Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 95

I'm transfering the basic idea over here from the Prequel Radical Redux Thread.

If the prequels get a title change I vote for returning ROTJ to Revenge Of The Jedi it's a much better title and the Jedi are clearly not as holy as they would like us to believe (Jedi not gaining revenge is almost as bad as Han not shooting first).

I waited for Revenge Of The Jedi for three years (after Mark Hamill announced the title on Blue Peter while promoting ESB), saw trailers with that name and even purchased toys with it on the packaging.

What better way of saying that the film has been restored to the point of being a fitting conclusion of what started in 1977 than to give it back it's original title.

i'm srry, but revenge is never used in the jedi code, so no changing the title please. i'm putting that title into carbon freeze

rcb said:

i'm srry, but revenge is never used in the jedi code, so no changing the title please. i'm putting that title into carbon freeze

If the prequels and ROTJ had never happened I might be convinced to agree.

But really Palpatine is right about the Jedi, they are almost exactly the same.

They both use deception, violence and slavery to further their aims.

The Jedi code is followed dogamatically and is morally dubious to say the least (child military indoctrination, cultish family disconnection etc).

We hold a lot on trust with the Jedi.

Darth Sidious/Palpatine seizes ultimate power, promising to return it when democracy is safe (Mace Windu and Yoda contemplate the same action) we know that Palpatine never intends to hand over power but if Mace had been successful do we know for sure that the Jedi would be any different?

This makes for entertaining reading :

http://www.soundedit.com.au/swaggers/jed.html

But Luke doesn't try to get Revenge. He goes in with the plan of redeeming his father. That Palpy dies is an after effect of that goal.

TheBoost said:

But Luke doesn't try to get Revenge. He goes in with the plan of redeeming his father. That Palpy dies is an after effect of that goal.

You are assuming that the Jedi in the title is Luke, what if it's Anakin or the order in general?

Anakln certainly has revenge on the man who tricked him into betraying and murdering his friends on the promise of saving his wife that his new powers drove him to destroy.

The Jedi as an order were reduced from thousands to just two and you might argue that they didn't seek revenge only the restoration of galactic freedom they certainly got it anyway.

Luke doesn't go in with a plan really.

He is told to kill his father by Ben, Yoda and Palpatine but decides that he will not.

Anakin kills Vader and Palpatine and he was planning to kill Palpatine for decades.

Does Luke actually return in any significant way?

Which ever way you cut it the Jedi in either title is almost certainly not him.

Bingowings said:

TheBoost said:

But Luke doesn't try to get Revenge. He goes in with the plan of redeeming his father. That Palpy dies is an after effect of that goal.

You are assuming that the Jedi in the title is Luke, what if it's Anakin or the order in general?

Anakln certainly has revenge on the man who tricked him into betraying and murdering his friends on the promise of saving his wife that his new powers drove him to destroy.

The Jedi as an order were reduced from thousands to just two and you might argue that they didn't seek revenge only the restoration of galactic freedom they certainly got it anyway.

That assumption only works if you believe that Lucas did indeed have this "6-Episode storyline" fully planned out and structured when he wrote the final draft of ROTJ... which (as it's been proven time and time again) is pure and utter bulls**t.

JasonN said:

Bingowings said:

TheBoost said:

But Luke doesn't try to get Revenge. He goes in with the plan of redeeming his father. That Palpy dies is an after effect of that goal.

You are assuming that the Jedi in the title is Luke, what if it's Anakin or the order in general?

Anakln certainly has revenge on the man who tricked him into betraying and murdering his friends on the promise of saving his wife that his new powers drove him to destroy.

The Jedi as an order were reduced from thousands to just two and you might argue that they didn't seek revenge only the restoration of galactic freedom they certainly got it anyway.

That assumption only works if you believe that Lucas did indeed have this "6-Episode storyline" fully planned out and structured when he wrote the final draft of ROTJ... which (as it's been proven time and time again) is pure and utter bulls**t.

There is only one assumption in the this chain of posts (that Luke is the Jedi in the titles Revenge or Return Of The Jedi) which is almost certainly a false one (the two returns of Luke, to Tatooine and to Dagobah, aren't significant enough to be the object of the title and Luke does not achieve, nor seek revenge).

The Jedi order possibly returns (though we see no on screen evidence) and does achieve revenge, though it may be argued it doesn't seek it.

The Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker both returns (from being lost in the Darth Vader personna) and achieves a revenge he actively sort.

And none of these deductions require even looking at the prequel trilogy (though looking at them would make the Jedi Order seem more likely to be one to seek revenge than George Lucas would protest). They certainly do not hinge on the six part saga being pre-planned as delivered.

Bingowings said:

The Jedi order possibly returns (though we see no on screen evidence) and does achieve revenge, though it may be argued it doesn't seek it.

The Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker both returns (from being lost in the Darth Vader personna) and achieves a revenge he actively sort.

Ok, the "Jedi" part I can maybe-kinda understand (though I still think revenge is outside of their ideals), but for the Anakin part, I must ask "He's getting revenge for what reason?"

All that we ever learn in the OT is that he was once a good man who was seduced by the Dark Side and turned on the Jedi Knights - there is no mention of him ever being seduced, manipulated, or tricked into the Dark Side by the Emperor personally or that he ever felt anger/remorse/sadness over his betray of the Jedi until he saw his son being attacked by the Emperor.

Bingowings said:

And none of these deductions require even looking at the prequel trilogy (though looking at them would make the Jedi Order seem more likely to be one to seek revenge than George Lucas would protest). They certainly do not hinge on the six part saga being pre-planned as delivered.

Yet you're specifically referencing the PT as a possible explanation to Vader's actions in ROTJ as a reason for him seeking revenge:

Bingowings said:

Anakln certainly has revenge on the man who tricked him into betraying and murdering his friends on the promise of saving his wife that his new powers drove him to destroy.

The Jedi as an order were reduced from thousands to just two and you might argue that they didn't seek revenge only the restoration of galactic freedom they certainly got it anyway....

.... Anakin kills Vader and Palpatine and he was planning to kill Palpatine for decades.

Regardless of who the Jedi in the title refers to, Revenge is  a conscious act, requiring intent. No one has that intent. One cant accidentally take revenge on someone.

TheBoost said:

Regardless of who the Jedi in the title refers to, Revenge is  a conscious act, requiring intent. No one has that intent. One cant accidentally take revenge on someone.

OK, then how exactly do the Jedi return?

DarthBo said:

TheBoost said:

Regardless of who the Jedi in the title refers to, Revenge is  a conscious act, requiring intent. No one has that intent. One cant accidentally take revenge on someone.

OK, then how exactly do the Jedi return?

 I dunno. Luke had his ass beat down in ESB and he returned. Vader at one point stopped being a jedi, and apparently returned to being a jedi. It can be implyed that perhaps Luke restarts the Jedi order, or by the very act of confronting Vader he becomes a Jedi, hence the extinct Jedi return.

TheBoost said:

Regardless of who the Jedi in the title refers to, Revenge is  a conscious act, requiring intent. No one has that intent. One cant accidentally take revenge on someone.

 I dunno. Luke had his ass beat down in ESB and he returned. Vader at one point stopped being a jedi, and apparently returned to being a jedi. It can be implyed that perhaps Luke restarts the Jedi order, or by the very act of confronting Vader he becomes a Jedi, hence the extinct Jedi return.

The word can refer to both the active seeking of retribution and the achievement of retribution.

Retribution was achieved regardless of it being sought or not so it can still be described as revenge.

It wasn't achieved by accident (in the sense of "Whoops! What a mishap! My actions have caused someone who has defeated me before to suffer a fatal fall"), it was not necessarily an outcome that was directly sought. Ben and Yoda wanted Vader and Palpatine to be removed from power and this was achieved in the form of a retributive outcome.

Going by the criteria you use all episodes of the saga after TPM could be called "Return Of The Astrodroid" ;-)

JasonN said:

Bingowings said:

The Jedi order possibly returns (though we see no on screen evidence) and does achieve revenge, though it may be argued it doesn't seek it.

The Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker both returns (from being lost in the Darth Vader personna) and achieves a revenge he actively sort.

 

Ok, the "Jedi" part I can maybe-kinda understand (though I still think revenge is outside of their ideals), but for the Anakin part, I must ask "He's getting revenge for what reason?"

All that we ever learn in the OT is that he was once a good man who was seduced by the Dark Side and turned on the Jedi Knights - there is no mention of him ever being seduced, manipulated, or tricked into the Dark Side by the Emperor personally or that he ever felt anger/remorse/sadness over his betray of the Jedi until he saw his son being attacked by the Emperor.

Bingowings said:

And none of these deductions require even looking at the prequel trilogy (though looking at them would make the Jedi Order seem more likely to be one to seek revenge than George Lucas would protest). They certainly do not hinge on the six part saga being pre-planned as delivered.

Yet you're specifically referencing the PT as a possible explanation to Vader's actions in ROTJ as a reason for him seeking revenge:

Bingowings said:

Anakln certainly has revenge on the man who tricked him into betraying and murdering his friends on the promise of saving his wife that his new powers drove him to destroy.

The Jedi as an order were reduced from thousands to just two and you might argue that they didn't seek revenge only the restoration of galactic freedom they certainly got it anyway....

.... Anakin kills Vader and Palpatine and he was planning to kill Palpatine for decades.

You have me on the reference to the prequels in my previous post but those references are not necessary to illustrate that Vader sought revenge specifically in the scene in where he kills Palpatine (something he planned to do from ESB onwards anyway) and that he achieved it.

Even in refering to the prequel trilogy the assertion doesn't require a lack of awareness of the unavoidable cobbled together nature of the six part saga as it currently stands.

If anything the attempts of the fan community to bring more structure and coherence to these films as a group is a testament to how unstructured and largely thrown together without due care most of these films were.

Hopefully the results of these discussions will lead many sets of edits (like your own) which actually feel like they were planned from the beginning.

EyeShotFirst said:

Bingowings said:

TheBoost said:

But Luke doesn't try to get Revenge. He goes in with the plan of redeeming his father. That Palpy dies is an after effect of that goal.

You are assuming that the Jedi in the title is Luke, what if it's Anakin or the order in general?

Anakln certainly has revenge on the man who tricked him into betraying and murdering his friends on the promise of saving his wife that his new powers drove him to destroy.

The Jedi as an order were reduced from thousands to just two and you might argue that they didn't seek revenge only the restoration of galactic freedom they certainly got it anyway.

Luke doesn't go in with a plan really.

He is told to kill his father by Ben, Yoda and Palpatine but decides that he will not.

Anakin kills Vader and Palpatine and he was planning to kill Palpatine for decades.

Does Luke actually return in any significant way?

Which ever way you cut it the Jedi in either title is almost certainly not him.

It is a return of jedi as a whole. Luke is the first jedi since obi wan died. SO the jedi are back. And luke is going to pass knowledge on to more jedi too.

 

I did mention that as a possibility but seeing as the film starts with the same number of Jedi and Sith as ANH and ends with just one Jedi it still doesn't make all that much sense.

To merit the title on those terms it would really require the return of the Jedi order as a identifiable significant force in the story.

As it stands the film ends with one Jedi who may train others in the future.

EyeShotFirst said:

It is a return of jedi as a whole. Luke is the first jedi since obi wan died. SO the jedi are back.

By that logic ESB should have been called Return of the Jedi.

And luke is going to pass knowledge on to more jedi too.

So the title refers to something that doesn't actually happen in the film?

well, yoda says to luke to pass on wat he's learned. if i wanted to go EU, luke found some jedi who were in hiding and he changed the code. u can have attatchments, be at any age u choose to be a jedi, and its freedom of choice. no baby snatching.

however, i see why they take the children when they're young. the first part of their training is to become detatched from others. anakin missed his mother and look wat happend to him. he slaughtered tuskens.

now, back to the topic at hand, ROTS could've been easily titled Return of the sith but revenge is an appriopiate title because there is only power involved.

return of the jedi is refering to the luke becoming a jedi and the beginning of a new order starting with him.

Bingowings said:

TheBoost said:

Regardless of who the Jedi in the title refers to, Revenge is  a conscious act, requiring intent. No one has that intent. One cant accidentally take revenge on someone.

 I dunno. Luke had his ass beat down in ESB and he returned. Vader at one point stopped being a jedi, and apparently returned to being a jedi. It can be implyed that perhaps Luke restarts the Jedi order, or by the very act of confronting Vader he becomes a Jedi, hence the extinct Jedi return.

The word can refer to both the active seeking of retribution and the achievement of retribution.

Retribution was achieved regardless of it being sought or not so it can still be described as revenge.

It wasn't achieved by accident (in the sense of "Whoops! What a mishap! My actions have caused someone who has defeated me before to suffer a fatal fall"), it was not necessarily an outcome that was directly sought. Ben and Yoda wanted Vader and Palpatine to be removed from power and this was achieved in the form of a retributive outcome.

Going by the criteria you use all episodes of the saga after TPM could be called "Return Of The Astrodroid" ;-)  

Revenge cannot happen without revenge being the express intent. Somebody hit my car in the parking lot, and their insurance paid for the damage. That was a retribuitive outcome, and yet it was not vengeance.

With a hero who is not seeking vengeance but instead redemption motivated by compassion (Luke), and a guy who kills his boss in a sudden act of desperate emotion motivated by familial love, "REVENGE of the Jedi" seems a title trying to hard to be bad-ass.

And what exactly is Vader supposedly seeking vengeance for? You need to read into some pretty murky subtext to say he acted for vengeance.

By your criteria Return of the King is VENGEANCE OF THE HOBBIT because the hero causes the downfall of a villain.

But now that you mention it, I do remember a line in ESB that supports your point.

 YODA: Be calm. At peace. Act only for defence, never attack. And get some motherf***g revenge on those punks! Kill! KILL! Terrible bloody vengeance you must sow!! Paybacks a b***h Sithies!!!

dude he's right. luke's goal was never to take revenge on the sith. all is goal was is to redeem his father. yes the thought went through his mind of just killing the emperor right there since the saber was in his grasp or force grasp i should say, he through his saber at the emperor's feet once he realized wat he was about to become. he never ran at the emperor saying, "you've succeeded your highness. I am a sith! Like my father before me!" strikes emperor down.

rcb said:

dude he's right. luke's goal was never to take revenge on the sith. all is goal was is to redeem his father. yes the thought went through his mind of just killing the emperor right there since the saber was in his grasp or force grasp i should say, he through his saber at the emperor's feet once he realized wat he was about to become. he never ran at the emperor saying, "you've succeeded your highness. I am a sith! Like my father before me!" strikes emperor down.

That's something we can all agree on. As I posted Ben, Yoda and Palpatine seem to be keen on Luke killing Vader but Luke was his own person and did the right thing which was the main inspiration for Anakin's redemption.

Bingowings said:

there was a line that was originally in the ROTJ duel that was removed or not recorded but may be reconstructed.

uke at some point said, "I will not become a slave to the Dark Side".

If this could be put back in it would underline how Vader was born a slave and has remained a slave all his life without the need for a flashback.

Oh yes. I really want this, if it can be done.

I was angry at George after ROTS for not having explored this angle more in that film whose events were suppose to mirror those in ROTJ.

DuTwan said:

Hey Adywan just wonderin, maybe we could increase the number of Ewoks in the ROTJ end battle...

...though British soldiers had guns and cannons they lost their batlle agaisnt the Zulu's that carried spears and arrows. This was achieved by the sheer numbers, so Ewoks, thousands of them lmao

Agreed. I think that some tricks need to be used to make the Ewoks victory more believable, and adding more Ewoks would certainly help.

The Ewoks should have had some skirmishes with the Imperials already, and should have built up great anger and gathered an army of ewoks from many villages from this part of Endor. The Rebels had shown up just in time to join them. The appearance of their golden god was an omen that told them that they would be victorious.

The cuteness factor of the Ewoks needs to be turned down also. Their facial expressions could become more animated to make them look more angry and fierce.

If possible, maybe some Rebels could also be added.

I don't like the idea of removing too much though. The drama in the battle relies on the battle going bad for the Rebels on several fronts at once (shield still up, ambush, the emperor revealing his plan) and then turning.

rcb said:

the thing is, since i'm so use to hearing this line, is that mon mothma said the data was brought to them by bothan spy's. its too hard to imagine bobba doing it, kinda corny. hey, if u wanna scene of him leaving, go ahead.

Noooo.. Have you not read about Tag and Bink? Sheesh .... ;)

Mon Mothma said that "Manny Both-Hanz" died to bring the information. Manuel Both-Hanz was killed by Boba Fett (who was wearing only his underwear at the time) who missed when he was trying to hit Tag and Bink, so in a way, yes, Boo-Boo was involved.

;p