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Info Wanted: Best "official" color source? — Page 2

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IB Technicolor print.

 http://savestarwars.com/technicoloribscreening.html

 

http://petergaultney.smugmug.com/Movies/historic/Star-Wars-at-The-Senator/13089279_nXePV#!i=948662138&k=wuqj9

 

And Harmy Despecialized Editition V2.0(or remastered).

 

https://plus.google.com/photos/109609428403596349302/albums/5781873106061439201?banner=pwa

 

One day we will have properly restored versions of the Original Unaltered Trilogy (OUT); or 1977, 1980, 1983 Theatrical released versions (Like 4K77,4K80 and 4K83); including Prequels. So that future generations can enjoy these historic films that changed cinema forever.

Yoda: Try not, do or do not, there is no try.

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pat man said:

IB Technicolor print.

 http://savestarwars.com/technicoloribscreening.html

 

http://petergaultney.smugmug.com/Movies/historic/Star-Wars-at-The-Senator/13089279_nXePV#!i=948662138&k=wuqj9

 

And Harmy Despecialized Editition V2.0(or remastered).

 

https://plus.google.com/photos/109609428403596349302/albums/5781873106061439201?banner=pwa

 

I should have been more explicit. I meant: which VHS or LD has the most accurate colors?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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None of them. If you compare them to a print, they are all off. The SC is in the correct spectrum but the saturation is way too low and the colour is way off in some areas. The THX laserdisc releases are closer to correct saturation, but the tint is off. The bootleg tapes are also not all that close. The PAL THX ones are closer than the NTSC ones.

The only reliable source is a print, anything else and you are only matching to the telecine colourist's choices of the day.

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AntcuFaalb said:

pat man said:

IB Technicolor print.

 http://savestarwars.com/technicoloribscreening.html

 

http://petergaultney.smugmug.com/Movies/historic/Star-Wars-at-The-Senator/13089279_nXePV#!i=948662138&k=wuqj9

 

And Harmy Despecialized Editition V2.0(or remastered).

 

https://plus.google.com/photos/109609428403596349302/albums/5781873106061439201?banner=pwa

 

I should have been more explicit. I meant: which VHS or LD has the most accurate colors?

   Yea it's ok. I didn't know that's what you meant, but the links I posted may be the best we got to the original color source.  

One day we will have properly restored versions of the Original Unaltered Trilogy (OUT); or 1977, 1980, 1983 Theatrical released versions (Like 4K77,4K80 and 4K83); including Prequels. So that future generations can enjoy these historic films that changed cinema forever.

Yoda: Try not, do or do not, there is no try.

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Aren't Technicolor prints supposed to have different colors than other prints due to the dye-transfer process, so the colors aren't truly faithful to the negatives?

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 (Edited)

poita said:

None of them. If you compare them to a print, they are all off. The SC is in the correct spectrum but the saturation is way too low and the colour is way off in some areas. The THX laserdisc releases are closer to correct saturation, but the tint is off. The bootleg tapes are also not all that close. The PAL THX ones are closer than the NTSC ones.

The only reliable source is a print, anything else and you are only matching to the telecine colourist's choices of the day.

Agreed. That's also the view Mike Verta takes.

I've talked about how the PS78 bootleg transfer offers important clues to how the original '77 Eastmancolor prints looked*, but even so I understand that it is not a truly accurate representation.

Old video footage still intrigues me. We don't know how much of the color variations in the official releases was due to the telecine colorist, or how much was due to the timing of the film sources. However, when clips were shown in TV reviews and such, they were sourced from film that contained the original color timing. There's a clip of the TIE attack on the Falcon in a 1980 Siskel and Ebert episode, and it has a nice gold tinge. That's another clue, but no, it doesn't tell the whole story.

I am fully aware that you have to project an actual print under the correct conditions to see how the film actually looked. It's a pity that any surviving Eastman prints have faded.

*For example, the IB Technicolor prints have some unique color flaws, like some shots of the lightsaber duel having a blue tint. All of the bootlegs I've seen have a normal color balance in those shots, proof that even the IB prints don't provide a full picture of how the film looked in theaters in '77.

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TServo2049 said:

poita said:

None of them. If you compare them to a print, they are all off. The SC is in the correct spectrum but the saturation is way too low and the colour is way off in some areas. The THX laserdisc releases are closer to correct saturation, but the tint is off. The bootleg tapes are also not all that close. The PAL THX ones are closer than the NTSC ones.

The only reliable source is a print, anything else and you are only matching to the telecine colourist's choices of the day.

Agreed. That's also the view Mike Verta takes.

I've talked about how the PS78 bootleg transfer offers important clues to how the original '77 Eastmancolor prints looked*, but even so I understand that it is not a truly accurate representation.

Video transfers can only provide clues, you have to project an actual print under the correct conditions to see how the film actually looked. It's a pity that any surviving Eastman prints have faded.

*For example, the IB Technicolor prints have some unique color flaws, like some shots of the lightsaber duel having a blue tint. All of the bootlegs I've seen have a normal color balance in those shots, proof that even the IB prints don't provide a full picture of how the film looked in theaters in '77.

Agreed. This was an excellent and informative post. Thanks!

With that being said, I know that all of the VHS and LD transfers are horribly inaccurate, but I'm still interested in which one is the best of the worst.

Edit: Also, the biggest problem with PS78 seems to be the occasional blown-out or severely-dark shot. These, interestingly, last for the entire shot and occur when there's a big change in brightness between shots (dark->bright, bright->dark).

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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Rox64 said:

Aren't Technicolor prints supposed to have different colors than other prints due to the dye-transfer process, so the colors aren't truly faithful to the negatives?

The way I got it, the Technicolor dye-transfer process preserved the colors better than any other print process and also preserved a much wider color gamut. More colors than our monitors can display.

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frank678 said:

AntcuFaalb said:

With that being said, I know that all of the VHS and LD transfers are horribly inaccurate, but I'm still interested in which one is the best of the worst.

 

Whats your impression of whats right from your collection? Every transfer seems to have its own pros and cons in terms of filtering the colour ranges down from 35mm . I don't think anyone can pin it down 100% yet in the sense that no one has access to a mint print straight from the lab from 1977, to put side by side to the official releases.

Well, I grew up watching only the 1995 NTSC "Faces" Pan&Scan VHS collection, so my opinion might not really be worth anything in this context :-(

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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 (Edited)

I remember Mike V writing somewhere that he only rated the IB Tech print at the Senator as a C+ example of the Tech prints he'd seen. I can't remember the reasons for this but I remember the C+. [Edit: http://originaltrilogy.com/FORUM/topic.cfm/Harmys-STAR-WARS-Despecialized-Edition-HD-REMASTERED-is-now-released-If-you-find-any-mistakes-please-PM-me-Posting-in-the-thread-may-ruin-the-experience-for-someone-else/post/554783/#TopicPost554783]

The pre-anh bootleg sort of suggests to me there may even be slightly richer, slightly less pastel pallette higher up the chain from the IB Tech? Maybe that's my over active imagination however.

The Senator photos of the IB Tech print make it look like it has a 'matt finish' perhaps what Mike V meant was that other prints had more of a fresh glossy look / a liquid quality that makes it look really 3D, sort of like this=

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/1059nk3.jpg

 

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Maybe that 100% divine timing you seek doesn't exist.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:

Maybe that 100% divine timing you seek doesn't exist.

I'm pretty sure you're right. I think the chase is for something that maybe didnt exist even in 1977. :O(

 

 

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 (Edited)

My extremely crummy, recently discovered, capture of an early empire pal vhs (accidently used the lowest quality settings) VS. GOUT. To me as the Gout print has lots its sheen its swallowed up some of the original colour.

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/esnmvl.jpg

 

http://i48.tinypic.com/jzzifl.jpg

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Thanks for those, Frank!

Are they from a 2nd generation VHS? They have the lefthand curve like PS78.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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 (Edited)

Apologies these are from a ex rental vhs video of one of the first u.k. pal issues of the film. It was extremely snowy and tiny part of inside of the tape had snapped off. I managed to capture a few minutes during a test run of my extremely low grade capture device with the default medium settings before the tape killed the vcr heads (crudded them up). The capture came out pinker than it looked on the tv screen. Long story to make the point this doesnt do the tape justice. BUT you can still see there was more colour there circa the early 80s as compared to GOUT master. 

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frank678 said:

Apologies these are from a ex rental vhs video of one of the first u.k. pal issues of the film. It was extremely snowy and tiny part of inside of the tape had snapped off. I managed to capture a few minutes during a test run of my extremely low grade capture device with the default medium settings before the tape killed the vcr heads (crudded them up). The capture came out pinker than it looked on the tv screen. Long story to make the point this doesnt do the tape justice. BUT you can still see there was more colour there circa the early 80s as compared to GOUT master. I reposted because I realized I had the hue shifter on VLC so I wasnt representing how it looks properly, but either way you can see its marginally more colourful than GOUT.  

I definitely agree and thank you again for posting these. No apologies needed!

I was just interested in that lefthand curve because it mesmerizes me. The one in PS78 pissed me off, but I haven't seen it anywhere else... until now!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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I have discovered as well a few minutes of a return of the jedi tape, i will check if its got the black thing on the side. I dont know what it is either! tape? vcr? faulty tape+faulty vcr?

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frank678 said:

I have discovered as well a few minutes of a return of the jedi tape, i will check if its got the black thing on the side. I dont know what it is either! tape? vcr? faulty tape+faulty vcr?

It seems to be a weird property of 2+ generation VHS tapes.

It might result from copying a VHS to a VHS without a TBC inbetween.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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Time

Heres that early pal jedi tape vs gout. Theres not much different here. Having a fresher print going into VHS will give it that difference. But if the state of the print is pretty much the same then a VHS version is pretty uninteresting.

http://i47.tinypic.com/34xnam9.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/yi2yo.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/15oxh5x.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2nk6rz4.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/a0ufs8.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/20r7its.jpg

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 (Edited)

I deleted the 1992 vhs pal frames I posted a while back because I realised I had 'snapshot-ed' them all with a hue shift accidently on, left on. Here are two frames untouched. I reckon this one just had the edge on the GOUT master in terms of capturing a flavour of the pastel flavour of the technicolor screening stills

http://i48.tinypic.com/2uqoeaw.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2hpswvm.jpg

GOUT

http://i45.tinypic.com/f0qa9i.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/dbkwex.jpg

@Anctufaalb, I tried to push it so you can see the technicolor pastels resemblance more=

http://i49.tinypic.com/2qd8m02.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/167meqe.jpg