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Info: TROS Edit Opinions Poll - RESULTS & ANALYSIS — Page 2

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Good point about the Rashomon shots. Yeah, TFA could work, maybe she’s always dreamed of these people, this family.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Oh shit, I never did the poll! Is it too late to contribute?

Sorry, poll’s closed, results are in. Although Eddie seems like he’s planning to do another poll later, so you might be able to contribute there.

My preferred saga experience:
ANH (4K77), ESB (Harmy), ROTJ (4K83).
Everything else is optional.

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Damn. How long was it even open for? I feel like I blinked and missed it.

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Regarding Finn’s story, would it be possible to use his and Rose’s TLJ stuff here? Basically just cut their whole Canto Bight & Supremacy stuff and work Finn and Rose on the Supremacy into the section where they’re sneaking aboard the Star Destroyer? Along with his fight with Phasma?

PT: CoD/TAS/TCW/FotR(NCC)
OT: Reimagined/Revisited/…
ST: Starlight/Rekindled/Resurgence

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Yeah, probably not. I just like the idea of doing anything with Finn in this one.😕

PT: CoD/TAS/TCW/FotR(NCC)
OT: Reimagined/Revisited/…
ST: Starlight/Rekindled/Resurgence

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 (Edited)

Delpheas said:

Yeah, probably not. I just like the idea of doing anything with Finn in this one.😕

It’s such a shame they wasted Finn. Him and Rey meeting (and their budding friendship/relationship) was one of my favorite bits of the trilogy early on, and his back story was something we hadn’t seen before. After TFA, though, he clearly wasn’t a priority for any of the writers, and was just “also there”.

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That’s kind of an accurate description of a lot of the characters after TFA… Lucasfilm can claim all they want that they had an outline that always included TLJ & TRoS/DotF, but it’s pretty clear that if they did they didn’t communicate that clearly to the directors and writers, which I think is partly to blame for the misuse of Finn. The writers didn’t know what to build to, so they didn’t.

PT: CoD/TAS/TCW/FotR(NCC)
OT: Reimagined/Revisited/…
ST: Starlight/Rekindled/Resurgence

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raphdude said:

Interesting poll! I’m sorry I missed out on it. Just curious, are you considering an option of undoing some of the female first order trooper voices/screams and making them male? I have a feeling Kathleen Kennedy sat there in the editing room and said, “Make that one a whammen, whammen, whammen here, put a whammen there, whammen soldier, whammen soldier, wabbit season, wabbit season!” Whoops!

Please no

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Oh god, it’s one of those people.

My preferred saga experience:
ANH (4K77), ESB (Harmy), ROTJ (4K83).
Everything else is optional.

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Even the First Order put’s the red line at misogyny. 😉

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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raphdude said:

Interesting poll! I’m sorry I missed out on it. Just curious, are you considering an option of undoing some of the female first order trooper voices/screams and making them male? I have a feeling Kathleen Kennedy sat there in the editing room and said, “Make that one a whammen, whammen, whammen here, put a whammen there, whammen soldier, whammen soldier, wabbit season, wabbit season!” Whoops!

I did not, and will not, consider asking about whether women should have the roles they have in this movie, or any other Star Wars movie, or for any other subject about which I might make a poll in my life. Decreasing the prominence of roles which represent the breadth and potential of female existence is not something I think is necessary or valid or, frankly, human. Thank you for your interest in the poll, I’m sorry to have missed your input. I’m afraid you’ll have to look elsewhere for help pursuing that idea, and insofar as I can make the request of you, I’d appreciate if you kept such lines of thought out of this thread.

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 (Edited)

raphdude said:

Interesting poll! I’m sorry I missed out on it. Just curious, are you considering an option of undoing some of the female first order trooper voices/screams and making them male? I have a feeling Kathleen Kennedy sat there in the editing room and said, “Make that one a whammen, whammen, whammen here, put a whammen there, whammen soldier, whammen soldier, wabbit season, wabbit season!” Whoops!

This is beyond meaningless. Even the Empire had quite a share of female stormtroopers and officers. Grow up.

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 (Edited)

I don’t know why I’m doing this, but to be fair he was talking about FO personnel. I wouldn’t raise this point if he had said this about the Resistance or characters in general. The Empire that we see and get to know within the OT films comprises white men, a rather Nazi-esque group in their overall style.

The FO seems to have… progressed to a much more diverse, multiethnic and gender group. I guess anyone has a chance to be evil!

In the EU, new and old, efforts have been made to make the Empire (and to be fair the rebels too somewhat, especially pre-ROTJ, seen prominently in Rogue One as compared to ANH) more diverse, so that in universe when taking all media into account it’s pretty uniform throughout. As opposed to, say, seeing an office with all men working at desks and all female secretarial staff and using that to help you determine when it was filmed and/or set. Norms of society shift over time.

Now… I’m not defending what I perceive his point to be per se, but I kind of like the OT Empire being pretty well monolithic and implicitly racist, mostly out of a desire to rationalize the lore of the movies without cheating by talking about other things off camera that change things, but the FO is a different beast forged in a different generation and having different needs in order to amass power.

JEDIT: To be extra clear, my value criterion here is verisimilitude of the movies as they are, extrapolating from them rather than pushing other things onto them. The same way some of us may have thought up in-universe explanations for filmmaking issues like the ‘force field’ under the landspeeder or a convoluted reason for 3PO to waver on recognizing Leia in ANH.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Reading the Empire as an allegory for the United States during the Vietnam War, having women as Stormtroopers in the First Order makes total sense.

The allegories for fascism are very very clear, but most modern iterations are more subtle about disregarding women and other minorities. “Women are in our movement therefore the our fascist group cannot be inherently bigoted!”

Even though I don’t think there’s much genuine intentional political commentary in the Disney-era films, I do think it improves them to read them allegoricaly.

TLDR: I wouldn’t agree with the choice to remove women-voiced stormtroopers

i had lots of fun!!! : ) ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍

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 (Edited)

Um I think all stormtroopers should be MEN, hell even the male stormtroopers we got in the movie sounded like PUSSIES that talk to women, we have to dub them with only the manliest of voices: like Sean Connery, Harrison Ford, Clint Eastwood, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Larry the Lobster, Caillou, etc. That’s the only way I’d believe this empire could dominate the galaxy. Women? Please. Not in my Star Wars.

EDIT: this was a sarcastic shitpost

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LMAO

i had lots of fun!!! : ) ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍

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 (Edited)

Hal, your argument’s made in perfectly good faith, so please take this the same. The fact that Imperial/FO troops have historically been primarily male and implicitly (or explicitly only in the EU) prejudiced organisations is valid. Just as a valid opposition to Holdo having purple hair, is that there was an observed soft rule in early SW design that Imperials would use unnatural colours and rebels would use natural ones.

But there’s still a couple of issues. Firstly but least importantly, that it’s not a hard rule that Disney are breaking by having female roles like this, because it hasn’t been made explicit in core media that these organisations have these prejudices. And it’s not like even with an established rule, that a writer couldn’t introduce the change with a throwaway line. (Especially in Star Wars… If Palpatine can “somehow” return, the First Order can “somehow” have included more women in its ranks.)

But mostly, it’s that adherence to canon or implicit soft rules isn’t the motivation of that poster and other similar posters. I’ll need to make generalised assumptions about people now, but it feels very safe to say that quotes like “Kathleen Kennedy mandated…” or “whammen whammen whammen” or “admiral gender studies” indicate that such posters are formally or informally a part of the broader movement which seeks to continue to suppress accurate and equal female representation. Or, to put it more succinctly, it’s not about Star Wars at all, it’s about women.

And this is where we get subjective, but the world needs better female representation. It needs women growing up to believe they are valid, and strong, and deserving of all the opportunities and privileges and securities men have. It needs men to accept, support, and celebrate that. I’m not going to justify that statement because nobody wants a feminist rant right now, but my point here is that, while your argument about canon is valid, the real-world gain of representation is far greater than the minor impact on inexplicit soft canon. So I think that needs to be the determining factor here - it’s certainly why I personally didn’t consider the option for my poll. End of main response.

As an aside, I wish I could credit Disney for this, but again, motivation is key. I believe that Kathleen Kennedy / other writers / Disney are moving towards being progressive, but I believe they’re capitalist first. KK/OW/D may have minor progressive leanings (I believe KK takes genuine pride in representation of diversity), but I believe that the real reason that Disney and other large companies are shifting progressive is because that’s the way the markets are shifting right now. It’s only relatively recently that entertainment media, especially movies, have realised that women can be just as passionate and engaged (and marketable) fans as men, once the representation is there. For example, I love that Forces of Destiny has a strong female focus, because that representation is still the greater good, but I know that behind the scenes for Disney it’s an investment in growing their market share.

I believe this is why there is broad backlash from typical anti-progressive communities too - for those for whom a progressive world is seen as a threat, they see this change in representation and they want to create a backlash, because backlash can hit these companies in their bottom line - they’re speaking in capitalism, because that’s what these companies respond to. This is also why I think it’s likely that Disney would never lean too hard into explicitly showing “the baddies” as particularly prejudiced - because being told “racism is what baddies do”, or “sexism is what baddies do”, or similar, is still something that risks a money-damaging public backlash from the kind of people who oppose this culture shift.

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Fantastic post!!

i had lots of fun!!! : ) ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍

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 (Edited)

Goddamn, I hate getting preachy, it’s not fun for anyone. But I know that being a woman or other non straight white cis male, and trying to just enjoy fun things, and having to see oppressive trash like this so frequently must be way more fucking invalidating and frustrating. Just fuck off and let us enjoy thinking about magic laser knights and pew pew spaceships together.