Info Wanted: ESB/ROTJ Audio Mix questions... — Page 4

dark_jedi said:

Darth Mallwalker said:

 

dark_jedi said:

So can anyone else please verify that the info in this post is correct? Mallwalker do you know for sure?

I don't know for sure.

Trying to be helpful for once, I have tried doing some internet research to see if there is any resource out there that could help us answer this burning question. Unfortunately, the most popular hit is for my GTF page for your Dark/Sega Special Collection Transfer Project followed by numerous OT.com links!!

I will try again with some lateral thinking and see if I can come up with anything......

dark_jedi said:

but thanks for still looking into this, it is to bad there is no website for all this audio stuff LOL.

If ever there was a webpage, it is very likely that someone from around here would be the ones doing one.

My "The Definitive - tractor beam - Close the blast doors - Blast it, Biggs/Wedge - you don't taste very good - Noooooo!!!" - Preservation Guide." thread is a sort of prelude to doing such an article.

In fact, once the dust settles on the JSC issue and there was a genuine interest as well as somewhere decent to host such an article, I would be up for compiling something from all the "proven known" information out there.

It could even be expanded to list or mention of all the current and future NTSC GOUT synced mixes that are out there....

Whilst researching I have found out something which dis-proves something that I have believed for some time.

The 1992 Pan & Scan Digital Sound ANH (5651-80) and ESB (5652-80) are actually time compressed to under two hours so are not suitable canditates for "ripping" audio from as I have stated on more than one occasion. I will try and trace back my steps and remove any such posts. If only there was a website for all this audio stuff.......

Another thing, according to the LDDB, the Special Widescreen Edition and Japanese Special Collection have Digital and Analogue tracks. Out of interest, has anyone compared how these sound side-by-side??

Yeah, an audio companion to 005's galleries would probably be a good idea. That, plus publicly presentable versions for SaveStarWars.

dark_jedi said:

russs15 said:

 

If only there was a website for all this audio stuff.......

I am pleased that you "got" my quirky English humour!!

With all the hard work going on and hard work already finished, I think the least this subject deserves is a dedicated article somewhere.

Mallwalker, I've got my copies of the SC, I'll try to get some samples of the beginning of side 5 of Jedi either tonight or tomorrow.    

Also, if the SWE has the same mix, it could be used to check/repair any side changes from the JSC.   It only has three sides and should therefore have side changes at different places.  This might take some minimal editing, though, which could go against the goal having an exact bit-perfect audio track though.

Russ, I have compared the analog tracks on the SWE version of Star Warsand they are the same as the digital tracks.  The analog track has all of the 1985 anomalies.  I'd have to compare empire and jedi, but I highly doubt they're any differences.

About the eternal question if the various audio tracks on the video releases of Empire in the eighties is the original theatrical 35mm Dolby Stereo mix, I guess there's only one way to be sure, listen to them and compare.

I know that hairy_hen, myself and others have not been able to find any differences in content between them, so I would guess the same audio mix was used on all video releases until they went back to the source material and remastered it for the Definitive Collection LD set in '93, I guess the same goes for Jedi, but which track and which LD has the best sounding one would be interesting to find out.

Edit: The early LD transfers also often lacks many frames at reel changes, I think the JSC of Empire loses more frames compared to SWE, I remember that the cut from Luke arriving to Cloud City to Han being sent to the carbon freeze was very jarring in the Pioneer SWE LD for example. Some tracks are more complete than others so there's lots of editing required.

Darth Mallwalker said:

 

Back on topic of ESB pressings, I own these:
(chronological)
1425-84 = analog only
SF148-1242 = Special Collection (JSC)
1425-85 = Pioneer Video, Inc. (PVI)
1425-84 = re-issue by Mitsubishi with diGital SOUND added (*)
1425-85 = re-issue by Technidisc

(*) It has digital sound, but might also have CX-encoding applied, which would be a mastering error. Analog tracks often use CX, but digital shouldn't. So we would need some CX decoder software, if such a thing exist.

 

Stupid question time........

Like most other Star Wars Digital Sound releases, does the Mitsubishi 1425-84 have Digital and Analogue tracks?? If so, could the CX on the box simply refer to the Analogue track and not the Digital track?

russs15 said:

Darth Mallwalker said:

 

Back on topic of ESB pressings, I own these:
(chronological)
1425-84 = analog only
SF148-1242 = Special Collection (JSC)
1425-85 = Pioneer Video, Inc. (PVI)
1425-84 = re-issue by Mitsubishi with diGital SOUND added (*)
1425-85 = re-issue by Technidisc

(*) It has digital sound, but might also have CX-encoding applied, which would be a mastering error. Analog tracks often use CX, but digital shouldn't. So we would need some CX decoder software, if such a thing exist.

 

Stupid question time........

Like most other Star Wars Digital Sound releases, does the Mitsubishi 1425-84 have Digital and Analogue tracks?? If so, could the CX on the box simply refer to the Analogue track and not the Digital track?

More than likely that is the case.  There's no need for CX on the digital track.

You skeptics want samples?
hear here

Yes, the 1425-84 reissue by Mitsubishi does contain both analog and digital tracks.
I offered captures of both in Post7 of this thread (I suppose the links are expired by now.)
They sound different, is the message I tried to convey in Post5.
SilverWook mentioned CX decoding in 6, and some time later it 'clicked' in my brain.

If a mastering engineer follows the rule book, then a diGital SOUND track will not have CX encoding applied. The CX logo on the jacket should refer to the analog track only. That's the way it's supposed to work.

But in this case I believe the masterer took the easy route, and didn't follow the rules. I believe this diGital SOUND track really does have CX applied, even though it shouldn't, according to the rules.

I hope you'll help me test that theory. I'll need help because I don't know how to force CX off with either of my players.
Unlike its digital track, I believe that disc's analog track is correctly mastered, which means a flag in the bitstream will tell the player to switch on its CX decoder circuit.
Some players will ignore the flag if you tell them, or allow you to turn CX on/off manually. I don't think my players will allow it.
If somebody can force CX off, and then capture the analog track (without passing through the CX decoder)
then I'll betcha the result would be quite similar to my ripped samples. That's the hypothesis anyway, which I cannot test.

To me the digital track sounds dynamically-challenged or squashed to hell. It's the way the CX compander algorithm works, as I understand it

To make things easier for you regarding that particular audio track, see this: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Smear-free-93/post/527636/#TopicPost527636

dark_jedi said:

OK, I am going ahead and putting the files I have in sync, 1130-85 side1 is finished and I should have 1130-85 side2 done some time this afternoon, then I need a break LOL, as I have said several times like a busted record LOL, this type of work is extremely boring and time consuming, but worth it in the end.

Dark_jedi, are you syncing up the audio to the gout before or after upsampling? I was wondering if you would be willing to share the synced audio as wave/flac files seperately (or even the raw files), or are you planning to use it for your project only.

Darth Mallwalker said:

Some players will ignore the flag if you tell them, or allow you to turn CX on/off manually. I don't think my players will allow it.

Probably a stupid question but doesn't your remote have a D/A/CX button?

Arnie.d said:

Darth Mallwalker said:

Some players will ignore the flag if you tell them, or allow you to turn CX on/off manually. I don't think my players will allow it.

Probably a stupid question but doesn't your remote have a D/A/CX button?

Darth Mallwalker said:

 

Arnie.d said:

Darth Mallwalker said:

Some players will ignore the flag if you tell them, or allow you to turn CX on/off manually. I don't think my players will allow it.

Probably a stupid question but doesn't your remote have a D/A/CX button?

Yes it has that button. When I poke that button I get these choices:
Analog --> Digital --> Analog --> Digital --> Analog --> etc...

Only those two options. There isn't any
'Analog with CX'
'Analog without CX'
or anything like that.

Keep in mind my CLD-S201 was the cheapest model during its production year.
So we don't expect it will have all the features its big brothers got.

What choices do you get with your player, using that button?

 

Hmm, on my cld-2950 I get the same options, but I remeber having turned CX off during capturing. Must have been the X9 then. 

dark_jedi said:

OK, I am going ahead and putting the files I have in sync, 1130-85 side1 is finished and I should have 1130-85 side2 done some time this afternoon, then I need a break LOL, as I have said several times like a busted record LOL, this type of work is extremely boring and time consuming, but worth it in the end.

Just wondering how that extremely boring and time consuming job is going?????

ChainsawAsh said:

So, would this be an accurate breakdown of what mixes are available on what laserdiscs?  (All listed below are NOT time compressed)

Star Wars

1985 Stereo Remix:
- 1130-85

1993 Stereo Remix:
- 0693-84 (Definitive Collection)
- 8763-85 ("Faces")

 

i have these,

along with:

------------------------

japanese collectors boxset

widescreen THX 

 

ESB 1980 Theatrical Stereo:
- 1425-84

ESB 1985 Stereo Remix:
- 1425-85

ESB 1993 Stereo Remix:
- 0693-84 (Definitive Collection)
- 8764-85 ("Faces")

 

i have all of these, along with empire in the

japanese collectors set

ROTJ 1983 Theatrical Stereo (Possibly?)
- 1478-80

ROTJ 1985 Stereo Remix (Possibly?)
- 1478-85

ROTJ 1993 Stereo Remix
- 0693-84 (Definitive Collection)
- 8765-85 ("Faces")

i have all of these also along with

========================

from the japanese collectors set

from star wars to jedi

==================

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/32747/70011-78/From-Star-Wars-to-Jedi:-The-Making-of-a-Saga-(1983)

the making of:

===========

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/26236/PILF-2079/Star-Wars:-A-New-Hope:-Making-of:-As-told-by-C-3PO-and-R2-D2-(1977)

special fx : empire strikes back

---------------------------------------

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/26237/PILF-2080/Star-Wars:-SP-FX:-The-Empire-Strikes-Back-(1980)

classic creatures

---------------------

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/26238/PILF-2081/Star-Wars:-Classic-Creatures:-Return-of-the-Jedi-(1983)

all of these have been digitized,

i haven't compared them to the bluray

versions yet.

later

-1

Can it be confirmed if there are 1985 remixes for ESB and ROTJ? I just watched the SWEs for both, and both sound like other 1980's Dolby Stereo releases.

ESB is confined mostly to the front with occasional sporadic surround usage. The dialogue alternates between muffled and strident, with the track overall feeling slightly limited. (I had to raise the volume significantly to match regular levels)

ROTJ is far better with better surround usage, better presentation, fuller sound, and better mixed dialogue.

Oddly, neither has any real sound panning as do both Raiders and Temple of Doom. Maybe then these are remixes and the original tracks have panning intact?