Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 320

Just to be clear, in case there is confusion, I'm not saying the Emperor's actions are contradictory within the film.  I think he approaches the situation incorrectly in how he approaches luke....but his actions are fairly straightforward.  When I said they were contradictory I was referring to the idea of him convincing luke to turn evil by convincing him it was for the greater good somehow.

Vladius said:

Well, if he tried to do it that way in the open, it would make him look weak. A large part of persuading someone is appearing confident and powerful to them. If the Emperor started talking about friendship and compassion and serving the greater good, it would be even more out of character for someone who's pure evil. He understands the complexities of the situation without having to acknowledge them. That's what makes him the manipulator who's in control.

He doesn't have to play it like that though.  The idea isn't necessarily to convince Luke that he, the emperor, is a good man.  The idea is to muddle up the idea of what is right and wrong and find a way to convince Luke to give in, or even just pretend to give in just a little, to try and do a greater good.  Palpatine knows this game well enough that he knows if he can get Luke to play along long enough he'll lose himself before he even realizes it....but he has to get him to make that choice.

The idea of Palpatine offering to spare the rebels or, at least, his friends if he plays along does this without what you're saying both because it plays to luke's desire to protect them, and because it very clearly and concretely asserts the emperor's dominance over him should he choose to play ball.

I actually wonder now if this could be established in the movie using footage from the prequels

Vladius said:

Another problem with him telling Luke to do a little evil to serve the greater good is that it's not really that evil, either way, to kill the Emperor. He would be doing everybody a service, and doing his job as a military commander. It's just a straightforward good action that can be done for the wrong reasons. The point is what happens afterwards - if he does it in anger, then he will turn to the dark side, so he has to hide and steady himself until he can confront them properly for the right reasons.

That's kind of my point though.  The actual act of killing the emperor isn't what's evil, but the mindset in which it's done.  I feel it undercuts the tension of the scene and of Luke's "choice" because the "choice" isn't really that complicated.  Release your anger and turn to the darkside.....or.....don't.

Yes, cleary he will be emotionally compromised at this point and I can certainly see him losing control for the moment that he does....but there is ultimately no doubt what choice he will make because the choice is ultimately obvious.  A single moment of anger and rage cannot define a persons path so completely...and if it is possibly for that to be the case it makes for a shallow story IMHO.

Even Anakin, rushed as his darkside turn certainly was, had more complexity then JUST his massacre of the sand people.

Again...I appreciate this interpretation and If that's how you feel I can definitely understand the nonissue of whether or not there was a chance Luke could turn.  It's fairly inconsequential if that's how you feel about it.  Again, however, I do not share it.

What I dislike about this interpretation is that I feel it does an injustice to the emperor and mcdiarmid's performance.  What I always took away from his performance was how unbelievably confident he was throughout the entire run of the movie.  Every single scene with him he seems practically omniscient, every single piece of the world moving just as he expects it too, everything proceeding as planned....except for three times.  The first is obvious.  The second is his surprise at luke's arrival on endor.  And the third:

 "You've failed your highness.  I am a Jedi....like my father before me."

"..........so be it......Jedi."

That moment is so powerful because you can see palpatine's huge incredible machinations and plans crumbling on his face...in realization that the one thing he never foresaw happening just did.....Luke chose the right path.  He bet the farm on luke...and he lost.

.....at least that's how I always saw it.....

Mrebo said:

Then his overconfidence was truly his weakness!

To me, the story completely validated his performance. It wasn't simply that he wasn't smart enough, nor that the Jedi were clouding his Force powers, it's that he was so unbelievably confident and had gotten to a point that he was simply out of touch with his own ability to persuade.

Clearly his overconfidence is his weakness to me....

...but how can that be if he doesn't even ultimately care whether or not he can turn Luke?  Not much confidence in that.  I guess you can say that he's just overconfident in his control of vader....but that makes his realization less poignant to me.

I agree with most of that statement, except when Luke cuts off Vaders hand it looks to me as though he sees what he is becoming by using his anger. I do not see what you see when you say he can see that the light side is stronger.

But that is your opinion and I respect that.

Alright, so that's your opinion, we can't change your opinion, but how is any of this improved with blatantly obvious Lucas-league yellow sith eyes?

Vladius said:

Alright, so that's your opinion, we can't change your opinion, but how is any of this improved with blatantly obvious Lucas-league yellow sith eyes?

Well at the very least it provides a visual indicator to how close Luke is to the edge of complete darkness, which should not be underestimated in a visually oriented medium, and helps to intensify the moment.

It also clearly defines that yes, he is close to the darkside.  Unnecessary?  Perhaps, but there are definitely different interpretations of that scene based on the comments made in the past two pages that suggest some people don't think he is close to turning at all in the first place.

To be quite honest i'm more on the fence when it comes to this idea.  I don't think it's a horrible idea at all....but i'm not gung ho about it either.  I love the idea of the force having a corrupting effect on a person's visage, particularly their eyes, but i'm still kind of wishy washy on them being so immediate rather than something that happens after years of use.

The past few pages of discussion have gotten me far more interested in the subplot I was discussing actually.

That's like shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it. Having yellow eyes is an effect, not a cause. If you don't address or don't like the causes then it doesn't make any sense.

It's a visually oriented medium, right, but that doesn't mean you need a cue. Yellow eyes would be redundant because Mark Hamill's expressions say it all.

I was watching ROTJ on Blu-ray the other day, and a thought occurred to me during the Rancor scene. If Luke is a Jedi, why doesn't he use the force shut the door, or even just push the button? Now I think the scene is classic, so I wouldn't want it removed, but would it be possible to have Luke shut the door without a rock?

perhaps he just uses the force to keep the door shut and just wait it out.... or levitate and just awkwardly stare jabba down....

SSWR had a similar idea once, but enstead luke used the force to throw a skull to hit the button.

Vladius said:

That's like shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it. Having yellow eyes is an effect, not a cause. If you don't address or don't like the causes then it doesn't make any sense.

It's a visually oriented medium, right, but that doesn't mean you need a cue. Yellow eyes would be redundant because Mark Hamill's expressions say it all.

I think there's a misunderstanding on where I'm coming from here.

The problem I have with the scene is not its intention.  I think it's good idea and great part of the story that this scene represents Luke's final temptation, and concludes with him coming just short of the edge, and coming back right before he goes too far.  I don't want to change that or downplay that at all.

It's the logic of the events leading up to that moment that I have an issue with (that and maybe the choreography, but that's a separate issue), but my solution would never be to change the intent of the scene (as I interpret it of course).  A cop-out they may be, but Sith eyes exist in episode III to remove any doubts and give clarification that yep...he's evil all right.  I think it's fair to criticize it as somewhat lazy, but part of me feels like Luke could benefit from that given how shaky his motivations are.

I never said it , on its own, would fix the issues I have with the scene, and I am on the fence about them.  I just didn't think they were a horrible idea because I think the scene needs tweaking, and I still feel that way.

Sith Eyes may not be the answer, but Mark Hamill's expressions just don't "say it all" to me, and there are apparently even interpretations of the scene where he's not close to the darkside at all.

Now onto another note:

I would LOVE to hear some radical ideas for this scene.....because I had the exact same thought watching it the other day.  A lot of this has to do with how powerful we've come to percieve Jedi as being over the years through the PT and even the EU....but Luke seems so helpless in this whole sequence to me for a Jedi, and it's kind of a weak conclusion to be quite honest.

Having him use the force to throw the rock is a definite improvement, but even that's kind of suspect.  Would hitting it with a rock even do that logically?  Maybe it would be better if the switch was ignored completely and he used the force to bring the entire gate itself crashing down without it?

It would make more sense if the switch was beyond the reach of anyone in the area and Luke used the Force to propel the skull beyond the barrier and hit the switch (Maul uses practically the same trick in TPM and it one of his few subtle moves).

It could then come down lightning fast like the Death Star door in ANH, the Cloud City gate in ESB and the Palace door in TPM.

While Luke could probably use the Force to bring the door down directly (Yoda does lift a whole fighter in ESB) it would be showy in a Count Dooku sense especially when there is a door switch to hand.

timdiggerm said:

All these accusation of Lucas using Sith Eyes because he's lazy or whatever smell like Lucas-bashing for the sake of Lucas-bashing, a trap these boards fall into all too often.

Sith Eyes were used in ROTS because they look cool.

You may say they look stupid, but you're also potentially blinded by your intense PT/Lucas-hatred. They look cool, so they put them in. To think that the audience would not understand that Anakin is evil after he killed Jedi "Younglings" is absurd, and it's completely unnecessary to accuse Lucas of that.

Or maybe people who type that they look stupid, don't make sense etc mean what they say???

Actually the accusation of laziness was originally stated by an anti sith eye guy.  I agree with him that they are kind of lazy as a way to designate a characters emotional state and alignment....except I also think they work.

I think i'm done arguing the point in any case both because i'm just reiterating what I've already stated several times, and I'm not really gung ho about it one way or the other.

I think overall i'd be satisfied if it was just changed to a force thrown rock/skull into the switch rather than a physical throw ala Darth Maul....but I would like to point out that while plenty of doors shut closed pretty fast in star wars, they tend to open pretty fast as well, and the Rancor's gate opens very slow and deliberately.
I admit it's really nitpicky and it's hardly a deal breaker, but you do kind of have to wonder if smashing the panel like that would really release a doorway like that, as a opposed to just making it close.  That's why I thought Luke using the force to break it's locks and pull it down my work better...but if the consensus is that it's too overblown then the keeping the smashed panel is fine.

Just throwing it out there...but does anybody else have an issue with how the sequence plays out?  Maybe it is just me, but while Luke doesn't have a whole lot of options (especially without his lightsaber), I really feel like there's got to be a better way for him to handle the situation then hiding under a rock and shoving a bone in the things mouth.  Lol, maybe I've just gotten too used to doing this in more recent days:

Oh snap

It opens slowly on one side (for dramatic effect, too scare Jabba victims) but for safety sake it would make sense to have a fast shut on the other side (so the Rancor keeper doesn't get stomped or eaten when he is cleaning out the Rancor pit).

Maul does use the Force to pick up an object on the hanger floor and hit the door switch doesn't he?

Oh please don't tell me I've jumped universes again...I do hate it when that happens.

 

Bingowings said:

It opens slowly on one side (for dramatic effect, too scare Jabba victims) but for safety sake it would make sense to have a fast shut on the other side (so the Rancor keeper doesn't get stomped or eaten when he is cleaning out the Rancor pit).

Granted, I think it's a special edition change, so I'm not sure whether people even want to acknowledge it....but don't we see the door closing fairly slowly after oola is eaten?

I don't know.....of my issues with ROTJ this is definitely on the minor end so I guess the force throw is well enough.  I have bigger issues with that sequence anyway.

Monroville said:

Keep in mind Vader doesn't throw anything at the carbonite control lever when Luke falls into the carbonite pit (so if Vader is shown flipping a switch with the force, can't Luke do it after a few years of practice?).

I could see deleting the rock/skull/whatever, show Luke pointing at the door with a nice "green to red" or just set of light switches to indicate it's closing, and then show the door closing at an increased rate of speed (slow at first, then speeding up and slamming down on the Rancor's head).  Even implying Luke is not even activating the switch, but using the force to bring the door down would add to Luke's cred as a near-master.

My thoughts exactly.

But he isn't even a near Master, even if you added a year or so onto his training by moving Yoda's death to the beginning of ROTJ he has still had a crash course to becoming a near Knight.

Bingowings said:

But he isn't even a near Master, even if you added a year or so onto his training by moving Yoda's death to the beginning of ROTJ he has still had a crash course to becoming a near Knight.

True, I missed that Monroville said that, although the argument still remains. If Luke could pull a lightsaber with no formal training, I think he can push a button with minimal training.