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Info: Terminator 2 - in search of the theatrical sound mix... — Page 3

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dvdmike said:

I have a great memory for colour and sound, and I still remember the gunshots in the the lift scene to be like the trailer, not the crappy "silenced" ones on the Live dvd 

 

Great, I was hoping I wasn't the only one that thought that. But this makes me wonder... what was disclord referencing when he spoke of the CDS mix being on the Artisan Live R1 DVD?

http://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2338&start=20

The Artisan Live mix seems to sound like all of the others and not what is heard in the theatrical trailer. Do any of the older laserdisc copies use the CDS master in the Dolby Stereo/Surround tracks?

If it turns out that the CDS mix actually wasn't used on any of the laserdiscs or DVDs then it would take hunting down the actual film of the CDS print and the decoder to go along with it. Nothing is impossible but that sure sounds like quite a feat. I would give much to see the film with the original CDS mix sync'd to a 1080p theatrical cut on Blu-Ray!

I can bid on the theatrical trailer if no one here is already and would like to help in any way I can.

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I have all home LD and dvd/bd editions and none have the gunshots.

I did ask Van Ling if we can get the CDS mix even lossy on a new BD and he said it depends on space 

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 (Edited)

dvdmike said:

I have all home LD and dvd/bd editions and none have the gunshots.

I did ask Van Ling if we can get the CDS mix even lossy on a new BD and he said it depends on space 

I am blown away that even Van Ling would consider this. 23 years later and dozens of home releases and we still don't know what it was like to experience this movie in its definitive form at home. This is reaching Star Wars level.

I'm very curious as to what more Van Ling has to say about this? To my understanding, he was the supervisor for the more recent "ultimate" and "extreme" home releases of this film. The idea that you were even able to get in contact with him over this is great. Why has the CDS mix been avoided for so long?

Again, the sound effects in the trailer sound much better than what's in any release of the film for home viewing. Just listen to 1:30 - 1:38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eajuMYNYtuY when the T-1000 slips through the prison bars... the home releases sound boring compared to that... DD or DTS all of them. Then, listen to any sample of gunfire from the trailer. Why "remaster" that with whatever Gary Rydstrom did? What was the goal?

None of the multi-channel mixes sound as good as the simple stereo theatrical trailer from 1991... that says a lot. Do any of the older VHS tapes use the CDS mix? I wish I had some on hand to find out.

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 (Edited)

Expecting a theatrical trailer to sound like the final version of a film soundtrack is an exercise in futility.  It is highly unlikely the same sound effects would have been used, and extremely likely the trailer was not mixed by the same people.

Therefore, the existence of such differences proves nothing.

Also, Gary Rydstrom was the sound designer for the original mixes, not just the redone version.

I see no reason to doubt disclord's information that the early DVD used the CDS 5.1 master.  Somebody should find a laserdisc PCM track of the Dolby Stereo version and see how that sounds—chances are it is pretty similar.

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Slightly OT but I'm gonna say it anyway. Supposedly, the reason for the sound effects change for the DVD and blu of Terminator 1 was James Cameron wanting the sound of the film to sound more like Terminator 2.

I want a completely re-done soundtrack and sound mix of Terminator 2 that matches the theatrical/mono mix of Terminator 1 :D

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hairy_hen said:

Expecting a theatrical trailer to sound like the final version of a film soundtrack is an exercise in futility.  It is highly unlikely the same sound effects would have been used, and extremely likely the trailer was not mixed by the same people.

Therefore, the existence of such differences proves nothing.

Also, Gary Rydstrom was the sound designer for the original mixes, not just the redone version.

I see no reason to doubt disclord's information that the early DVD used the CDS 5.1 master.  Somebody should find a laserdisc PCM track of the Dolby Stereo version and see how that sounds—chances are it is pretty similar.

I read the '98 Live DVD used the same master as LD68952-2DD which features a remixed Dolby Surround track. However, the very first laserdisc release would be LD48864-4WS which may have the absolute original audio track.

Then again maybe there are no differences at all and the R1 Live DVD is definitive. I am just searching for reassurance that it is. I got a little excited after hearing the trailer and wanted to believe that soundtrack exists somewhere. Maybe my ears aren't as good as others but I can't help but not notice a difference, if at all, when comparing the Live DVD to the other editions.

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hairy_hen said:

Expecting a theatrical trailer to sound like the final version of a film soundtrack is an exercise in futility.  It is highly unlikely the same sound effects would have been used, and extremely likely the trailer was not mixed by the same people.

Therefore, the existence of such differences proves nothing.

Also, Gary Rydstrom was the sound designer for the original mixes, not just the redone version.

I see no reason to doubt disclord's information that the early DVD used the CDS 5.1 master.  Somebody should find a laserdisc PCM track of the Dolby Stereo version and see how that sounds—chances are it is pretty similar.

 The version I saw in CDS was NOT exactly like the trailer but in no way were the gunshots silenced to the degree that the shitty near field mix was.

_,,,^..^,,,_said:

dvdmikesaid:

I have all home LD and dvd/bd editions and none have the gunshots.

What's about this one:PLFED 30341?

 I have that its in the pic in the OP at the top I have a rip I made of that scene somewhere I can upload it to YT one tick

kaosjm said:

dvdmike said:

I have all home LD and dvd/bd editions and none have the gunshots.

I did ask Van Ling if we can get the CDS mix even lossy on a new BD and he said it depends on space 

I am blown away that even Van Ling would consider this. 23 years later and dozens of home releases and we still don't know what it was like to experience this movie in its definitive form at home. This is reaching Star Wars level.

I'm very curious as to what more Van Ling has to say about this? To my understanding, he was the supervisor for the more recent "ultimate" and "extreme" home releases of this film. The idea that you were even able to get in contact with him over this is great. Why has the CDS mix been avoided for so long?

Again, the sound effects in the trailer sound much better than what's in any release of the film for home viewing. Just listen to 1:30 - 1:38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eajuMYNYtuY when the T-1000 slips through the prison bars... the home releases sound boring compared to that... DD or DTS all of them. Then, listen to any sample of gunfire from the trailer. Why "remaster" that with whatever Gary Rydstrom did? What was the goal?

None of the multi-channel mixes sound as good as the simple stereo theatrical trailer from 1991... that says a lot. Do any of the older VHS tapes use the CDS mix? I wish I had some on hand to find out.

 

Gary said at the time HT can in no way ever sound as good as a cinema, so he remixed it for near field (IE the speakers are nearer to you and the mix should be adjusted accordingly) I strongly disagree and think he ruined the fidelity 

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dvdmike said:

_,,,^..^,,,_said:

dvdmikesaid:

I have all home LD and dvd/bd editions and none have the gunshots.

What's about this one:PLFED 30341?

 I have that its in the pic in the OP at the top I have a rip I made of that scene somewhere I can upload it to YT one tick

Sorry, my bad, haven't noticed it... well, do you think it sounds like the NTSC version(s) by the way?

The ResolveR ultimate restoration workstation | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com |

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JP SE release 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZa1at4V7tY&feature=youtu.be

Is all I have on my HDD, the cannon for the shotgun and the silenced beretta 

I have one clip from that UK disc but not the same scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ziXQqRQgg4&feature=youtu.be

The M1911 should make you deaf you in that close proximity 

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_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

dvdmike said:

_,,,^..^,,,_said:

dvdmikesaid:

I have all home LD and dvd/bd editions and none have the gunshots.

What's about this one:PLFED 30341?

 I have that its in the pic in the OP at the top I have a rip I made of that scene somewhere I can upload it to YT one tick

Sorry, my bad, haven't noticed it... well, do you think it sounds like the NTSC version(s) by the way?

 Yep i think its identical, and that may mean I am wrong or none of the home mixes have the CDS mix 

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 (Edited)

Perhaps we do have to wait for a 35mm print to surface. (But do any CDS decoders still exist?)

Another question - would the Dolby Surround tracks on the original LD be the same as the Dolby SR theatrical mix (which is what most people would have heard in theaters)?

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TServo2049 said:

Perhaps we do have to wait for a 35mm print to surface. (But do any CDS decoders still exist?)

Another question - would the Dolby Surround tracks on the original LD be the same as the Dolby SR theatrical mix (which is what most people would have heard in theaters)?

 1 I doubt it they were flaky to begin with and I am pretty sure not all prints had the CDS it was a few 35mm and 70mm blow ups

2 In theory yes, but I and others do not remember it sounding this way 

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But if a 35mm print were to be found, it would have the theatrically accurate SR mix. So even if we never hear the CDS mix, we may someday at least learn if the SR mix in theaters was carried over to video...

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That is indeed true I however just found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnEACdAr1rk

And asked him for those scenes 

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 (Edited)

I remember reading this a while ago, I don't think I saw it posted here:

WSR Sun: Did you work with the stems, or just the final mix?

Rydstrom: I worked from the final mix stems, so I had the dialogue, music and effects separate and was able to do some remixing from those. I did some re-balancing between those elements, but mostly what I was doing was re-positioning some of the effects in the surround channel, placing them into the back surround channel and shifting some content from the front to the surrounds. I also generated surround channels for the music. The music actually consisted of only the front channels, and when we did the original mix, we generated a surround channel for the 70mm CDS version with the Dolby Stereo matrix encoder, which gave us just mono surround for the music. [CDS is Cinema Digital Sound, a short-lived digital film sound format.WSR Sun] So for this remixing, I did a pass where I would generate, through reverb units and the like, stereo reverb surround channels for the music.

http://www.widescreenreview.com/news_exdetail.php?title=vanling

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Great info thank you for that!

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 (Edited)

After reading about how Gary Rydstrom went about remastering T2 for the 2000 Artisan Ultimate Edition DVD it turns out I'm completely wrong about the whole thing. Disclord mentioned:

The first T2 DVD of the theatrical cut from Artisan uses the same 5.1 channel mix that was prepared for the 70mm Kodak/ORC Cinema Digital Sound prints

After reading the interview with Rydstrom it turns out the CDS mix was referenced in the 1993 Dolby Surroung laserdisc LD68952-2DD and later reused as the source for the 1998 Artisan/Live R1 DVD 5.1 Dolby Surround track. Rydstrom took it a step further for the 2000 DVD and remixed the audio to take advantage of the Dolby EX format. So, straight from the man’s mouth Rydstrom confirmed the CDS mix was in fact the source. I apologize for the confusion!

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He changed the mix WAY before the 2000 dvd

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dvdmike said:

He changed the mix WAY before the 2000 dvd

Is there any more info on what he changed? If this is the case then the only ways to hear the actual CDS mix would be to find a print that has it and decode it to listen to at home or go back to 1991 and find a theater that had CDS set up. Sadly no theaters showed it in CDS in my area at the time and I wouldn't even remember how it would've sounded then.

Even if one were to obtain the CDS mix how would you go about hearing it nowadays? I believe the first home release of T2 was in December '91. Had Rydstrom already remixed the soundtrack for the VHS/laserdiscs then or did that not come until later releases?

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 (Edited)

I posted that earlier piece from the Rydstrom interview because it not only tells us what he changed but what he changed it from. He gives us a clue as to what the CDS track or the studio theatrical master, would of sounded like. He indicated that the CDS was created using a Dolby Stereo encoder/decoder to create a surround channel. That means that the CDS would most likely have mono surrounds. That's important to note because even though CDS supports full 5.1, Terminator 2's CDS track would be 4.1:

He also says in the interview, that in this remix he stereo-ized the surrounds. So all discrete versions before that interview would be 4.1. So when I check the Live/Artisan DVD's AC3 track:

it has mono surrounds. All the soundtracks after this DVD in the US have split/stereo surrounds (and EX, ES, etc). So that means this DVD came from either the CDS soundtrack, a Dolby Stereo master or the master used to make both of those tracks. It looks like Disclord was right (which he always seemed to be).

(Rydstorm also says he didn't change any of the sounds which I believe, since T2 has sounded the same in every version I have ever heard)

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 (Edited)

Most CDS mixes were 4.0 or 4.1, I hope the guy with the cam, replies to me so we can put it to rest.

I may be wrong on this but it would be great to find out definitively.

The same in every version? The SE had a full near field remix for home video starting with the LD release so there are at least two mixes not including the digital / analogue mixes 

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 (Edited)

dvdmike said:

The same in every version? The SE had a full near field remix for home video starting with the LD release so there are at least two mixes not including the digital / analogue mixes 

I meant the sound effects not the mix. Rydstorm says he didn't change the effects in the interview.