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Info Wanted: 4K versions vs. DEED (Despecialized Editions) - which is better and why?

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4K77 and 4K83 have despecialized 2.7/2.5 beat, for now.

i prefer the DNR version of 4K77 and hope there’ll be a similar release of 4K83 if someone else has the a lossless version to create it with.

i think the 1080p despecialized edition should be free of SD or upscaled sources. that and the most dynamic color grade, and appropriate brightness/contrast for home viewing. (i really like neverar’s technicolor regrade of ANH) i’d like them to look as close to what a proper home video release for truly classic films should look.

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I believe Harmy already stated after the release of 4K77 that his projects will now focus more on approximating what a respectful Blu-ray release would have looked like, rather than what a film print would have looked like.

For example, film prints have the occasional damage from an upstream source like an interpositive (the so-called Tantive IV “burn marks”). They have reel change cue marks, they have gate weave, they have different contrast and grain characteristics from the optical duplication process, etc. So even a very clean theatrical print (such as 4k83) will have these things. But your well-regarded high-end bottomless-studio-funding no-holds-barred Blu-ray restoration from camera negatives (Lawrence of Arabia or My Fair Lady) will not.

Harmy had until now been incorporating a little of both worlds (gate weave, remaking damage, etc), and if I understand his intention correctly, he means to make the DeEd’s more like the latter cases – more of what you’d see on a quality Blu-ray, less of what you’d see in a theatre. So I’d expect his goals now look more like: More detail than the theatrical release (well, what you can manage from the crappy 2011 Blu-rays at least), rock solid image stability, extremely clean (but not degrained) image. Things that you wouldn’t actually want from a theatrical preservation because theatrical prints weren’t like that.

For that reason, I expect at least in the long term I’ll prefer Harmy’s versions, because what I’m looking for is a respectful Blu-ray release, not really a theatrical preservation. Others will prefer the 4KXX series. I doubt either will ever be “best” because – at least looking forward – they’ve got different goals.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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So my question is, colorwise, is 4k83’s colors kinda “off” because of what they need to do for theaters, or are the DEED (and blu-ray) colors kinda like, artificially sweetened to look more like modern movies? I also suspect I’ll prefer the despecialized in the long run, and probably prefer it to 4K83 based on my initial look, but 4k77 DNR looks amazing

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I’d say 4K83’s colors (ignoring contrast/black levels for now) aren’t “off” at all, they just seem that way because we’ve all gotten used to a certain “look” for ROTJ through all the home video releases.

a trolling bantha

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I really love 4K77 and 4K83’s colors. They might not be the ‘best’, but they really tickle my fancy.

girl

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 (Edited)

4K83’s colors are only off in that they are clearly from a faded source (many highlights have lost color and are just pink). Otherwise it’s hard to say if the color correction is the best or worst. I personally prefer the more blue/less magenta look of the LPP scans (not like the excessive blue of the SW LPP scan), so I’m rendering my own ‘correction’ right now.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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There’s nothing faded about the print used for Return of the Jedi 4K. It is an answer print
that was 1 generation off from the negative, and has rarely ever been projected.

From the source:

99.9% of all frames used in this project are sourced from one original 1983 35mm
Eastman print. The remaining 175 frames were sourced from an alternate 35mm print.
All frames were scanned, cleaned, stabilized, and color corrected in 4k (anamorphic)
from 35mm prints. The primary print used is NOT a release print but a special screening
print struck directly from the original film negative in 1983. It is presented with
it’s original film grain intact which is two generations less than what a theatrical
release print would have and only one generation from the original negative.

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deathstar1138 said:

There’s nothing faded about the print used for Return of the Jedi 4K. It is an answer print
that was 1 generation off from the negative, and has rarely ever been projected.

From the source:

99.9% of all frames used in this project are sourced from one original 1983 35mm
Eastman print. The remaining 175 frames were sourced from an alternate 35mm print.
All frames were scanned, cleaned, stabilized, and color corrected in 4k (anamorphic)
from 35mm prints. The primary print used is NOT a release print but a special screening
print struck directly from the original film negative in 1983. It is presented with
it’s original film grain intact which is two generations less than what a theatrical
release print would have and only one generation from the original negative.

It’s an Eastman Kodak print that was red-faded before correction. Raw frames were posted on the other forum. Being a clean screening print doesn’t have anything to do with color fade. Oft-projected theatrical prints are more commonly unfaded because of the LPP stock.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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There is a difference between a tint and a fade.

The LPP scans we had all have a blue tint to them.

This scan was different.

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The most I know is that both the DEED and the 4Ks both use a technicolour print.

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deathstar1138 said:

There is a difference between a tint and a fade.

The LPP scans we had all have a blue tint to them.

This scan was different.

No, I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. The 4K83 print is red-faded because it is Eastman Kodak film stock. The physical film image on the print looks entirely red. Not brick-red, the fade isn’t that bad. But this happens to all Eastman prints because Eastman Kodak prints aren’t fade resistant.

The LPP scans are (to my knowledge) unfaded prints, as is the nature of most properly stored LPP film stock prints (given the namesake of the type of film, “Low-fade Positive Print”).

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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LordZerome1080 said:

The most I know is that both the DEED and the 4Ks both use a technicolour print.

That’s only for Star Wars.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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Yes, the 4K83 print was faded to a dull red. The colors weren’t gone for good, they were able to be brought back without too much trouble, but it’s hard to say exactly what they looked like when it was new. The best way to get Jedi’s colors would probably be to take an unfaded LPP version, somewhat reduce the excessive blue the LPP’s all seem to have, and then make the 4K83 print look like that.

Regardless, the 4K83 colors do look nice the way they are, and I suspect that my suggested method would probably yield a similar result, minus any remaining issues caused by fading. Jedi seems to have been a rather blue film overall; probably not as much as the exaggerated LPP’s, but still blue nonetheless. Some people have complained about the leaves on Endor not being green enough and things like that, but honestly I think that’s just how it was. It just takes a little getting used to. Even with a blue tint, it’s still not monochromatically dull the way the 2004/2011 version tends to be in many scenes, and it is entirely lacking that version’s overly pumped up reds.

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I don’t see how that could be read as sincere. I’m not trying to “get back at you” but I am trying to get you to stop posting useless crap every five minutes so my screen can stop looking like this:

Note that while this is a screenshot from last night, it looks exactly the same right now, and many replies by other members have been posted in each section between then and now.

It’s entirely possible to read a thread without posting in it, especially if you don’t actually have anything to add. Try it sometime.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

I don’t see how that could be read as sincere. I’m not trying to “get back at you” but I am trying to get you to stop posting useless crap every five minutes so my screen can stop looking like this:

Note that while this is a screenshot from last night, it looks exactly the same right now, and many replies by other members have been posted in each section between then and now.

It’s entirely possible to read a thread without posting in it, especially if you don’t actually have anything to add. Try it sometime.

This could have easily been in a pm. Guess I can’t please everyone

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While I stand by everything I said, I just realized this is your thread and not the GOUT sync thread like I thought it was, so my apologies for saying it in here.

a trolling bantha