Info: James Bond - Laserdisc Preservations: 1962-1971 — Page 5

In my opinion Lowry did far too much grain removal and had no right even at the studios suggestion to change the color timing.  At least on Thunderball they scanned the negative full aperture.

On Goldeneye the aspect ratio is too tight and incorrect.  Either they were given the wrong negative to scan, or they completely fucked it up at the telecine stage.

The original cinematographers and directors where they were still alive should have been consulted as to the changing the color shemes of the movies.

The Director of Thunderball for intance i believe he also directed from russia with love and dr no would have been against the changes imposed.  The old laserdisc releases grain scratches and all were truer to the original theatrical releases, even down to the skin tones. 

To me the bluish tint either added purposely or on accident to  frwl was an abomination.

The worst to me of all are the color botch jobs on her majesty's secret service and live and let die.

The only director approved editions of from russia with love and dr no on home video were made when the director was still alive and recorded the banned commentray for the citerion laserdiscs, the self same release.

Some postives about the Lowry Transfers they were the correct aspect ratio for the first time for some of the films, like dr. no and from russia with love.  Working from the camera negatives got rid of multiple generations of dirt and scratches and wear and tear from the copies. 

The biggest hurdle lowry faced was the opticals presented a problem.  The live action footage was restored so beautifully it no longer matched the sometimes many generations  removed composite opticals created in an optical printer before the advent of digital and computers. 

Unlike george lucas they did not have access to the original opticals to be recomped to remove the generation loss which was a compromise then and would not have been a problem on a production today where you can composite multiple elements seemlessly in the digital domain on a computer.  So they actually had to degrade the image of the live action photography a bit to match the opticals, a compromise to be sure.

I am sure things could be worse.  Some of the effects on the old movies look cheap and done on a budget like the opening space scene in you only live twice.  But i would just as soon leave it as is then add cartoon looking cgi and lucasize the films.

Well, the thing is that Thunderball is one of the Bonds that is always mucked up. First there are all of the different audio versions: "Sorry old boy, better luck next time/now you can tell about the one that got away", Pinder's manta ray line, the score or lack of it in the bomb reveal scene, use of the James Bond theme or a reprise of Thunderball over the end credits.

Then you have to look at the various color renditions over the years. The film has an odd look to it when compared to the others, and I think this comes from the fact that it was the first Bond to be in Panavision. The UE has color changes made by the restoration team, and while they aren't too distracting-they just aren't a part of the film. The one good thing about the old SEs were that some of the original colors were there. This MGM LD collector's set is reputed to have the best rendition of the original colors of the film.

Does the Blu-ray fix any of these issues? Otherwise I'm seriously considering tracking this LD set down. I saw the restored film in a theater and it did look better. The soundtrack issues are something else, the UE has the "Now you can" line in mono, but the 5.1 mix has "Sorry old boy" on the exact same disc! Would it have been that hard to include the other track with differences?? I grew up on a VHS copy of the film and know one track by heart. What should really be done (and I know this seems really nitpicky) is an option be made to select which of these differences should be included while watching the film.

Can it be done?

I have the blu-ray for Thunderball, and it looks nice enough... but it's no improvement like the Live and Let Die one was. I could swear there were portions where Largo's skintone was almost purple, which really took me out of the movie.

Glad to see Live and Let Die has finally been given proper treatment, but Thunderball just seems to get worse over the years. I remember first popping in the UE and expecting it to blow away my letterbox VHS. Yes it was pristine, but the colors were way off and muted not to mention the soundtrack had the different cues. YOLT has almost all of the color stripped out when compared to previous versions. At first I just thought I was used to a dirty video master or something, but then I saw the UE of LALD and the awful tinted opening on OHMSS-these have led me to question things.

Did this project ever get anywhere? I see it was canceled for being too close to an official release, but this would actually be a preservation of a LD restoration from 1995 and not the SE DVD or Lowry UE and Blu ray. They are entirely different transfers/masterings. Or is the original SE disc of Thunderball sourced from the LD master? I don't own it so I can't compare. It doesn't have the original mono though.

The main problem I had with doing this project was the lack of quality I was getting from my LD player. It's just not in my budget to upgrade to a high end player at this time.     

Somehow, I still think it'd look good enough for us. :p

The problem with going back to the original camera negatives is the final color timing of the original theatrical release is lost.  They are literally retiming them from scratch.

captainsolo said:

Glad to see Live and Let Die has finally been given proper treatment, but Thunderball just seems to get worse over the years. I remember first popping in the UE and expecting it to blow away my letterbox VHS. Yes it was pristine, but the colors were way off and muted not to mention the soundtrack had the different cues. YOLT has almost all of the color stripped out when compared to previous versions. At first I just thought I was used to a dirty video master or something, but then I saw the UE of LALD and the awful tinted opening on OHMSS-these have led me to question things.

Did this project ever get anywhere? I see it was canceled for being too close to an official release, but this would actually be a preservation of a LD restoration from 1995 and not the SE DVD or Lowry UE and Blu ray. They are entirely different transfers/masterings. Or is the original SE disc of Thunderball sourced from the LD master? I don't own it so I can't compare. It doesn't have the original mono though.

There were different laserdisc masters for thunderball.  The deluxe set i have has less picture information on the sides than the non restored original letterbox release or Connery Collection disc.

Most of the SE lasers were cancelled.  Not many received the THX standard, or ac3 on laserdisc.

Though i do believe the anamorphic dvd of the SE is from the same print as the SE laserdisc.

The old Laserdiscs and SE dvd's had the proper color timing. Only a lot of wear and tear, scratches and dirty opticals.  I still think lowry removed far too much grain, the new ones UE look like updated for a modern look colorwise, and look like video not film.

If i was a director the last place i would bring my film to be restored is Lowry.  How many films have they reduced to looking like video and pristine.

Sky, have you watched the blu-rays?  From Russia with Love still has quite a bit of grain.  And my DVD copy of Dr. No seems about the same, but I may be mistaken.  I'm not really a good eye for these things.  Though others didn't get quite as nice treatment, such as the original Live & Let Die DVD (the blu-ray looks so much better, you have no idea).  I will concede that FRWL has a blue tint, and can't believe I only now noticed.

I bet that's why some of the more problematic titles (TSWLM, Goldeneye) haven't been released yet for blu. The Lowry produced UEs on DVD are hit or miss. I've started collecting the various SE discs that I know are superior to the UEs. They also have their own problems, but the colors are right and exactly what they should be. Really wish I had bought the SEs when they were originally out.

This is the best comparison I have seen of the standard def releases: http://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3053

Well guys, It looks like this project is back on again.

I am not happy with ANY of the released versions (including the new Blu ray edition), so I am going to return to this project and make my own preservation.  My main focus will still be on the audio, bu

Video Source = 1997 (out of print) Special Edition (with some minor tweaks)

Original Mono = PCM Audio from 1989 Laserdisk

THX Mono = PCM audio from 30th Anniversary Laserdisk set

"Thunderball" End Theme = from 1992 MGM/UA home video release.

Music / effects only track = Extracted from 2006 Ultimate Edition DVD

Isolated Score = Newly created, and presented in Lossless quality.

*5.1 English DTS = 2006 Ultimate Edition DVD (*decision to include this is not final.)

I want to make it so that you can experience this film with lossless PCM  audio in any of it's four alternate versions.

You can see what these differences are at the link below.

http://www.obsessional.co.uk/lostandfound.htm

More to come....

A definitive Thunderball with all mixes and the SE video?

OMG YES!! Finally one disc where you can hear both shark pool lines and see that rich color again. This is one of the ones where Lowry just screwed up royally.

Thanks for the encouragement captainsolo! I will do my best to make this edition definitive for fans like us.  Right now I am capturing the version from the "Connery Collection Vol. 2" laserdisk box set.  I pray that there will be no noticeable audio problems due to unforeseen disk rot on any of the multiple L.D. editions I own of "Thunderball".  If there are problems, I will have to search for replacements. Something I truly don't want to do, because I already own 8 official versions of this film on different home video formats.

3 on L.D.

2 on DVD (S.E. and U.E.)

2 on VHS

1 on Blu-ray

Right there with you-I own 4. And after seeing the new 35mm print and not being at all satisfied I knew even the blu would stink.

Just out of curiosity (and to satisfy my inner Bond completest) what are the differences between each of the LD releases? The 95 deluxe set is where they tried to restore the Technicolor look right?

Wonder if the last LD of Thunderball is worth tracking down. I think they just ported that over for the SE disc.

The 1989 (2 disk gatefold) and 1993 (Connery Collection Vol. II 3-film box set) laserdisk versions are the same print with the alternate mono soundtrack featuring the rare instrumental "Thunderball" end title theme.  The secondary mono audio track on the Blu-ray has all these alternate audio variations except the "Thunderball" end theme. In it's place, the Ultimate edition and Blu-ray 5.1, and also the secondary mono audio track on the Blu-ray use the James Bond Theme for the end titles.  It is also important to note the the color on the 1993 (Connery Collection Vol. II)is a bit better then the 1989 (2 disk gatefold) version.

The THX (30th Anniversary) Edition is important for a few reasons.

It has THX Laserdisk mastering, and is presented in Standard Play format and uses 5 sides for the film (sides 6 and 7 are the extras, and are in CLV Extended play). The 1989 and 1993 are only CLV Extended play, and use 3 sides.

This is the same restored print that was used for the S.E. DVD. It has  lossless PCM audio.   That version of the soundtrack is only available in remixed 5.1 Dolby Digital on the S.E. DVD, or remixed with additional sound enhancements in 5.1 DTS on the Blu-Ray.

Hope that helps. 

As a side note, I want to create a new 2.0 stereo mix to match the original mono version. I will use the 5.1 mix as a blueprint on how to pan the sound in most of the scenes, but will not use the modern enhanced sound effect elements added to the U.E and Blu-ray. I also hope to use the stereo soundtrack CD's of the Barry score for the music mix. This new stereo mix will also be PCM lossless.

Right now, I am capturing the 1993 CLV version to my HD.

Awesome. That makes some sense out of all the LDs and various audio mixes. The new mix sounds like a good idea if possible.

Thank you for doing this. I have wanted to do some of the Bonds myself, mainly this and TSWLM for some time.

What is this LD?

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/08065/ML105655/Thunderball-%281965%29

captainsolo said:

Awesome. That makes some sense out of all the LDs and various audio mixes. The new mix sounds like a good idea if possible.

Thank you for doing this. I have wanted to do some of the Bonds myself, mainly this and TSWLM for some time.

What is this LD?

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/08065/ML105655/Thunderball-%281965%29

That is the restored print that is on the THX 30th anniversary set and the S.E. DVD, but it's in CLV extended play format. It's only 3 sides. The THX box is the better choice for that print of the film. I'm not sure about the cropping on that version, as I don't own it.

How is the bitrate on the 97 SE discs? Would it perhaps be better to use the UE and then colormatch it to the SE discs, making occasional changes here and there? I mean, a DVD from 1997 probably doesn't have very good bitrate...

Also, broken link, but...

Andrew-Kenneth said:

<div class="PostQuote"><span class="Italics">Originally posted by: <span class="Bold">Stamper</span></span>
Does the UE DVD offers more information than the SE one ? </div>

Yes, it does. (on all four sides.)

comparison screenshots =>
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=61922

Also note that the image of the SE is slightly squashed, distorting the image. (causing people's face's to appear thin and long...)

Andrew

bkev said:

How is the bitrate on the 97 SE discs? Would it perhaps be better to use the UE and then colormatch it to the SE discs, making occasional changes here and there? I mean, a DVD from 1997 probably doesn't have very good bitrate...

I hear what you are saying, and I will have to play with them and compare quality. 

I did make a sad discovery tonight, and that is that the THX laserdisc version is in fact missing some picture information, but not in every scene. The pre-title sequence looks like it's not cropped, but Bond's dance with Domino at Cafe Martinique is. I may go back to the Connery Collection LD as the video source and just clean that up A bit for this preservation, but I will have to see after I finish the audio work.

Update: I now have the two L.D. versions I'm using as my sources on my PC, and I have about half of the film synced up with the alternate audio versions as of this posting.  

Thanks for taking my concerns into consideration. We all want this to be the best project it can. Good luck!

captainsolo said:

Awesome. That makes some sense out of all the LDs and various audio mixes. The new mix sounds like a good idea if possible.

Thank you for doing this. I have wanted to do some of the Bonds myself, mainly this and TSWLM for some time.

What is this LD?

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/08065/ML105655/Thunderball-%281965%29

Is that the disc with the ac3?

I think it is.

This is what I am going to do right now.  I'm going to make available the preservation of the original letterbox laser version for download in the next few days.  That is the full aspect ratio (non-cropped) letterbox version contained in the Connery Collection Vol. II box set.  I will include the PCM mono audio from that version, and also include the alternate PCM audio from the THX version.

After that, I will release the THX version preservation with the same two audio tracks.

This will take care of the preservation of the various laser releases.  Then after that, I can release my own definitive edition with the newly created audio tracks. Doing it this way will let fans obtain a number of versions for their collections. 

FF

skyjedi2005 said:

captainsolo said:

Awesome. That makes some sense out of all the LDs and various audio mixes. The new mix sounds like a good idea if possible.

Thank you for doing this. I have wanted to do some of the Bonds myself, mainly this and TSWLM for some time.

What is this LD?

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/08065/ML105655/Thunderball-%281965%29

Is that the disc with the ac3?

I think it is.

Yes it is.  The THX 30th box has the same ac3 mix.

I went out today to buy a RCA digital coax cable for my laserdisc player. I just need the Coax to optical Toslink converter box so that I can capture the AC3 to my computer. Once I do that I can use my DTS converter and make lossless DTS tracks for you guys.

So the Connery Collection won't be converted to anamorphic? Oh well, I'll still check it out.

bkev said:

So the Connery Collection won't be converted to anamorphic? Oh well, I'll still check it out.

Take a look at the quality and tell me if you think it would look good upsized to anamorphic. I will give it a shot if you feel it is worth it. I would value your opinion.

FF