had a few similarly-subtle differences--notably the line of Luke's, "you were lucky to get out there" that now is part of the SE. In fact, Lucasfilm confirms this in their "what has changed" lists (i cant remember, there might have been one or two other unique 70mm audio blips as well). The 70mm tracks are among the first mixes to be done because they use special six-track surround, with the 35mm mono/stereo mixes coming afterwards, so because of this there are always differentiations in mixing and sometimes even dialog, especially in the case of ANH. But this is just sound mixing stuff--it can be easily changed and played around with until the last day. Changing the picture, however, is a big, big deal. Personally, i find the notion of even one or two extra cuts to be total falsehoods--people thought the same thing about ANH (ie shots being reversed in edit order) but a bootleg of that has since put that to rest as being untrue. I think its just the massive 70mm format making the film seem different, personally. However, it is possible that, as the 70mm mix is being worked on, a last crucial shot or two can be added in time for the 35mm version, or cut out for that matter--this almost happened on ESB, as Gary Kurtz meticulously recollects, but it never did. He confirms that the prints are the same, because for him and Lucas, changing the film at the last minute was a huge deal, as i said.
But anyway, had you said that there was one or two shots different, i would be inclined to consider your opinion as another interesting bit of trivia to consider in our continued efforts to map every bit of fact about the star wars films. But the sheer volume of changes "remembered" by you, including ones that were never even filmed, tells me that you arent actually remembering factual events. Like i said, i remember reading pages and pages on fan mail in Star Wars Insider in the mid-90's with dozens of people from around the world who had never met claiming they had seen the Biggs footage--some said it was an obscure 70's print, some say it was an obscure 80's tv broadcast. In fact, this continues to this day. But they hadn't seen it because the footage had never, ever seen the light of day until it was dug up from the vaults and telecine'd for the 1996 Behind the Magic CD-ROM. Again, Bugs Bunny syndrome.
Now, if you want an inside account of the last-minute post production of ESB, the 70mm creation and what went out, Gary Kurtz himself will put this all to rest:
"At the very end of Empire ... we decided at the very last minute – we pretty much locked the picture in the mix and just getting ready to make 70mm prints – and we decided that there had to an extra shot at the very end, to identify this rebel fleet.
If you remember how the end works, it's before you go into the medical department, who are working on Mark's hand. It's the establishing shot of the fleet, and we had a shot already of going into the window and showing Mark inside, and we just decided that it was confusing We didn't know exactly how that was sorted out, so we wanted a long shot at the beginning, and then one at the end that shows the whole fleet when the Falcon flies off. They weren't very difficult to do, and all the ships were there ... just pile up the composites, and they were rushed through, just to get it done. Very last minute. One of them wasn't particularly good, and George said, "Oh well, maybe we should just let it go."
I said, "It's worth at least one more go through. One bad shot can ruin the whole movie, basically." Which I really believe is true, and it just wasn't very good. It was just a compositing problem, had nothing to do with the individual shot elements – I can't even remember what shot it was, now. I think making a movie wears everybody down. You have to be really careful of the decisions you make at the very end, because you can kind of throw a monkey wrench in, very easily."
--from IGN Filmforce
He tells the same story to Filmthreat.com:
"At the very end of Empire, we were fighting the deadline to get the film made in time, to get it out. Now, Empire was released only in 70mm first, in a couple of hundred cinemas. At that time with 70mm being magnetically striped for sound, we actually had to physically have people sit at the lab and run every single reel to check and make sure the soundtrack was okay. Because the magnetic coating didn't always work and it pealed off, there were dropouts, nightmares. We rejected about 25 percent of the reels, and they had to be restriped. The picture was fine, but the sound had to be restriped and then re-recorded just to get all these prints together. So we had two or three people sitting there, day and night, running reels. At the last real we hadn't even finished yet, because we were just getting in a couple of optical effects and miniatures from the Cloud City sequences. I remember we were sitting there at ILM, there was this one shot where the Millennium Falcon lands in Cloud City and it turns and lands and had some glitches in it. George said, "Well we're running out of time, I guess that's okay." And I said, "We can't use that! We've got to do that over again. Because it just doesn't look right." So, Richard Edlund agreed and we had this sort of heated discussion about whether there was enough time and whether we could get it done in time. We did do it over again, and it was much better. That was actually the first time I saw him not want to do the best he possibly could, because he was genuinely worried about the time. If we didn't meet our deadline, we were going to be in real shit. Then we decided, at the very last minute, to add an extra shot which was a real nightmare because at the very, very end we go in on the after the final battle where they escape Vader. We dissolve and we're in on this ship where the medical section is and where they're fixing Luke's hand and then we go through the final dialogue scene and Lando and Chewie leave. Well, oh, that was fine, it's just that we found that some of the people who sat through that last reel said we're not quite sure where we are at this point, because we've just gone through this sort of big confrontation thing and they escaped Vader, so we dissolved and that was out in space too. So we decided to add a long shot of the rebel fleet kind of steaming away with a dozen ships.
[ That's the very last image of the film, right? ]
No, that's not the very last image, we use it again. But, I mean this is at the beginning of that sequence. We dissolve to this long shot of the rebel fleet and then we cut to this shot where we move in on the one ship into the medical window. Then at the end, we pull out of that same window. So, we needed this shot and so ILM plans, shot the elements, composited the shot, this was before digital so it was all done optically, processed it and we had a negative for it all in about 48 hours. It was just amazing. They cut that into the print to make the 70mm prints for the last reel, just a few days before they had to be shipped so it was really tight. They did it and they did a great job, and we were really lucky too because a lot of those optical composites involved a lot of different elements. The first couple of gos, the color correction is all screwy and so we have to go back and redo it and change colors and things, so we were doing that constantly."
So, it seems there was no picture differentiations. They came close to including an earlier version of a cloud city shot and ommitting a final rebel fleet shot, but in the end all these things came through at the last moment due to the tireless work of the crew, and the prints were able to ship out in identical picture lock.
As I said, I see no reason to believe that there were any picture or editing differences in ESB. We know for sure of the many sound differences, but there has never been any surfacing of picture differences besides fans having false childhood memories.
Hope this puts it all to rest.
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As a bonus, I'm including another question/answer that briefly mentions Mike Matessino. It's from the Cut Scenes Yahoo! Group I'm a member of. This one was answered by Mike Coate from widescreenreview.com:
Q: Anyone know of any differences in the opening day versions of ESB or
RotJ?
A: Many differences, picture and sound, between 70mm and 35mm versions inn TESB. Some of the transitional wipes are different (wipe vs. straight cut, etc.)... When Luke falls to the snow after tossing the grenades into the Imperial Walker, the background Scout Walker element was recomposited for the 35mm version... A few extra shots and extra line of dialogue in final scene... Medical Center scene has a closeup of Luke in the tank in the 70mm version and a long shot of other characters watching Luke in 35mm version.... there are others... Extensively documented by Mike Matessino in FILM SCORE MONTHLY magazine (Jan/Feb 1997).
I am now trying to locate this article. If anyone can help it would be much appreciated.
Creator of Star Wars Begins, Building Empire and Returning to Jedi
Follow me on twitter @jamieSWB. Please support me at - http://www.patreon.com/jamiebenning/
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Hope this puts it all to rest.
It doesn't & shouldn't. Scott's review on Amazon does tell me one thing. He did indeed see the same or very similar cut of Empire that I did. His detail is too precise to have not to have seen it & be making up the cuts in question.
I wish you could get over this false childhood memory issue. I don't have this problem & never did. I'm not a space cadet. I seen many films that have had this same type of thing happen with them before & after within this same period. Others, including myself did notice cuts to many films & in most cases they did turn up over time. Why would Empire be any different than say Star Trek 2 or any other film that I and many others have claimed to have seen additional scenes in over the years? My 9 year old brain was working just fine at the time.
Once again, I am not your typical science fiction fan. I am a very casual fan compared to many. I never have collected any Star Wars products other than the actual films. I had exactly 2 posters and model X-Wing from the original film from a Uncle that thought it would be cool gift. These products where given to me as a present in Christmas 1979. These novelty products are just not interesting to me and I have never bothered with them at all. Nor have I knew anybody that did when I was a kid. I understand it is much more common now, but back then in Edmonton that really just wasn't many kids bag that I knew. Including space film magazines, comics, bubble gum cards, story/novels, LP records, radio shows and other specials some have seen on television etc. wasn't interested, didn't know or care. I did watch the Empire of Dreams DVD and the Deleted Magic on youtube. That's it. So you could rule out the influence of novelty products on my memory.
One could easily get the idea that during the printing of the film they were rushed to point of somebody somewhere screwing up and/or somebody did indeed send out a small number of advance copies at some point aside from the rest of the batch. There is obviously a not talked about test, advance or pre-screen print that went out to at least two theatres. One in Edmonton & maybe one in Chicago if that is where the kid saw the film.
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So, it seems there was no picture differentiations. They came close to including an earlier version of a cloud city shot and ommitting a final rebel fleet shot, but in the end all these things came through at the last moment due to the tireless work of the crew, and the prints were able to ship out in identical picture lock.
This is not true. I saw the 70mm version of ESB six times when it was shown in Seattle, audiotaped it and had heard dozens of times at home. When I saw the 35mm version I was shocked to see an extra scene of rebel spaceships that wasn't in the 70mm version. I think the Lando dialog was added too (I no longer have the tape). The 70mm went from the jump to lightspeed to one shot of the rebel spaceships zooming in on the medical ship. The 35mm has an extra scene of spaceships that was spliced in.
I remember reading in a magazine that they added this scene because the audience clapped too long after the jump to lightspeed, and people couldn't hear the dialog afterwards.
As for the other scenes, I do recall having an early bootleg that differed from what I saw in the theaters, and also differed from the video release of ESB.
Marc
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Originally posted by: Sluggo
Sweet! More conveniently lost documentation.
Sweet! More conveniently lost documentation.
Well, I'm sure that magazine article talking about the changes they made to the movie
after the premiere still exists SOMEWHERE. Probably the Cinefex issue for ESB... (which
I still do have...)
Marc
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Originally posted by: marcmartin
Well, I'm sure that magazine article talking about the changes they made to the movie
after the premiere still exists SOMEWHERE. Probably the Cinefex issue for ESB... (which
I still do have...)
Marc
Originally posted by: Sluggo
Sweet! More conveniently lost documentation.
Sweet! More conveniently lost documentation.
Well, I'm sure that magazine article talking about the changes they made to the movie
after the premiere still exists SOMEWHERE. Probably the Cinefex issue for ESB... (which
I still do have...)
Marc
That might be an actual good source, as it seems that any missing/added shots would be mostly of the FX nature. If you have the time look up that issue (i know it is a lengthy and somewhat dry read).
As for "i too remember having proof of this but i lost it long ago"--well, appreciate your effort but really its just more of the same. "I remember proof" is exactly what is being contested here, because "remember" in these types of contexts is extremely unreliable. As for other dudes on the net remembering the same thing--the Bugs Bunny experiment that Laserman posted basically shows how this is possible, as is the Biggs footage false rememberance that i also cited, plus all those who claimed that the 70mm ANH was different (a bootleg confirms it was not). The evidence just keeps stacking up against this stuff.
And while i am 100% convinced that the cut described in the original post does not exist nor ever did, i am open to the possibility that the 70mm version may have had an extra shot or two, or a couple missing shots/composites. Certainly no proof has come in favor of this, so until that happens we must take all the evidence against such a possibility as meaning that the prints were the same, but this is at least a more realistic avenue to explore, if only out of sheer curiosity. The widescreen review article might be interesting, but i have a feeling that that too might be written retrospectively from a fans perspective.
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That might be an actual good source, as it seems that any missing/added shots would be mostly of the FX nature. If you have the time look up that issue (i know it is a lengthy and somewhat dry read).
I'll check, and if I find it, I'll scan it... also I guess I better check my box of remaining
casette tapes, to see if I kept what I recorded in the theater in 1980 (who would have
thought that it would come in handy 27 years later!)
Marc
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Note that the Wikipedia entry for "Changes made from the 70mm version of ESB" lists a LOT
of changes from the 70mm version. One of them listed there that I recall seeing on a bootleg
was the part where 3PO had an extra line in the asteroids, saying "there's no where to go":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases#The_Empire_Strikes_Back
Marc
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Originally posted by: marcmartin
And while i am 100% convinced that the cut described in the original post does not exist nor ever did/q]
Note that the Wikipedia entry for "Changes made from the 70mm version of ESB" lists a LOT
of changes from the 70mm version. One of them listed there that I recall seeing on a bootleg
was the part where 3PO had an extra line in the asteroids, saying "there's no where to go":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases#The_Empire_Strikes_Back
Marc
And while i am 100% convinced that the cut described in the original post does not exist nor ever did/q]
Note that the Wikipedia entry for "Changes made from the 70mm version of ESB" lists a LOT
of changes from the 70mm version. One of them listed there that I recall seeing on a bootleg
was the part where 3PO had an extra line in the asteroids, saying "there's no where to go":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases#The_Empire_Strikes_Back
Marc
Yes, these are all consistent with what we know. Mainly audio changes, most of which appeared in the SE, as well as a few differences in wipes/dissolves versus cuts, a few less-refined FX shots, and a single missing shot of Han and Leia observing Luke in the bacta tank, which as i pointed out earlier was already an established difference--due to this ommission, the sequence focuses strictly on the robots and technology, cutting from 21B straight to the droid arm extending and then the closeup of Luke, perhaps explaining why this scene is remembered so differently. Again, this basically puts to rest this whole silly thing.
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Originally posted by: zombie84
Yes, these are all consistent with what we know. Mainly audio changes, most of which appeared in the SE, as well as a few differences in wipes/dissolves versus cuts, a few less-refined FX shots, and a single missing shot of Han and Leia observing Luke in the bacta tank, which as i pointed out earlier was already an established difference--due to this ommission, the sequence focuses strictly on the robots and technology, cutting from 21B straight to the droid arm extending and then the closeup of Luke, perhaps explaining why this scene is remembered so differently. Again, this basically puts to rest this whole silly thing.
Originally posted by: marcmartin
And while i am 100% convinced that the cut described in the original post does not exist nor ever did/q]
Note that the Wikipedia entry for "Changes made from the 70mm version of ESB" lists a LOT
of changes from the 70mm version. One of them listed there that I recall seeing on a bootleg
was the part where 3PO had an extra line in the asteroids, saying "there's no where to go":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases#The_Empire_Strikes_Back
Marc
And while i am 100% convinced that the cut described in the original post does not exist nor ever did/q]
Note that the Wikipedia entry for "Changes made from the 70mm version of ESB" lists a LOT
of changes from the 70mm version. One of them listed there that I recall seeing on a bootleg
was the part where 3PO had an extra line in the asteroids, saying "there's no where to go":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases#The_Empire_Strikes_Back
Marc
Yes, these are all consistent with what we know. Mainly audio changes, most of which appeared in the SE, as well as a few differences in wipes/dissolves versus cuts, a few less-refined FX shots, and a single missing shot of Han and Leia observing Luke in the bacta tank, which as i pointed out earlier was already an established difference--due to this ommission, the sequence focuses strictly on the robots and technology, cutting from 21B straight to the droid arm extending and then the closeup of Luke, perhaps explaining why this scene is remembered so differently. Again, this basically puts to rest this whole silly thing.
I love how your able to put this whole silly thing to rest with every post you make.
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-Mark