Info: Terminator 2 - in search of the theatrical sound mix... — Page 6

Tyler,

About the first 2 pictures you link to .....

This picture is coming from the video of the trailer available for "Terminator 2: Judgment Day", at least this is what the submitter specified.

As for the 2nd 2 pics ....

The submitter mentionned that this picture comes from the official trailer of "Terminator 2: Judgment Day".

Ugh, should've read the fine print first, lol.

I'm honestly wondering if there is any version available that doesn't have the blue tint to it.

TylerDurden389 said:

Ugh, should've read the fine print first, lol.

I'm honestly wondering if there is any version available that doesn't have the blue tint to it.

 I saw this film in the theater but was too young to remember things like color grading and unless you've got a film print ready to spool up right now you won't see the real deal. On home media I've always remembered this movie looking very cool in color with a blue tint. If you are wondering about why the trailer colors aren't as blue that is because it was just promo material before the film colors were finally graded. If you'll also notice the soundtrack was more punchy and explosive in the trailer than it is in the film. Sadly, that was all just done for promo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eajuMYNYtuY

I saw T2 last september in 35 mm : the print I saw was not blue the way it is on video. It was tealer with a touch of purple. It looked more like this:

http://www.heberger-image.fr/data/images/97099_Terminator_2_version_cin_ma_talonnage_customis_1080p_Blu_ray_DTS_HDHR_DTS_VF.mkv_snapshot_00.06.46_2015.05.20_15.26.13_.jpg

And I was astonished to notice that there was basically not even a bit of orange in this shot in the steel factory. It was all yellow:

http://www.heberger-image.fr/data/images/69367_Terminator_2_DC_1080p_Blu_ray_REMUX_DTS_HDMA_DTS_HDHR_DTS_MULTi.mkv_snapshot_02.15.00_2015.05.20_15.23.54_.jpg

kaosjm said: If you'll also notice the soundtrack was more punchy and explosive in the trailer than it is in the film. Sadly, that was all just done for promo.

 I LOVE the sound effects in the trailer. I wish they had kept them. It definitely is more "explosive" and IMo fits more in line with the first movie. Of course, Cameron's idea was to eventually do the opposite with the 5.1 Remix of part 1 :-(

TylerDurden389 said:

kaosjm said: If you'll also notice the soundtrack was more punchy and explosive in the trailer than it is in the film. Sadly, that was all just done for promo.

 I LOVE the sound effects in the trailer. I wish they had kept them. It definitely is more "explosive" and IMo fits more in line with the first movie. Of course, Cameron's idea was to eventually do the opposite with the 5.1 Remix of part 1 :-(

 Part of me wants to believe there is some release or bootleg out there that did have that soundtrack but it would have been known about by now.

kaosjm said:

TylerDurden389 said:

kaosjm said: If you'll also notice the soundtrack was more punchy and explosive in the trailer than it is in the film. Sadly, that was all just done for promo.

 I LOVE the sound effects in the trailer. I wish they had kept them. It definitely is more "explosive" and IMo fits more in line with the first movie. Of course, Cameron's idea was to eventually do the opposite with the 5.1 Remix of part 1 :-(

 Part of me wants to believe there is some release or bootleg out there that did have that soundtrack but it would have been known about by now.

 I doubt it. But there's always hope. Someday someone may do a fan edit of T2 that makes it looks, sound, and overall feel like a sequel to part 1. Using some vhs video filters, old stock sound effects, and a new synth heavy score ;)

Not the soundtrack,  but it would appear the new Lionsgate release is not a repackage and has less/no DNR 

Hi guys. I just ordered the 1997 R1 DVD, seemed to be the easiest way to listen to the CDS mix, a question to those that have heard it, how is the dialogue mix volume? I have the skynet edition blu and while it does sound amazing, sometimes the dialogue sounds like it's just mixed a little too low.

Nickeleye7 said:

On the Terminator 2 Skynet Edition forum on blu-ray.com someone said they had a dvd that included the CDS Mix in full bitrate DTS.  From some searching it seems to be the R2 Japan-Geneon Special Edition.

http://www.dvdcompare.net/comparisons/film.php?fid=160#10

The DVD is unfortunately out of print and I can't find a rip of this specific DVD anywhere.  I messaged the guy on the forum if he would be willing to share but he won't respond.  The DVD looks like this and the picture he posted was of this same DVD.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/M7oAAMXQd75SJNaR/$T2eC16F,!ykFIenyQSh+BSJN,RONKQ~~60_57.JPG

Anyone have any knowledge of this disc and or have a copy or know of how to obtain this CDS Mix in DTS?  From what I gather it would be one of the best if not the best option for the CDS Mix rather than the AC3.

I just bought that R2 Japanese DVD release with FullRate DTS in order to sync the track to the 2015 Blu-ray. And off course for any future 2k/4k releases.

Is there any specific scene where I can find out if it is the CDS mix?

That would be much easier for me to confirm if it is really the CDS track on that disc. Thanks for any help...

TFAN said:

I just bought that R2 Japanese DVD release with FullRate DTS in order to sync the track to the 2015 Blu-ray. And off course for any future 2k/4k releases.

Is there any specific scene where I can find out if it is the CDS mix?

That would be much easier for me to confirm if it is really the CDS track on that disc. Thanks for any help...

Would you share that track?

Sure, I think I will get in the next 7-9 days. But sometimes delivery from Japan can be longer as aspected.

But first thing that would be great to know is: Is it really the CDS mix?

The only guy who said that was on blu-ray.com forum...

TFAN said:

Is there any specific scene where I can find out if it is the CDS mix?

Of course I would give you the time codes in question in addition, but unfortunately, I can't check them myself right now since currently in Japan with my LaserDisc-collection growing and growing (and becoming dangerously heavy to carry back home).

When it comes to compare the mix from the first US-DVD (the "allegedly using the CDS source" - one) with the one from newer releases, for me it's most easily distinguishable during the following scenes:

1. The famous scene where the T-800 and the T-1000 meet for the first time in the hallway leading to the carpark: When the T-800 cocking his shotgun while stamping on the roses in slow motion, the reloading sound on the remix has way more echo on the surround channels whereas on the "so-called CDS-mix" the sound rather comes from the front only, which is more typical for the usual front-prioritized mixes in the cinema for me. However, since I never watched it there, it's actually a wild guess.

2. When Sarah is fiddling with the lock trying to escape from the hospital, the score on the old DVD mix sounds more like "double stereo" on the front and backs, with way louder surround channels by comparison, however in a very nice way. Someone else here called it "holographic", which might be a good term to describe it. This, by the way, is true for the entire score during the movie. On the old mix, the surrounds seem to be constantly used for the score as well whereas on the remix, it's quiter on the back channels and quite different.

3. Another good moment is when the T-1000 first enters the hallway of the hospital. The score "key sound" for me sounds WAY better on the old "CDS" mix.

All in all it's a matter of preference - I prefer the old one for sure although I have to say if the old mix is really what was shown in the cinema in the new CDS audio format at that time, I would have expected more bass, especially during explosions which is somewhat a bit disappointing on every release I know so far.

On the other hand, the sound design of T2 is a very nice example of highly skilled and precise mixing (and mastering which nowadays seems to be the last stage to perfectly screw things up) with a mid and high-end frequency range almost "glasscutting" with a wide dynamic range. Movies like Pacific Rim might offer more and deeper bass but with an aweful low dynamic range - everything is just loud from the beginning till the end (which doesn't prevent reviewers from praising exactly those kind of mixes just because the DTS-HD MA LED lit up on their AVR while watching, tsss).

Hope that helps you.

Thank you very much for your information.

When the disc arrives I will do a comparison between the different mixes and in case if it is the CDS mix I will sync it to the 2015 Blu-ray.

I wonder if any CDS prints of T2 still exist out there. And if there are any CDS decoders out there either. (Since CDS used the soundtrack area, there were CDS prints and Dolby Stereo prints. I'd imagine most prints out there aren't CDS...)

They dropped out like mad in the 90's now I would think it would be a miracle to get a working track 

I can't believe this...

I ordered PIBF-91219, but I got PIBF-1323...

It is also from Pioneer and it has NOT a Full Rate DTS Track. I will try to upload it and maybe someone can confirm that it is the CDS Mix.

@TFAN

Would be nice if you could share the DTS track which is at least easy to retrieve by demuxing the VOB files after all. However I assume it will be the remix. Neither would I worry too much about "half rate" vs. "full rate" since AC3 at just 320 kBit/s like in the cinema not too long ago can already sound damn good.

As far as I have read here and other forums, the only known sources for the older mix seem to be the Live/Artisan US-DVD and some AC3-LaserDisc, probably even sharing the same data as both have 384 kBit/s.

Interestingly though, LDDB only lists three AC3 versions on LD and one of them

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/21959/LD68952-2DD/Terminator-2:-Judgment-Day

has an rather discouraging comment:

"This is a remastered edition of the 1991, 139-minute theatrical release with a remastered Dolby Digital AC-3 soundtrack."

For all of us, "Fight Club" isn't expensive enough to have on LD, there is the anamorphic "squeezed" version of T2 as well:

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00141/PILF-2555/Terminator-2:-Judgment-Day

Maybe instead of buying the disc, we should "rent" it and just rip the AC3 data for the sake of comparison. ;)

Furthermore, I'll send you a PM.

Edit: Just read through this thread again and actually the AC3-LaserDisc, which I linked to is the same, "Stamper" already mentioned, saying it features the CDS-mix as well.

However, isn't the statement at lddb.com a contradiction then? Why is the CDS source considered to be remastered? 

Does anyone have the LD68952-2DD in possession and can confirm this? 

On the previous page Kaosjm was able to rip the full bitrate DTS track from the PIBF-91219 release.  This has been stated as a CDS track but is still in question because we can't get confirmation.  I've listened to this DTS track and the confirmed AC3 CDS track from the first DVD and can't make a decision.  They do sound the same, and to me the CDS track sounds very similar to any of the other tracks.  It's too hard to tell without someone very knowledgeable on the subject. 

I even contacted hairy_hen who also from the previous page seems to be the guy who can figure this out for us.  Though unfortunately there has been no reply for quite some time.

I've been having computer problems on my main rig where I have the file and it will probably be some time before I get that up and running again.  Kaosjm might be able to provide the DTS file again to anyone interested if you PM him.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but at least during the scenes I already stated, it should actually pretty easy to distinguish between what is considered to be derived from the CDS master and the new mix.

Furthermore, I would start my investigation by decoding the files to PCM and compare the channels individually also visually in a wave editor. Even any level or dynamic differences would be interesting since the small differences caused by the different formats (AC3 vs. DTS) won't introduce them if decoded properly.

I'm not sure, but couldn't the japanese DTS be just an upscale of the AC3 audio?

Some publishers have no shame. DTS is a bullet point, so it's easy to upgrade an AC3 tracks to DTS on a home computer, and then sell loads of a DVD to people who think they will get a sound improvement.

Exactly that came to my mind as well. Which is why a detailed analysis would be advisable in this case. To really dig into this, one would have to decode everything to PCM, synchronize all the stuff, subtract it from each other and check what will remain.

Neither do I want to know which so-called "lossless" tracks, repackaged in Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are actually retrieved from lossy sources. Not to speak of converted pitches (25 fps, 23.976 fps, etc.) and other stuff.

Yet another question for me remains unanswered: How much better is DTS @1536 kbps really compared to AC3 @384 kbps? Most comparisons dealing with that question are invalid because they look at the end result only whereas often no one takes the effort to check if identical data was fed to the encoders.

I have this one ripped, and indeed, it has two mixes. I put it back at 24fps in an mkv. I think the 2.0 is the original Dolby Surround mix.