It's meant to be the size of a small moon (most moons are smaller than ours) Endor seems to be a very large moon (even larger than ours at times it seems like it's Earth sized).
There's nothing wrong with that but the if (as the EU maintains but the Ewok movies ignore) the planet it was a moon of is gone, it's no longer a moon.
By way of Wookiepedia,
According to the Star Wars: Incredible Cross-Sections fact book, the first Death Star in A New Hope was 160 kilometers in diameter. According to the Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy fact book and detailed scaling of the station in Return of the Jedi, the second Death Star was 900 kilometers in diameter. Some Expanded Universe sources state much smaller figures—120 kilometers for the first Death Star and 160 kilometers for the second—however, most of the evidence argues for the larger sizes.
-NJM
So less than a third the size of our moon at the biggest size. I'd never done the math... Still makes Endor pretty stinking huge, and still doesn't need to be a "rogue moon" without a planet to orbit.
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Wookipedia says the forest moon of Endor is nearly 5,000 km in diameter. That is stinkin' HUGE! Our own moon is somewhere around 3500 km. So, it just doesn't make sense that they made the Endor moon so large so that the Death Star is about 1/5 the size of it.
-NJM
Would keeping it 1/5 the size of Endor make the scale any more threatening? Because I'm pretty sure it's not that big to scale.
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Well, I'm just talking about perceived size, essentially. I just believe that the DS2 should appear to be more massive next to everything else in the film. For example, at the end of ESB, you see the size of the Falcon and TIE Fighters next to the Executor, and they look like insects in comparison to it. The Super Star Destroyer is obscenely gigantic next to these little ships, and you finally get that relative scale. You don't get that with the Death Star II because all we really see it properly in scale to is the Endor moon, and it doesn't look that large.
-NJM
doubleofive said:
Why did it have to be a Forest Moon anyway?
Forest Moon sounds cool, dig?
Nicholas J. Michalak said:
Well, I'm just talking about perceived size, essentially. I just believe that the DS2 should appear to be more massive next to everything else in the film. For example, at the end of ESB, you see the size of the Falcon and TIE Fighters next to the Executor, and they look like insects in comparison to it. The Super Star Destroyer is obscenely gigantic next to these little ships, and you finally get that relative scale. You don't get that with the Death Star II because all we really see it properly in scale to is the Endor moon, and it doesn't look that large.
-NJM
I completely agree with every line. Thats why i keep saying that ROTJ sucks from cinematography. thats why my mockups were meant to show and mark out the missing scale factor from ROTJ. I really imaging a shot when the battle goes even more close to the star and the ships are around the dish/eye. when the whole background is the eye ready to fire we follow b wings deploying bombs. something like a star tours shot whatever :)
-Angel
vaderios said:
Can anyone confirm if there is an actual reference that the DS had the eye in the middle?
-Angel
The design of the DS had changed in production. The matte painting above was scrapped, but it did find its way into the Star Wars Storybook.
By the time the design was changed, the matte paintings and models could be remade, but the DS plans schematics created by John Wash and other ILM'ers either were forgotten about or Lucas just decided not to worry about it.
Nicholas J. Michalak said:
I'd like for the scale between the ships and the Death Star to be more apparent. This is mainly because the DS2 is larger than the first Death Star, and if this scale is anywhere remotely accurate, the crashing of the Executor into the DS2 would be nearly inconsequential to the overall structure.
The problem is, they put the Death Star next to a moon which makes it appear quite small. And that's just a moon. Next to a full size planet, it would look terribly puny. Maybe put the Death Star larger in more of the background space battle shots to make it more ominious as if it's overshadowing everything.
-NJM
I concur, as well as change the scale of Endor/the moon of Endor (?) to be smaller as compared to the DS2 (ie all shots of it in the sky the DS2 is twice as large; all shots in orbit it is 1/4th the size of Endor/the moon of Endor).
Of course, this would be bad for M.O.E. when it blows up, unless a scene is added showing the rebels trying to escape and the Emperor orders the DS2 to go after them, thus moving it away from Endor/MOE.
Also keep in mind that if "Endor" is a gas giant like Jupiter or Saturn (or Yavin), then MOE could be Earth or Mars sized. Still, I agree that if the DS2 is twice as big as DS1, this needs to be identified in some way on screen to visually depict this (show SDs coming out of hanger bays in the equatorial trench?).
Also also, since the Executor (as pointed out in the image above) is so small, especially compared to the DS2, maybe it could crash into the superlaser dish - thus even for it's relatively small size the impact would be in a critical place. That or develop a subplot where the "fully operational battle station" never needed the MOE shield device, which was a macguffin to draw the rebels out, and the Executor drops into the "under construction" part of the DS2, which in turns opens up the DS2 shields and allows fighters to go inside.
- if the "Executor rams the super laser dish " scene is created [and the Emperor's tower is put in the dead center of the SL dish], you could create a scene where the Emperor sees the Executor heading full speed for the dish/his tower. He orders the DS2 to fire, but the Executor is too close; the beams form a cage, as the pinpoint is above the Executor, which flies between the multiple beams going above it. The Emperor's eyes get bigger as it approaches, covered in fire (ala FLASH GORDON), but it rams the inside of the dish just before hitting the Emperor's tower.
- of course, there is nothing saying that each of the individual "outer rim" dish lasers could not fire independently on separate targets (ie they can converge into one, big super laser, or each of the lasers could act as 12 "ship killer" weapons, firing on 12 separate targets at once). Modified shots of the ion cannon in EMPIRE could be used to create the effect (ie the modified "ion cannon (minus the pointy laser gun part)" shown firing long, green pulses, with a smaller version in the background to the side, as the main battle rages in the background.
- on another side note, I agree with showing the B-wings in action, to depict just how much firepower they have (as well as to showcase the new fighter) - show them raking across an SD hull or even punching holes through one. The larger Calimari ships could have gattling lasers - the Rebels have to have SOMETHING to "keep them in the fight" without getting wiped out within seconds...
- you know, here's another idea. Who has to say that when the rebels sabotage the shield generator on MOE that it has to blow up? What if the DS2 had fully functional shields and never needed the MOE shield... rebels disarm it, but DS2 still has full shields up. Executor (whether Piett turns and purposefully rams DS2, or Executor just takes too much damage from ramming fire ships and the like) plows into the beam weapon dish, inadvertently taking it out. When Lando tells everyone he is entering the DS2 and heading to the reactor, Han and co. reactivate the MOE shield generator, which protects the planet from the DS2 explosion.
Can me crazy, but I would still love to see the DS2 rake its beam through the rebel and imperial fleet, with the Emperor laughing like a madman at the sheer carnage he is creating; Piett realizes the Emperor is targeting them all (in his mad attempt to destroy the rebels) and again, not that he "becomes the good guy and sides with the rebels" but is loyal to "Rome" not the emperor (who is threatening to destroy "Rome"), thus him ordering the fleet to attack the DS2, which leads to him making the sacrifice so rebel and TIE pilots both go in to destroy the reactor (with TIEs maybe leading the way, since they have a map/GPS of the DS2 internals).
Turn the Emperor into a Nero or Caligula, where the underlings realize the guy is just plain mad and needs to be stopped, which would lead to the Endor/MOE "imperial officer reluctantly shaking hands with rebel general ala Frtiz Lang's METROPOLIS." I could buy a more benevolent Emperor/leader being elected/selected (ie Caligula being replaced by Claudius, or Constantine making Christianity the official religion of Rome after hundreds of years of persecution, or even better still, something akin to the end of FLASH GORDON - General Dodonna or Mon Motha is made the new leader of the "new republic") and the Empire retaining its physical integrity and changing in mindset from the top-down, as opposed to believing that just because the Emperor died that the entire empire is going to be toppled...
Just saying....
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
And I do have to say, and being meaning to say for a long time, that all the mock-ups on doubleofive's blog are absolutely gorgeous and stunning. Praise beyond words to everyone who worked on those.
-NJM
Nicholas J. Michalak said:
And I do have to say, and being meaning to say for a long time, that all the mock-ups on doubleofive's blog are absolutely gorgeous and stunning. Praise beyond words to everyone who worked on those.
-NJM
Oh thank you so much :D
(for mine mockups at least)
-Angel
I believe that it should take some extra firepower to blow up the reactor core. A few laser blasts from an X-Wing and a proton torpedo or two from the Falcon isn't all that climactic. It must be one weakly built reactor to cripple under that kind of small scale firepower. Just from a practicality standpoint, you'd think that there would be some shielding around this thing just for general protection. The place is under construction, after all. Things do go haywire during construction jobs. Granted, the first DS was taken down by a single torpedo, but even that is a stretching things.
I also like the idea of the DS2 having a more realistic explosion. Having it break apart and such. Just give it a more cinematic ending instead of just being atomized with no debris of any kind.
-NJM
Regarding the size of the Death Star, purely from a viewer's perspective - what I feel is lacking is a composition shot where you get the scale. ANH had two such "reveals", as the Falcon approached the station, captured by the tractor beam, and later as the X-Wings and Y-Wings "descended"upon the station for their attack. Both scenes gave a great sense of scale.
In RotJ the fleet action is taking place, at leas initially, relatively far away from the Death Star, yet later we immediately cut to a shot of the rebel fighters on the surface, starting a "trench run". There wasn't such an imposing, thrilling shot as with the X-Wing descending upon the huge, impossible target...
Even the shuttle scene in the beginning establishes the scale of the Star Destroyer escorts (and does so quite well) better than the arrival in the station. The only such scene is the relatively short parade of the TIEs in front of the hangars as the Emperor arrives.
ANH had the Star destroyer swallow the Tantive IV.
ESB had the Super Stardestroyer overshadow the stardestroyers
RotJ had ?????? - so why not have the DSII swallow the SSD (first with a shadow a la ESB) then with a physical shot of a docking bay in the opening sequence.
Bingowings said: Do you want to see the project finished as a playable film or a flick book?
Between Angel and myself we did have the idea of The Executor not just crashing on the surface of the Death Star but sinking through the incomplete section and causing more damage when it finally exploded.
What if the Executor crash takes out the superlaser, allowing the Falcon et al to get through to the core?
It would be cool to see Sullust somewhere near the Rebel fleet before it goes into hyperspace.
That suggestion is already on the wishlist.
My bad.
For those who need to get up-to-speed on the wish list: http://doubleofive.wordpress.com/rotj-fanedit-wishlist/
-NJM
ChainsawAsh said:
What if the Executor crash takes out the superlaser, allowing the Falcon et al to get through to the core?
- if the "Executor rams the super laser dish " scene is created [and the Emperor's tower is put in the dead center of the SL dish], you could create a scene where the Emperor sees the Executor heading full speed for the dish/his tower. He orders the DS2 to fire, but the Executor is too close; the beams form a cage, as the pinpoint is above the Executor, which flies between the multiple beams going above it. The Emperor's eyes get bigger as it approaches, covered in fire (ala FLASH GORDON), but it rams the inside of the dish just before hitting the Emperor's tower.
Didn't I just post this 5 posts above?
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
I don't know if it's Imageshack, my computer, my new location, or some evil concatenation of all three, but I can't see half of these mockups now being posted (and all of them are at Imageshack).
Didn't see that, Monroville. However, I feel like that would take away from the redemption of Anakin, since he wouldn't be the one that kills Palpatine.
Alternatively, what if the rebels try to go in and blow up the Death Star as planned, but can't get through, or it doesn't work, so [someone] comes up with the idea to ram the Executor into it, thus destroying it?
That would probably require too much footage that simply doesn't exist, though ...
The Empire does seem to equate better with bigger (even though that doesn't necessarily make sense).
After building one Death Star they may now have the means to make a weapon as powerful but a fraction of the size and if they were in a hurry to build it would they bother with the fortress side of the station?
The first Death Star was an exercise in putting all the eggs in one basket.
It's a huge prison, a mobile Imperial base, potentially a concentration camp and it has the superweapon too, it size is an effective psychological weapon in itself but it may be more efficient to make several stripped down versions of just the superweapon.
That's why I suggested making the new fortress a lure (George like decoys and Palpatine is meant to be from Naboo too).
If the real weapon was stuck on something like another command ship that dropped out of hyperspace once everyone was there it could be shot to make it look bigger than any of the other capital ships (even The Executor) without having to make any comparisons with the Endor Moon or the metal moon which would represent the former big bad of ANH.
Imagine a giant inside out umbrella being pushed along by a ship bigger than The Executor. That would look cool.
I could also image Jejerrod being pissed about being pressured into the impossible task of finishing his Death Star only to this hideous thing turn up and steal his thunder (maybe he got his to work beyond the Emperor's expectations and one superweapon could accidentally or deliberately destroy the other).
