Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 318

sans_fi said:

Doesnt make much sense... First of all, he also said "Once more the Sith will ruuuuule the galaxy"
Secondly, doesnt make much sense to imbred the clones with such order "if i die, all the clones should die with me". Its like saying "If I die, i dont want the bad guys to keep ruling anymore, just leave the galaxy to the good guys" Im guessing even if he dies he prefers the galaxy to be ruled by a Sith than by a good guy.

Well yeah, he'd prefer that....but when he dies, that's not exactly an option.  He has no heirs.  He never intended for Vader to succeed him after the events of ROTS, and he was counting on turning Luke....which didn't work out so well for him.

I feel like Palpatine almost wouldn't even care to make a distinction between a lesser imperial officer ruling and the republic returning.  To him....it's all or nothing.  Either he himself and/or the sith have absolute power....or it's meaningless to him.

I don't know how I feel about turning the celebration scenes into just riots though and implying that more fighting has to happen though.....cause I feel like that's kind of a sad note to end the series on.

Just having fun with After Effects: the emperor's throne room in the Imperial palace in Coruscant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BP5x5XZQPQ

Just put this in the OT deleted scenes discussion thread, but I want to include it hear, though it repeats an idea I'd already mentioned here before.

 The esteemed darth_ender said:

I've mentioned this in the ROTJ wishlist thread, but perhaps the Ewok attack could take place, the Rebels manage to push ahead into the bunker (it wouldn't be too hard to make Han look like he successfully hotwires the door), while the Ewoks distract Imperial troops.  Footage from Battle for Endor could show more Ewok deaths.  The Rebel commando team gets into the bunker, has their shootout, places their charges while the battle continues to rage outside.  The generator control room is destroyed, and perhaps even small explosions shown on the dish signify it no longer works, though it wouldn't be as dramatic.  Then the space battle continues with, "The shield is down!"  My only question is how could you show the commandos escaping?  Hmmm...maybe Han could still charge out of the bunker yelling, "Move!" with added laser fire going on behind him.  After the generator blows (keep the whole big explosion in this scenario), one might see several storm troopers get caught in the blast, then show several scenes that were before removed of stormtroopers fleeing and being further ambushed by the Ewoks, and Chewie hijacks the AT-ST and begins his rampage.  This might be hard to pull off as far as the emotional flow, but some good music changes might alter the lightheated fun feeling of beating the stormtroopers over the head with little rocks.  It's far more believable to see Imperial troops being defeated when they are disorganized and panicked due to the loss of their shield generator.

Pardon the realtime brainstorming/typing.  It seems like a worthy idea, and it incorporates and in fact heavily relies on the deleted bunker scene, so it still fits okay in this thread.

To expand upon the idea, and also repeating something I had mentioned before in this thread, showing the various Rebel pilots and Falcon gunners would expand the battle nicely (probably needing a few more ship shots, but I understand Adywan has plans for this, though that might take some waiting).  With the expanded space battle, further attention could be taken off the Ewoks and leave more to the imagination about the struggle going on at the Battle of Shield Bunker Hill.  The audience would surmise more death and carnage has taken place and more good guys fell by the way side.  Besides, who wouldn't want to see a grander space battle?  It seems many are disappointed that the final version simply wasn't big enough.

I suggested something similar a little while back.

I know Ady does not want this in his edit , but I alway thought it would be cool if Luke had Sith eyes until he takes that deep breathe and tosses his saber away.

By "always" you mean since it was stated that normal people also get yellow eyes when they are mad in Episode III?

If you want to get into the semantics of things then yes.

to be honest, I'd rather Ady got rid of all traces of 'Sith Eyes' in the prequals,  it was a cheap and lazy plot device to try and make Anakin's TURN more convincing.  The acting wasn't quite there, neither was the dialogue and his motivation wasn't entirely convincing "LIGHTBULB"  I Know lets give him crazy glowing eyes so that the audience knows he's officially bad!

I'm with Buddy on this one......it was cheap and silly. A ham-fisted addition to poor story and character direction.

buddy-x-wing said:

to be honest, I'd rather Ady got rid of all traces of 'Sith Eyes' in the prequals,  it was a cheap and lazy plot device to try and make Anakin's TURN more convincing.  The acting wasn't quite there, neither was the dialogue and his motivation wasn't entirely convincing "LIGHTBULB"  I Know lets give him crazy glowing eyes so that the audience knows he's officially bad!

I think it's a fair and valid argument to say that the whole sith eye concept is lazy....but as an alternate perspective; film is a visually oriented medium after all, and lazy or not I do think it works in its intention....which is to make Anakin look more convincingly evil and provide a visual cue at his dark state.

Conversely.....and I know this won't make me any friends.....Luke's 'near turn' has always felt really flat to me.  I won't deny that him charging vader in anger a few moments prior is one of the most dramatic moments in the movies, especially with John Williams haunting music in the background....but the implication of it has always left me scratching my head.

Anakin at least had an established reason for wanting to become the emperor's apprentice....but luke has no such motivation.  It's never felt believable to me that he was really that close to falling to the darkside. There are subplots which could have been established to give him more motivation.....but none of them were ever introduced.  Giving him sith eyes might be a copout......but I don't think it's a horrible idea.

Sepharih said:

 

Anakin at least had an established reason for wanting to become the emperor's apprentice....but luke has no such motivation. There are subplots which could have been established to give him more motivation.....

 Like threatening to turn his sister to the dark side?

Actually it's one of the best parts of the movies ever. There's plenty of lead up - Yoda tells Luke not to underestimate the powers of the Emperor, Luke knows he has to confront Vader, the Emperor shows Luke that the rebels are losing and that he can save them by turning, he draws attention to Luke's weapon, both the Emperor and Vader taunt and persuade and attack him the whole time, and finally, Vader goes for where he is most vulnerable, with his care for his family. It's perfect as it is, don't cheapen it with Lucas-level obviousness.

muddyknees2000 said:

Sepharih said:

 

Anakin at least had an established reason for wanting to become the emperor's apprentice....but luke has no such motivation. There are subplots which could have been established to give him more motivation.....

 Like threatening to turn his sister to the dark side?

Again, i get him lashing out at Vader in anger because of that line and it's extremely dramatic...but that still doesn't exactly give him reason to serve the emperor after the fact....especially considering she's on the frontlines of battle...and it's not even made clear that vader and/or the emperor know who she is.

Its never said that once turned he'd serve the emperor. (thats the emperors plan....but who's to say what would happen) He's wild with anger...for all we know he could have slayed Vader, then turned on the emperor and taken all the power for himself. Its all possibilities at that point.

muddyknees2000 said:

Its never said that once turned he'd serve the emperor. (thats the emperors plan....but who's to say what would happen) He's wild with anger...for all we know he could have slayed Vader, then turned on the emperor and taken all the power for himself. Its all possibilities at that point.

Ok, fine, you can argue that.....but even if that is the case it feels about as much like a switch getting flipped as Anakin's turn did to me.  Obviously, of course, he did not turn....but i've never felt any tension in that scene to be honest.

 

Vladius said:

...the Emperor shows Luke that the rebels are losing and that he can save them by turning,

I disagree....and if that is what he's saying it's not well established.  The only thing he plays on is getting luke to strike him down in anger....when does he imply that if he turns he can spare the rebels?

 Were you asleep when he mentioned how badly the rebels were losing, "see for yourself," and then told Luke, multiple times, to take his weapon and kill him?

Vladius said:

 

Vladius said:

...the Emperor shows Luke that the rebels are losing and that he can save them by turning,

I disagree....and if that is what he's saying it's not well established.  The only thing he plays on is getting luke to strike him down in anger....when does he imply that if he turns he can spare the rebels?

 

 Were you asleep when he mentioned how badly the rebels were losing, "see for yourself," and then told Luke, multiple times, to take his weapon and kill him?

...did you read my post?

The only thing he does is tell luke to strike him down in VENGANCE for what he has done.  He even flat out tells Luke "strike me down, and your Journey towards the darkside will be complete!!!"

Where in that does he say "be my servant and I will spare your friends".  Or "learn my power, surpass me....power to save your friends."

Now that WOULD have made his close turn far more convincing....but that's not the direction they went.

Sepharih said:

Vladius said:

 

Vladius said:

...the Emperor shows Luke that the rebels are losing and that he can save them by turning,

I disagree....and if that is what he's saying it's not well established.  The only thing he plays on is getting luke to strike him down in anger....when does he imply that if he turns he can spare the rebels?

 

 Were you asleep when he mentioned how badly the rebels were losing, "see for yourself," and then told Luke, multiple times, to take his weapon and kill him?

 

...did you read my post?

 

The only thing he does is tell luke to strike him down in VENGANCE for what he has done.  He even flat out tells Luke "strike me down, and your Journey towards the darkside will be complete!!!"

Where in that does he say "be my servant and I will spare your friends".  Or "learn my power, surpass me....power to save your friends."

 

Now that WOULD have made his close turn far more convincing....but that's not the direction they went.

 No, it's just more subtle. Can't the audience figure it out on their own that killing the Emperor is part of the victory, and leads to the celebration across the galaxy later on? Just like how people with the Force being angry does not mean they suddenly get yellow eyes, but it's still clear that they're angry and that the Force intensifies their feelings.

He's persuading him through multiple angles - through vengeance and anger, through exploiting his compassion ("they do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor,") through his desire for power.

You're acting like all these things come out of left field with no precedent, when Obi Wan and Yoda told Luke already. They told him to confront Vader, something he already struggled with - now that he has a reason to be angry at Vader, he snaps. He had to hide in order to avoid fighting him. You can see the concern and stress on his face, he feels overwhelmed psychologically from the weight of the Emperor and Vader tempting him, like Frodo with the Ring. It's clearly implied that even if there is no specific goal that Luke would achieve, the Emperor's powers of persuasion are powerful enough to defy reason.

Vladius said:

 No, it's just more subtle. Can't the audience figure it out on their own that killing the Emperor is part of the victory, and leads to the celebration across the galaxy later on? Just like how people with the Force being angry does not mean they suddenly get yellow eyes, but it's still clear that they're angry and that the Force intensifies their feelings.

He's persuading him through multiple angles - through vengeance and anger, through exploiting his compassion ("they do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor,") through his desire for power.

You're acting like all these things come out of left field with no precedent, when Obi Wan and Yoda told Luke already. They told him to confront Vader, something he already struggled with - now that he has a reason to be angry at Vader, he snaps. He had to hide in order to avoid fighting him. You can see the concern and stress on his face, he feels overwhelmed psychologically from the weight of the Emperor and Vader tempting him, like Frodo with the Ring. It's clearly implied that even if there is no specific goal that Luke would achieve, the Emperor's powers of persuasion are powerful enough to defy reason.

Sorry....but saying the emperor's powers of persuasion are powerful enough to defy reason as a way to explain lack of character motivation is 10x the cop-out of giving someone yellow eyes to indicate they're evil in my book.

It does come out of left field for me, because the fact that he's had time to steel himself and he's been told by everyone how conniving palpatine is and to not underestimate him means that palpatine needs to have a pretty big ace up his sleeve to get to him.  He does, in fact, have such an ace....but he plays it totally wrong in my view to have any reasonable tension in the scene.

He should have played up on Luke's compassion towards his friends and his desire to save them (mirroring anakin's fall more), trying to convince him to give in to temptation....to do just a little evil to do a greater good.

Instead he pretty much barks about how Luke has already fallen and just doesn't realize it yet, to give into his anger towards palpatine because there is no hope left already, and to strike in vengeance and turn to darkness.

Sepharih said:

Vladius said:

 No, it's just more subtle. Can't the audience figure it out on their own that killing the Emperor is part of the victory, and leads to the celebration across the galaxy later on? Just like how people with the Force being angry does not mean they suddenly get yellow eyes, but it's still clear that they're angry and that the Force intensifies their feelings.

He's persuading him through multiple angles - through vengeance and anger, through exploiting his compassion ("they do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor,") through his desire for power.

You're acting like all these things come out of left field with no precedent, when Obi Wan and Yoda told Luke already. They told him to confront Vader, something he already struggled with - now that he has a reason to be angry at Vader, he snaps. He had to hide in order to avoid fighting him. You can see the concern and stress on his face, he feels overwhelmed psychologically from the weight of the Emperor and Vader tempting him, like Frodo with the Ring. It's clearly implied that even if there is no specific goal that Luke would achieve, the Emperor's powers of persuasion are powerful enough to defy reason.

Sorry....but saying the emperor's powers of persuasion are powerful enough to defy reason as a way to explain lack of character motivation is 10x the cop-out of giving someone yellow eyes to indicate they're evil in my book.

It does come out of left field for me, because the fact that he's had time to steel himself and he's been told by everyone how conniving palpatine is and to not underestimate him means that palpatine needs to have a pretty big ace up his sleeve to get to him.  He does, in fact, have such an ace....but he plays it totally wrong in my view to have any reasonable tension in the scene.

He should have played up on Luke's compassion towards his friends and his desire to save them (mirroring anakin's fall more), trying to convince him to give in to temptation....to do just a little evil to do a greater good.

Instead he pretty much barks about how Luke has already fallen and just doesn't realize it yet, to give into his anger towards palpatine because there is no hope left already, and to strike in vengeance and turn to darkness.

Then don't watch Star Wars I guess. (???)
Is Obi Wan tricking a storm trooper because the storm trooper is a less powerful mind 10x the cop out of him dicing them to pieces with a lightsaber? I just explained his motivations. He's confused, and stressed, and battered, and ready to snap, and he cares deeply for the fate of his friends and family.

The thing is, he does both.
He does both with Anakin, you seem to have no problems with that. He wants the power to save Padme, his love, who he fears losing, and to kill the Tusken Raiders in vengeance for his mother's sake.
Why is it wrong when it's done in a more subtle way? Luke wants the power to save his friends, who he loves, who he fears losing, and to kill Darth Vader and the Emperor out of vengeance for the ones already lost.

Vladius said:

Then don't watch Star Wars I guess. (???)
Is Obi Wan tricking a storm trooper because the storm trooper is a less powerful mind 10x the cop out of him dicing them to pieces with a lightsaber?

The thing is, he does both.
He does both with Anakin, you seem to have no problems with that. He wants the power to save Padme, his love, who he fears losing, and to kill the Tusken Raiders in vengeance for his mother's sake.
Why is it wrong when it's done in a more subtle way? Luke wants the power to save his friends, who he loves, who he fears losing, and to kill Darth Vader and the Emperor out of vengeance for the ones already lost.

I do have problems with Anakin's turn.  My problem with Luke's near turn is that while it has a decent amount of buildup and drama.....the motivation is not clear and therefore kills tension.  My problem with Anakin's turn is that his motivation makes sense (within the context of the story mind you)....but it's far too sudden and too much like a switch going off that it hurts the story.

Tricking a stormtrooper is a plot device/character development for obi-wan kenobi.  The problem I have isn't that it disobeys the rules of the universe, but that explaining Luke/Anakin's motivation as simply the emperor's influence in the force makes for a less compelling story.

Sepharih said:

Vladius said:

Then don't watch Star Wars I guess. (???)
Is Obi Wan tricking a storm trooper because the storm trooper is a less powerful mind 10x the cop out of him dicing them to pieces with a lightsaber?

The thing is, he does both.
He does both with Anakin, you seem to have no problems with that. He wants the power to save Padme, his love, who he fears losing, and to kill the Tusken Raiders in vengeance for his mother's sake.
Why is it wrong when it's done in a more subtle way? Luke wants the power to save his friends, who he loves, who he fears losing, and to kill Darth Vader and the Emperor out of vengeance for the ones already lost.

I do have problems with Anakin's turn.  My problem with Luke's near turn is that while it has a decent amount of buildup and drama.....the motivation is not clear and therefore kills tension.  My problem with Anakin's turn is that his motivation makes sense (within the context of the story mind you)....but it's far too sudden and too much like a switch going off that it hurts the story.

Tricking a stormtrooper is a plot device/character development for obi-wan kenobi.  The problem I have isn't that it disobeys the rules of the universe, but that explaining Luke/Anakin's motivation as simply the emperor's influence in the force makes for a less compelling story.

 That's the problem, you're oversimplifying a situation that was never simple. It's partially the Emperor/Darth Vader's influence in the Force, y'know, like Yoda and Obi Wan told Luke many times over the course of both ESB and ROTJ, and partially Luke's other motivations, which the Emperor exploits.

If you want to go off of how much "tension" you feel, which is pretty arbitrary and not at all indicative of the rest of the viewing population, I think that scene is the most tense in all of them.
The point of the tension is not "oh no, Luke is going to turn to the dark side," which might be your problem. The point is that by this time there's so many things as stake, there's questions that it raises, not answers - will Darth Vader kill Luke? will Luke kill his own father? will Luke turn to the dark side? will Luke be able to save his friends? will the Emperor be able to exploit the end result of the duel?
That's why when Luke realizes what he's done, and he drops his lightsaber, and he says that he's a Jedi, it's a very triumphant moment. He refuses to let his emotions get the better of him. You're thinking of it as a "near turn" when the turn isn't the point, it's about the characters. Maybe Luke doesn't have sufficient motivation to turn! But that's irrelevant, it's that he easily could have without a decision to make on his part.

Emotions aren't about cost-benefit analysis, after all. The Dark Side is always described as "seducing" people. Unless you're enacting a fantasy in artificial conditions, do you ever want to be seduced? It's shown time after time that the Force intensifies your emotions, which is why using the Force in anger or fear or other powerful emotions leads you to the dark side. There's something supernatural about the evil in the Star Wars universe, because there's something supernatural about the Force in general.

Vladius said:

 That's the problem, you're oversimplifying a situation that was never simple. It's partially the Emperor/Darth Vader's influence in the Force, y'know, like Yoda and Obi Wan told Luke many times over the course of both ESB and ROTJ, and partially Luke's other motivations, which the Emperor exploits.

 

I'm saying that there should be more established and better developed motivations for Luke's near turn.....and you're saying that it's the emperor's power of persuasion in the force that defies rational.

How am I the one oversimplifying this?

Vladius said:

The point of the tension is not "oh no, Luke is going to turn to the dark side," which might be your problem.

What?  How is that not the case?  Sure, there's tons of things going on but that's absolutely a part of the conflict.

Sepharih said:

Vladius said:

 That's the problem, you're oversimplifying a situation that was never simple. It's partially the Emperor/Darth Vader's influence in the Force, y'know, like Yoda and Obi Wan told Luke many times over the course of both ESB and ROTJ, and partially Luke's other motivations, which the Emperor exploits.

 

I'm saying that there should be more established and better developed motivations for Luke's near turn.....and you're saying that it's the emperor's power of persuasion in the force that defies rational.

 

There are, you're not seeing them.
You think that he's turning to the dark side when he attacks Vader, he's not. He's angry at the idea that Vader will try to turn Leia, along with everything else that happened, but that's the thing that makes him actually start attacking. It's well established already that they love each other, romantically or platonically, in all three of the movies. In the same movie, Luke has rescued Leia and showed concern for her well being. There is a scene where he tells her that they're brother and sister.

His "near turn" is within the duel after he starts attacking, when he goes from participating to becoming the aggressor. This is because he is using his anger to help him succeed, which has natural consquences that are also well established. That's why he looks surprised and disturbed with himself after cutting off Vader's hand. He's realizing that he's gone farther than he intended to.