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Info: Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan - ABC cut — Page 3

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SilverWook said: Someone is going to have to watch the ABC and ThisTv versions side by side to catch any other slight differences.

I'm willing to do this.  I know the film and the differences between cuts very well.

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suntech, do you pick up This TV from a cable system, or terrestrial antenna? Just curious.

My friend's disc came in the mail. It does look a little compress-ey, possibly due to being HSP, but that could also be due to compression on the broadcast end (even with OTA, digital TV signals aren't raw uncompressed video, are they?)

The worse news is that my computer's drive will not detect the disc. My set-top player will, so it's thankfully not a coaster. But if I can't read it on my computer I can't rip it, meaning that I'd have to ship the original disc out to whoever's doing the project instead of just sending them VOB files. I'll see if I can update drivers/firmware and get it to work, otherwise I guess I would have to mail out the original disc itself.

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What make/model of DVD recorder was used? Of course, the discs themselves might be the culprit.

Is there any weird jerkiness to the video? Like frames are being dropped? It's probably my crappy cable system, but I only see this on the SD subchannels.

If you can get your friend to capture the next broadcast on the 25th, maybe just use single layer discs this time?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

What make/model of DVD recorder was used? Of course, the discs themselves might be the culprit.

Is there any weird jerkiness to the video? Like frames are being dropped? It's probably my crappy cable system, but I only see this on the SD subchannels.

If you can get your friend to capture the next broadcast on the 25th, maybe just use single layer discs this time?

That would require switching the disc twice to get it in 1-hour mode, and the showing is at 9:30 at night.

I'd rather try to make this one work.

On another set-top I have, it runs, but only after almost 60 seconds of whirring and clicking.

And yes, I do see compression with fast motion. A fair amount of smearing and artifacting - I think a good amount of it might have been on the tape and/or broadcast signal themselves.

And as to jerking, it's not just you - there is definitely jerking whenever the camera pans. I think this may suffer from "time-compression stutter" like I used to see on TBS (where instead of just blur from frame-blending, there would be almost regular "skips" due to frames/fields seemingly being dropped by the compression process) - I'm trying to run it in sync from the beginning to see if there's any drift. The music's in sync...

....aaaand as soon as we get to Saavik's Captain's Log, it suddenly drifts completely out of sync. Yup, I guess it's f***ing time-compressed. I should have known it would be, this is commercial TV after all. (And actually, the ABC airing may have also been time-compressed - explaining the blending and the inability to get a clean IVTC. I believe ABC was already time-compressing movies in the late 80s?)

So on top of everything looking compressed, if it's time-compressed it won't yield any better of an IVTC.

I found a crappy Emprex USB drive that actually detects the disc, so I'm going to attempt a rip. If successful, I will analyze how it looks.

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OK, good news and bad news time. Good news: The Emprex drive ripped the first 4 VOB files. DVD Decrypter crapped out with an I/O error on VTS_01_5 every time I tried (and in fact, I couldn't get it to rip VTS_01_4 without an I/O error after the first time). Perhaps it's not DL compatible and can only get the first layer.

Also, VTS_01_1 will only play in MPC and SMPlayer. Trying to open in VLC, it doesn't load. Trying to open in VirtualDub, it just shows the disc menu and says "99% free". Trying to open in AviDemux, it says "Cannot find a muxer" or something. Windows doesn't have any bitrate/framerate/time info on that file either. The next three VOB files all work everywhere.

I have no idea if this is a bad burn - it will play to completion on both of my set tops (though it doesn't always detect on my bedroom one). Maybe it's just the combination of it being Memorex, DVD+R (instead of -R) and DL?

Time compressed, compression artifacting, picky disc, and what I can rip doesn't work everywhere. Not to mention that when I put the disc back in the Emprex, it never detected it again. Maybe this is just fruitless.

Maybe suntech can just burn his version from his DVR - I don't want to make my friend do this a second time, at 9:30 at night on a Monday, having to switch discs twice. Especially if it won't yield better results (due to being, you know, time compressed...)

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I had problems with Memorex discs before, and double layer is a crapshoot at the best of times.

If this thing is time compressed on top of everything else, maybe we're better off not using it at all. :(

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Right now, I'm trying something even more insane - I'm ripping the disc onto my DVD recorder (which has a built-in hard drive) and I'm going to split it up so I can burn it onto my own single-layer discs. That could actually work (though whether image quality of the end result will be worth it, I can't say).

Yeah, it's definitely time-compressed. I can't believe we never even considered that it would be - most movie airings are these days.

I still want to get a usable rip if I can, just so you can see it and decide for yourself whether it's not worth it.

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Good luck!

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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TServo2049 said:

(And actually, the ABC airing may have also been time-compressed - explaining the blending and the inability to get a clean IVTC. I believe ABC was already time-compressing movies in the late 80s?)

I can't say with any specificity about TWOK in particular, but yes, they most certainly were.

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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I have my doubts the ABC broadcast was time compressed. It ran in a three hour timeslot. (ThisTV is running it in a two hour thirty minute slot.) There were less commercials per hour in those days as well.

It may have more to do with my horrid analog cable system at the time, combined with being recorded in the four hour LP mode.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

I have my doubts the ABC broadcast was time compressed. It ran in a three hour timeslot. (ThisTV is running it in a two hour thirty minute slot.) There were less commercials per hour in those days as well.

It may have more to do with my horrid analog cable system at the time, combined with being recorded in the four hour LP mode.

As I said, I have no data regarding the TWOK airing. They may not and, given the time slot you mention, probably did not in this case. But they definitely were using time compression at the time.

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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TServo2049 said:

suntech, do you pick up This TV from a cable system, or terrestrial antenna? Just curious.

My friend's disc came in the mail. It does look a little compress-ey, possibly due to being HSP, but that could also be due to compression on the broadcast end (even with OTA, digital TV signals aren't raw uncompressed video, are they?)

The worse news is that my computer's drive will not detect the disc. My set-top player will, so it's thankfully not a coaster. But if I can't read it on my computer I can't rip it, meaning that I'd have to ship the original disc out to whoever's doing the project instead of just sending them VOB files. I'll see if I can update drivers/firmware and get it to work, otherwise I guess I would have to mail out the original disc itself.

 Magnavox MDR513H Hard drive DVR. I haven't transferred to disk yet.  Cable source, it is compressed a bit and I noticed an occasional little stutter (the best way I can describe it is like this. If the scene shows some one walking it looks like they are playing it frame by frame at a high speed almost to be undetectable as the scene goes one frame at a time.) I have seen this before on low budget stations like they have a computer that doesn't have a fast enough hard drive and a older cpu so the system can not keep up with the program. does that make sense? As I mentioned it looks like the DC to me I did not watch it all the way through but I FF to all the relevant scenes and I did not notice anything different. 

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suntech said:

I noticed an occasional little stutter (the best way I can describe it is like this. If the scene shows some one walking it looks like they are playing it frame by frame at a high speed almost to be undetectable as the scene goes one frame at a time.) I have seen this before on low budget stations like they have a computer that doesn't have a fast enough hard drive and a older cpu so the system can not keep up with the program. does that make sense?

Yes, but we've already established that the stutter was most likely an artifact of the movie being time-compressed. You, SilverWook and I all saw it.

As to ABC - knowing it ran in a 3-hour slot, I am willing to believe it wasn't time compressed. But does the other copy also have blending?

I do know (in particular from my L.A. friend, who is 7 years older than me) that the TV networks' telecine equipment (ABC's in particular) were behind the curve for much of the 80s - I don't know whether it was still film-chain or if it was flying-spot, but whatever it was, it still had a tendency to pick up an "after-image" of the last frame of film, hence the blending.

Anything that was transferred to video by the network, as opposed to being received on tape from the studios, would have this problem. Even when studios started sending some movies out on tape (e.g., Star Wars), there were still movies, especially TV versions with extended scenes and/or alternate "TV-friendly" takes, being transferred from film at the network into the mid/late 80s. (Even as late as 1987, the TV edit of Ghostbusters as broadcast on ABC looked decidedly more "smeary" than the official home video transfer.)

TWOK premiered on ABC in 1985, so it would have still been in this era.

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I'm sorry to disappoint you guys but this is not the abc cut, it's the directors cut. Compare it to the available abc cuts on myspleen, the burned in "edited for television", the extra line from the computer about the kobayashi maru, the turbolift scene, the general framing, it's all missing. This is the directors cut, it's unusual that This was able to acquire it but since it has all the other changes from the abc cut and is in widescreen it seems like a better candidate for tv than a 30 year old 4x3 master.

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I suspected that that be the case from what was being described.  The two are very close.

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Ok, that makes much more sense.

I was able to rip the disc to my set-top DVD recorded hard drive and split it into three 1-hour-mode single-layer discs, but since not even the framing in the additional scenes is the same, on top of the digital compression and time-compression, I guess there's no point in trying to do anything more with the This version?

I don't even know if Paramount has the ABC master. As I said, I believe the video transfer for the ABC cut was done by ABC - read my previous post on that for more of what I know (or at least have heard/deduced).

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^ Perhaps there isn't, but I'm still curious to see what it looks like.  I also wonder if what SilverWook saw initially was different from subsequent broadcasts.  He said that the commercial breaks and fade outs were in the same places, and he knows the film well.

SilverWook, was what you saw in widescreen or 4:3?  I had assumed it was 4:3.

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The "edited for Televison" caption was video generated, therefore I believe ABC added it.

Whatever version Thistv is running, it's old, it's pan and scan, it's hissy, and it's mono. (The only thing I've seen them run in widescreen, is the later seasons of Stargate SG-1. And those are probably the same letterbox SD masters Sci-Fi had.) I'm still wondering where they got a pan and scan of the restored Lawrence of Arabia, as I never even saw a full frame VHS of that.

In the 90's, I taped later syndicated broadcasts of TWOK in vain, hoping the extra footage would be there. It was always the theatrical cut.

There are much newer pan and scan masters they could have used, and somehow this gets pulled from the vault.

There were some more cruder breaks put in. These don't have fade outs though.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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That is confusing because the director's cut was released in 2002, so it doesn't seem old enough to have some of the features that this broadcast has.  I understand what you're saying about this channel's having pan-and-scan versions of almost everything they broadcast, but I don't understand the hissy mono, nor the presence of the same caption as the ABC TV cut.

Perhaps this is simply a different TV cut, or perhaps the director's cut somehow pre-dates the DVD release  Regardless, I would definitely be interested in having a look if TServo2049 is willing to share it.

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I did not see "the edited for tv" on the Thistv broadcast. I was trying to clarify why it wouldn't be on this version. Sorry for any confusion.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Still willing to share. I have all three re-burned single-layer, 1-hr -R's ripped to my PC, so I can finally share them somehow. I'll probably just do a WeTransfer to you two Wookiees, who can then pass it along to others.

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TServo2049 said: I'll probably just do a WeTransfer to you two Wookiees...

 Hahaha!  Thanks. :-)

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Any way the ABC cut can be recreated using the DC in widescreen?

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My understanding is that the difference between the ABC cut and the DC is primarily alternate footage. This would make it difficult to reconstruct smoothly.

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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MTV's VIVA channel are currently screening a season of the TOS films, beginning with TWOK and I was hoping they might have the extended TV versions of TWOK and TMP. No such luck, tonight's broadcast of TWOK was the theatrical release.

I'm betting that Paramount does have the video masters because in the past decade, the Special Longer Version of TMP was shown on BBC Three - and in widescreen, albeit cropped to 16:9. 

“Logic is the battlefield of adulthood.”

  • Howard Berk