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Info: Terminator 2 - in search of the theatrical sound mix... — Page 7

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Last Week I got the japanese DVD with the Full Bit Rate DTS Track.

Compared to the Dolby Surround Track on that Disc it sounds more... I cannot describe it, but to get some kind of blowing away sound with the Dolby surround I have to tune my Receiver up... while I do not have to do this with the DTS track.

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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 (Edited)

That sounds like Dialog Normalization at work.

Because of it, the whole Dolby track will be turned down in the receiver by a certain amount (most likely 4 dB), and it makes it seem less powerful than it actually is.  The speech itself will be perfectly audible in both cases, so we don't notice during times when not much is going on, but since the peaks in the action scenes are noticeably lower, this will deceive the listener into thinking that it is less good.  Also, due to the Fletcher-Munson effect, our ears suck at hearing bass at low volumes, so we think one version is mixed with less bass, while in reality the actual amount may well be the same.

Unfortunately, DialNorm cannot be defeated by the end user, so these sorts of volume discrepancies during playback are unavoidable.  Combine that with our natural tendency to believe that louder is better, and we can convince ourselves of all kinds of things.  If you have a receiver that specifies how much DialNorm offset is in the track (I have a new Marantz that does this), that can help with making a more accurate comparison.  This can at least help make it possible to distinguish how much of what you're hearing is due to the mix itself and how much is just because of the playback level being turned down.

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hairy_hen said:

That sounds like Dialog Normalization at work.

Because of it, the whole Dolby track will be turned down in the receiver by a certain amount (most likely 4 dB), and it makes it seem less powerful than it actually is.  The speech itself will be perfectly audible in both cases, so we don't notice during times when not much is going on, but since the peaks in the action scenes are noticeably lower, this will deceive the listener into thinking that it is less good.  Also, due to the Fletcher-Munson effect, our ears suck at hearing bass at low volumes, so we think one version is mixed with less bass, while in reality the actual amount may well be the same.

Unfortunately, DialNorm cannot be defeated by the end user, so these sorts of volume discrepancies during playback are unavoidable.  Combine that with our natural tendency to believe that louder is better, and we can convince ourselves of all kinds of things.  If you have a receiver that specifies how much DialNorm offset is in the track (I have a new Marantz that does this), that can help with making a more accurate comparison.  This can at least help make it possible to distinguish how much of what you're hearing is due to the mix itself and how much is just because of the playback level being turned down.

 Does a free and small software read the DialNorm Value?

Is there any noob way and easy software to compare the different channels? I don't even find something that could decode the dts track to show it like a wavestream.

If you don't have the dts track yet, and want it to analyse, give me a pm, at least it is easy to demux the DVD into dts file.

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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Audacity is able to edit dts files, and show them as wave forms.

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nirbateman said:

Audacity is able to edit dts files, and show them as wave forms.

 Is there a plug in needed? because my Version says the File is unrecognized format...

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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Danfun128 said:

ffmpeg for audacity is what you need

Windows: http://lame.buanzo.org/#lamewindl

Mac: http://lame.buanzo.org/#lameosxdl

Also, I know it's the wrong franchise, but

Banners that look like BIG GREEN DOWNLOAD ARROWS are usually MALWARE.

"Let that child alone" *rimshot*

 Thanks. Got it. Now I have to figure out how I use, what audacity shows mehr.  :) to Bad I cannot load the dts and the ac3 at the same time Info audacity. My PC has to less free disc space.

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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Danfun128 said:

Also, I know it's the wrong franchise, but

Banners that look like BIG GREEN DOWNLOAD ARROWS are usually MALWARE.

"Let that child alone" *rimshot*

 I...see what you did there.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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I’m also in search of just about any T2 sound mixes I can get my hands on, but for a slightly different: I’m trying to mix the music from the multi-channel audio to create a complete score to the film with as little SFX as possible. I’m well aware that some people here don’t like lurkers popping up asking for stuff, but if anyone is able to provide me with any of the following:

  • The original 5.1 CDS mix
  • German DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1
  • French: DTS-HD HR 5.1

It’s be greatly appreciated… I assume the only one people here would have readily available is the CDS mix, but even just that would be a big help to me. Thanks.

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Can anyone tell me which mix would be best to try to extract the dialogue with as little music and sound effects as possible? I need it for an edit I’m doing where I’ll be pretty much completely re-doing all the music and sound effects. Thanks!!

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TheSkeletonMan939 said:

if anyone is able to provide me with any of the following:

  • German DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1
  • French: DTS-HD HR 5.1

I have the German HD DVD and French BD. If you still want those tracks, bug me via PM and I might be willing to go digging through the tote they’re stored in.

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Got a chance this past year to see a special screening of T2 in 70mm mag. The sound on it was a revelation. Content wise, definitely the same as the AC3 LaserDisc/DVD. It’s really hard to describe the quality because mag just sounds so unique. I have personally never heard the movie sound that good. I think if you have a good sound system and do some good tweaking, you can get those two home mixes sounding pretty darn close to the mag.

As for image, the THX LaserDisc was pretty faithful to the look of the print to my eyes color wise, but the digital enhancement and grain reduction was something I always felt ruined T2 at home. Seeing a print confirmed this to me. The Blu-ray, in all its iterations, is a joke.

"Alright twinkle-toes, what's your exit strategy?"

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I just stumbled over an Theatrical Cut Terminator 2 DVD, with an someway odd sounding italian 2.0 Sound mix.
Maybe it is just me, and my ears, but the Audio seems in some spots different compared to other tracks. And no, it is not the italian language, that seems strange to me 😃

I try to grab an example scene, maybe someone here who has better equipement and experience could check, if it is just the audio quality, or is the mix a bit different.

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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JayArgonaut said:

@Mike… C4 broadcast the theatrical cut earlier this year, I don’t know if you caught it, if so, what was the sound mix?

I didn’t, I only pop true lies on if it’s on TV to see the master used

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Has anyone compared the latest Lionsgate blu-ray transfer? (Studio Canal+ here in Canada) Apparently they’ve managed to release it with a minimal amount of DNR so it looks to be an improvement. I considered buying this version but didn’t want to buy it yet again on blu-ray with the T2 3D having been announced for release this year. I’m hoping for a new 4K transfer along with the original theatrical mix but I doubt we’ll see the latter.


**😮ver&out:
**mumbles

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mumbles_ said:

Has anyone compared the latest Lionsgate blu-ray transfer? (Studio Canal+ here in Canada) Apparently they’ve managed to release it with a minimal amount of DNR so it looks to be an improvement. I considered buying this version but didn’t want to buy it yet again on blu-ray with the T2 3D having been announced for release this year. I’m hoping for a new 4K transfer along with the original theatrical mix but I doubt we’ll see the latter.

It’s the same master comparable to the UK disc

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I’d like to revive this thread as at least for me, this whole Terminator-2-CDS-mix-or-not-thing still hasn’t been fully examined, let alone of an official confirmation which we’ll probably wait for forever.

So I went through this thread again and also some others and the following points are still unanswered for me.

Let’s start with probably the most tricky one as playback devices are even rarer than the tapes -

  1. The D-Theater release - has anyone had a chance yet to check out which mix had been used for this one back in the days?

  2. So there seems to be at least some kind of consensus now that the AC3 data on the first Artisan/Live US DVD is in fact not the only source for the allegded CDS mix, but also available in form of the DTS data carried by some Japanese DVD.

In that regard …

MrBrown said:

Maybe I have the Japanese PIBF-92119 DVD with the Full Rate DTS Track here next Month.

Are you sure about that catalog number? Because I’ve “only” found the two so far which is confusing enough actually to have again two different releases with DTS included apparently:

PIBF-91219 and PIBF1219.

Besides from that - again - if that is true, then the “always been right” user DiscLord must have been wrong back then when he stated “For example, the original T2 DVD theatrical cut used the 5.1 mix made for the Kodak/ORC CDS (Cinema Digital Sound) system - no other DVD and no LaserDisc ever used that mix.” in this thread.

If I am not mistaken though, Gary started the remixing work in 2001 for the Ultimate Edition of the DVD so any former ones including LaserDiscs would have been released too early to carry any altered mix of the original?

Which leads to point

  1. Does the US LaserDisc with AC3 LD68952-2DD carry the CDS mix now or not?

The mentioning of “remastered” is a bit irritating, although “remastered” doesn’t necessarily mean “remixed”. Maybe the term rather tries to emphasize on the fact that it is in 5.1 now in contrast to the former Dolby Stereo releases and thus “remastered”.

  1. How many 5.1 mixes are known for Terminator 2? To my knowledge only the 2 of Gary Rydstrom before and after he revised his own work, but on the other hand, there are tons of releases and sometimes customized versions assumingly done by the releasing studio itself, like it happened with a the “platinum edition” DVD of Se7en if I remember correctly.

Sooner or later, I’ll figure it out on my own (yet have to get a D-Theater compatible D-VHS player, the LD and one or two of the Japanese DVDs with DTS) but I’d like to keep the discussion going and maybe someone has been “already” able to compare all these versions.

Cheers!

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little-endian said:

MrBrown said:

Maybe I have the Japanese PIBF-92119 DVD with the Full Rate DTS Track here next Month.

Are you sure about that catalog number? Because I’ve “only” found the two so far which is confusing enough actually to have again two different releases with DTS included apparently:

PIBF-91219 and PIBF1219.

Besides from that - again - if that is true, then the “always been right” user DiscLord must have been wrong back then when he stated “For example, the original T2 DVD theatrical cut used the 5.1 mix made for the Kodak/ORC CDS (Cinema Digital Sound) system - no other DVD and no LaserDisc ever used that mix.” in this thread.

At5 least I am sure the mentioned DVD (PIBF-91219) has a full bitrate DTS Track. It is possible thet the other release MAY be the same disc, just different Cover and no sleeve. But That I cannot tell. I only have the one with the sleeve.

If it is the CDS mix, I am not really able to confirm, becaus eI don’t have a true authentic CDS mix to compare with.
But someone stated that the big difference between the old mix and the newer mix is in the beginning, when in the war some resitance men got killed in the original mix there were musik, percussions to be heard.
While they [the percussions] are missed on every newer DVD release and also on most of the BluRay releases they were spotted on the mentioned japanese Full bitrate DTS, first US DVD release (Dolby), and also on a french HD-DVD and DVD and BD release, prior the Special Edition was seamless branched integrated on newer releases, and the audio mix seemed to be unified to the one without percussions on that scene.

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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Many thanks for replying on that somewhat dated topic, MrBrown.

So your introduced “PIBF-92119” was a typo then and doesn’t exist, correct?

In terms of the two Japanese DTS releases being the same or not, guess there’s once again only one way to find out …

Luckily they are not expensive, especially if one is in Japan anyway with thus moderate shipping costs. 😉

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little-endian said:

Many thanks for replying on that somewhat dated topic, MrBrown.

So your introduced “PIBF-92119” was a typo then and doesn’t exist, correct?

In terms of the two Japanese DTS releases being the same or not, guess there’s once again only one way to find out …

Luckily they are not expensive, especially if one is in Japan anyway with thus moderate shipping costs. 😉

Yeah… I made a typo. 😃

Well. I have enough Terminator 2 DVDs at the moment. But if you go to buy the PIBF-1219, go on, I won’t hold you back. 😄

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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Is anyone in possession of the Japanese DTS track and could share it with me?

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 (Edited)

I have laid hands on the T2 Fullrate DTS track based on the CDS theatrical mix and am synching it to the theatrical edition of the 2015 BluRay right now (as it is actually the last release with almost no digital filtering / DNR, and no revisionist CGI).

Oddly, it doesn’t sync with it (sometimes the asynchronity is forwards, sometimes backwards). I realigned the parts as well I could. Will test it some more and then make a DTS-HDMA track out of it.

Also, I got hands on the German theatrical LD PCM stereo track (which I am also synching to the 2015 Blu now) based on the same CDS mix.

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The AC3 track of the first Live/Artisan US-DVD can’t be easily synchronized to the recent BD’s video master either so yet another hint that the DTS audio of these obscure Japanese releases might be in fact based on the same mix. So the issues getting it aligned are to be expected. Maybe you can save yourself some trouble by contacting Jonno who created the custom AC3 file back then. In theory, the same treatment should be successful with the DTS source.

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Nah, I’m good. Work is almost finished now. 😃