Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 32

 But Qui Gon wanted to see the force put back into balance, surely he'd want to be there to see the one who helped with this.

Well if Qui Gon deserves to be there, Mace should be there too. But having them there seems redicules to me. If I were Qui Gon's ghost, I wouldn't show up on some Ewok planet just to smile at Luke, especially since I would have never met him.

Luke's thoughts through all of this:

"Oh, look it's my mentor, Obi-Wan!"

"And Yoda, my teacher!"

"And that's what Dad would have looked like if not for lava (and Obi-Wan)!  I love you, Dad."

...

"Who the hell is that with the long hair?"

Speaking of Anakin, Should the scar on his eye be added to Shaw's face? I think so.

I say yes, in both instances (the Shaw ghost WHICH SHOULD BE RESTORED and Vader's unmasking).

Oh, and I'm also against adding Qui-Gon or any other PT Jedi to the ROTJ ghosts.  Just my two cents on that.

The character of Qui Gon maybe deserves to be at the end of ROTJ, it's a good idea on paper, but really don't think it would work on the screen. You know, Luke smiling whereas it should look wondering who the hell is that new guy.

Maybe after Luke turned to his friends we can add Qui-Gon in the back of the ghosts last shot. But all in all, I don't think I'd want to see this.

The only way it could work is if you kept the important trio at the front and had ranks of Jedi appear behind them (thousands) but with the prominant prequel Jedi nearer to the front (a bit like the ghost army in Return Of The King).

That could work as a story detail because now Luke can call on the collective wisdom of all the Jedi that have gone before him but it might look very messy on screen and I'm pretty sure the story doesn't need it.

The Force is now in balance because there is just a master and an apprentice (which is why I still think if Luke trained his sister things would turn nasty in the Episode VII GL refuses to make) if Luke is getting permanant backup from thousands of dead Jedi that throws the balance off again to the light side (not unless they pinch another idea from Dune and have Luke/Leia be able to see dead Sith as well like Alia's ancestoral memories bringing back the Baron Harkhonnen).

In TPM there are thousands of Jedi and two Sith, a master and an apprentice, at the end of ROTS there are two Jedi and two Sith both master and apprentice. In ANH Ben takes an apprentice and Vader corrects the balance by removing Ben. In ROTJ Yoda dies correcting the balance Vader kills Palpatine but by returning to the lightside he has unbalanced the force again so he dies as well leaving just Luke to begin from scratch.

They could be just be turning up to say goodbye but that buggers up the line from Obi-wan, "Yoda will alway be with you".

doubleofive said:

Adding Hayden to RotJ was already the best definition of "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should."  Adding thousands of other Jedi would change the ending of RotJ significantly and make it look less like "the redemption of Anakin Skywalker" and more like "the redemption of Jedi as a whole", which is not the point of the saga by any definition.

The Jedi are as much to blame for the rise of Palpatine as anyone else, in the hands of a better actor than Hayden we could see Anakin had a point. He was expected to be the chosen one but was never trusted and the Jedi seemed to go out of their way to make mountains out of the bumps in his character (would it have hurt to let Anakin check up on his mother once in a while, especially if he is getting disturbing premonitions about her fate?).

The Senate were just as bad (they get hung up about the Seperatists but never bothered about the human slavery on their doorstep before all that kicked off in fact they created a whole army of slaves to fight in their wars which bit them back when Palpatine created the Empire).

This adds to the lack of need for more Jedi to turn up in the end, the old order had to pass and Anakin/Vader had to fall to pull it down and be redeemed to allow it to grow again.

DarkFather said:

If Anakin had been allowed to visit his mother and keep better track of her, I doubt he would have ever turned to the dark side. The only reason he reacted so desperately in reaction to the premonitions he was having about Padme's childbirth death, was because he already had the experience of forseeing his mother's death, which came true.

I guess the Jedi went way out of their way to make sure Anakin never maintained emotional attachments, and were afraid that if he saw his mother, all of their work in training him would be undone.

Exactly the point I was making, their inflexible handling of Anakin caused everything they feared might happen with him to happen.

darthmunky said:

Well if Qui Gon deserves to be there, Mace should be there too. But having them there seems redicules to me. If I were Qui Gon's ghost, I wouldn't show up on some Ewok planet just to smile at Luke, especially since I would have never met him.

 Even though I'm against adding anyone, Qui Gon at least discovered the secret of maintaing his identity in the force. Mace died without learning that secret. Obi and Yoda went and spent a lot of time mastering it.

Remember, Vader had never heard of it in "Star Wars." Obi had to explain that 'should you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.'  Vader didn't respond "I know all about that. Mace Windu's force ghost has been following me around for years calling me all sorts of rude names."

darthmunky said:

Speaking of Anakin, Should the scar on his eye be added to Shaw's face? I think so.

 That seems like a nice, subtle way to tie the trilogies together. I wouldn't mind it at all.

DarkFather said:

If Anakin had been allowed to visit his mother and keep better track of her, I doubt he would have ever turned to the dark side. The only reason he reacted so desperately in reaction to the premonitions he was having about Padme's childbirth death, was because he already had the experience of forseeing his mother's death, which came true.

 So, if Anakin had been alowed to check up on his mum, he would have been just fine if say, she was hit by a bus, or died of the plague, or eating a bad mushroom? Then he would have just sighed and said 'such is the way of life and death and the Force.' Or would he have gone all lightsaber-crazy on the busdriver?

Or if he did save her, would continuing fear for his mother lead to another premonition, then another, then another.

"I don't want things to change." he said as a kid. If he saved her, would he come to beleive that he could control everything, since it's his actions alone that granted his beloved mother life? Would he need more control, and more power to protect all the people he loved? Would his obsessive fear of loss be lessened by saving his mother one time? I don't think it would.

TheBoost said:

DarkFather said:

If Anakin had been allowed to visit his mother and keep better track of her, I doubt he would have ever turned to the dark side. The only reason he reacted so desperately in reaction to the premonitions he was having about Padme's childbirth death, was because he already had the experience of forseeing his mother's death, which came true.

 

 So, if Anakin had been alowed to check up on his mum, he would have been just fine if say, she was hit by a bus, or died of the plague, or eating a bad mushroom? Then he would have just sighed and said 'such is the way of life and death and the Force.' Or would he have gone all lightsaber-crazy on the busdriver?

Or if he did save her, would continuing fear for his mother lead to another premonition, then another, then another.

"I don't want things to change." he said as a kid. If he saved her, would he come to beleive that he could control everything, since it's his actions alone that granted his beloved mother life? Would he need more control, and more power to protect all the people he loved? Would his obsessive fear of loss be lessened by saving his mother one time? I don't think it would.

I think it was the manner of his mother's death that drove him over that edge, she had been kidnapped humilated, re-enslaved (after a brief period of happiness and freedom), something he could have prevented if he wasn't being held back by the Jedi code of detachment. If she had died of an incurable illness or old age I think he could have coped with it (though he would still have wanted to be by her side but I doubt if Jedi get compassionate leave).

If he wasn't kept away from his mother he may have grown up to be less clingy with Padme too but in a cosmic sense Anakin had to become Vader or the Republic would have remained in the corrupt state that Sidious found and worked on (and that includes the Jedi who had become detached to the point of near indolence).

"Can you help him?"
"I don't know. I didn't actually come here to free slaves."

"Then get the hell out of my kitchen and take your stupid frog/snail/racial stereotype friend with you. Jedi! I give them shelter, I give them food and all they want is to steal my kid and brainwash him into their funky wizard ways"

If the new Republic and the new Jedi Order remained as closed to justice as the old, Endor would be a hollow victory. 

You could always have Qui-Gon appear over Obi's shoulder after Luke looks away in a second shot.

And why not replace both Hayden and Shaw with Dave Prowse while you're at it!?

... No I am not serious.

doubleofive said:

I don't think Shaw or Hayden need to morph either way.  Neither one of them will be recognizable to Luke anyway and the audience should assume he aged as opposed to wondering why Anakin got to keep his young body in the afterlife and Obi-wan has to be old.

Unless everyone morphs from their old versions to their Episode III versions.  That sounds like something Lucas would have done, and I'm honestly surprised he didn't. 

Again, I think adding Qui-Gon is adding things for the sake of adding them.  If LUCAS showed enough restraint not to do it, I think we should also.

 

He didn't show any restraint when he added Hayden.