Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 218

More scenes with Obi-Wan are completely unnecessary.

The only possible time I can think of adding a flash of extra Yoda and Ben is when Palpatine it hitting Luke with Force lightning.

In one of the scripts Yoda's ghost was going to come between Luke and Palpatine and frustrate his attempts to kill Luke.

I wouldn't want that or imagine it possible with the existing footage but it might be possible to add some almost subliminal images of their ghosts trying to shield Luke.

The lightning seems to hit in three waves each becoming more intense.

Wave one could be slightly absorbed by Yoda and Palpatine breaks down the small amount of protection, on the second wave Ben tries to help but fails even quicker leaving Luke without any protection for the final wave leaving it to Anakin to save Luke.

This could be an evocation of their spirits by Luke and count as one of the "feeble skills" Palpatine refers to.

I'm not sure if it would work but it might be interesting to attempt it to see if it could.

Obi-Wan turning up at every turn sounds a bit like an annoying parent constantly checking up on his child via a mobile phone.

Having them appear spirit shields however might serve a purpose and if Vader sees his old friends failing to protect his son it might add to his eventual return to the Light side.

RoccondilRinon said:

Obi-Wan Kenobi said:

If you face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

Presumably, this rule still applies. I don't think we need to see the ghosts there at all.

Wouldn't be the first time Obi told a fib, but I agree anyway.

We don't really know what the rules are if indeed there are any Obi-Wan may just be saying that to convince Luke to stay put (remember they are trying to prevent Luke from rushing in unready just to save his friends who don't actually need saving, they rescue him in the end and only just).

He may also be saying I can only protect you once and now is not the time.

When the Gods offer boons or magical weapons they often can only be used at special times and once used are lost.

If this was attempted it might mean having to adjust the ghost reunion at the end so Anakin appears first and then brings Ben and Yoda back.

The exorcism of Ben and Yoda by Palpatine could create anxiety in the audience (has Palpatine ended their afterlife?) my godson asked me to suggest that Yoda didn't die because it made him sad (he is nine), I suggested that it might necessary for the story and he said "Well he does come back as a ghost".

Putting that at risk and having Anakin being the agent of their return would add to his redemption.

It would have to be done with subtlety, Luke still has to be in pain in waves one and two, the ghosts should only appear where the lighting makes contact with them (think Captain Howdy in The Exorcist).

And as I said I'm not convinced it would work but it's worth a try (if anything to utterly dismiss the idea if it doesn't).

Bingowings said:

 Jeez, that's just creepy.

That's sort of the idea, not only is Luke in agony but the spirits of his dead mentors are also in jeopardy.

The scene should be horrific.

As I said earlier I'm not sure if it would work but part of the problem is this Force Ghost business was pretty much made up at the eleventh hour of shooting ANH and even after all these years has never been thought out properly.

Just as Obi-Wan allows himself to be killed he claims that if Vader strikes him down he will "become more powerful than...(he)...could possibly imagine" all Obi-Wan does in spirit form is give Luke a bit of shooting advice, direct him to Yoda and confess to fibbing a bit.

He could have done that with hiding a letter in Luke's pocket (Marty McFly didn't need to be a ghost to save Doc Brown).

While I wouldn't go as far as bringing them back to life and physically joining in the fight (as in one of the dropped elements of earlier draughts of the script) it makes sense that their spirit forms wield some power beyond that which we see in the theatrical versions.

The Golden Idol said:

Bingowings said:

 Jeez, that's just creepy.

 that might turn it into a horror movie. it would be better with flashbacks, but that would be stupid anyways

For it to be clichéd it would have to have been done over and over again (I can't remember it happening once in anything, unless I've crossed universes again).

As for it having horror movie overtones, there is this pale faced guy in a black hood with weird eyes shooting lighting out of his finger tips (clichéd perhaps but already in the story and possibly impossible to change in a radical way) at the hero of this trilogy. While his father (a clichéd dark knight with a skull mask) looks on.

The scene has already got (for good reason) horror movie overtones (as do many similar film series like Harry Potter especially at points in the story like this).

Flashbacks have never appeared in a Star Wars movie, it's against the idiom of the series, but the Force Ghosts already do exist and we are told that they are more powerful than Vader can possibly imagine, so it's consistent with what we know and to have the Emperor appear to defeat them with ease potentially adds to the supposed hopelessness of Luke's situation.

It's not a schooner... it's a Sailboat ;-)

Monroville said:

rcb said:

The Golden Idol said:

Bingowings said:

 Jeez, that's just creepy.

 that might turn it into a horror movie. it would be better with flashbacks, but that would be stupid anyways

Actually, I can't really tell what is going on here... it looks like a "three fingered hand" to the right of Luke, but other than that, it looks like the RAIDERS ghosts from the Ark have seen better days...

Step back from the monitor and tell us what you see. Hint: What looks to be a three-fingered hand is an upper eyelid.

Bingowings said:

Just as Obi-Wan allows himself to be killed he claims that if Vader strikes him down he will "become more powerful than...(he)...could possibly imagine" all Obi-Wan does in spirit form is give Luke a bit of shooting advice, direct him to Yoda and confess to fibbing a bit.

That's very true.  So now the question is, how can Obi-Wan be shown more powerful as a ghost?  I don't think it can be done, but someone could have an idea.

He can walk through walls. Suddenly be standing over you in your sleep. Make shit your pants scary noises in the night. That sort of thing, without ever getting the blame.

Re-directing Lukes actions changed his normal way of thinking(mostly-except when Luke does his own thing on leaving Degoba), and guides him to overthrow the empire. If Luke follows his natural instinct he possibly would have most possibly been seduced by Dada to the darkside.

As much as i dont wanna go PT, OB-1 could have prevented Anakin from the darkside if he could have watched over his every action all the time. He may have learnt he could protect Luke better by being a spirit (or a fine wine, a beer, or an alcho pop even), without the confinement of being an ancient mortal, and stuff.

Its one of those power of suggestion things that makes no scence when you think about it, but makes perfect scence if you dont think about it at all.

Say, Qui-Gon could have done that too and saved everyone a lot of hassle.

Wouldn't made to much of a story though.

I dont get the respect to Qui-Gon or Mace in those filums. Guess George has a back story for them too, which will be a ho hum aswell (and open up a whole new can of worms again).

Any road up the idea is on the table.

If people want to play with it play away, if not don't.

It's the only way of adding more ghost action I can see that makes any sense at all and thinking about it made it make even more sense to me than it did when the idea popped in my head.

What is so all powerful about being a ghost anyway (other than the excellent points Darth Solo brought up, Force Ghosts don't even leave mucus for Egon)?

You get to chat to the living, possibly pass on a bit of old school knowledge while Luke is building his new school (great stuff if the story was going to go beyond ROTJ but not very useful if it ends with Episode VI).

It's not like Lucas' videogame arm which seems to think Force Ghosts can wield lightsabers and get stabbed by them.

The Force Ghost thing needs a rethink anyway especially on the PT side of the coin, so why not extend it to the other side?

They're Here!

Bingowings said:

Say, Qui-Gon could have done that too and saved everyone a lot of hassle.

 

 Qui-Gon spoke to yoda in the AOTC novelization.

but, how i always thought of Obi-wan's claim is that being a jedi ghost meant he could in secret help make luke more powerful along side with yoda right under vader's and the emperor's nose.

rcb said:

Bingowings said:

Say, Qui-Gon could have done that too and saved everyone a lot of hassle.

 

 Qui-Gon spoke to yoda in the AOTC novelization.

but, how i always thought of Obi-wan's claim is that being a jedi ghost meant he could in secret help make luke more powerful along side with yoda right under vader's and the emperor's nose.

How would that be any different from Ben being alive (other than the obvious fact that Tarkin would have told the Emperor that Obi-Wan had gotten away and/or killed Vader but without knowing where to)?

Chances are without Vader letting them escape (to track them) our heroes wouldn't have got anywhere anyway so any speculation of worth hinges on the shooting script idea of everyone escaping to Yavin and Vader surviving.

Which would have played out pretty much the same only Ben would have been around all the time to train Luke and Yoda wouldn't need to turn up at all (I doubt he would have even exist if Sir Alec had been keen on being in these films after doing the first one).

Having Ben vanish and make those claims created a mystery which should have been a master stroke if it paid off.

Instead like so much post ESB Star Wars Lucas and friends seemed to run out of inventiveness and just covered the cracks with a veneer which felt like storytelling but really wasn't (at least Kara Thrace got to actually push some buttons even if we never knew how she got there to do it, RDM uses a little less varnish but it's from the same tin).

Maybe he can't see them but can only see the partial deflection of the bolts.

There is a big thing made in the PT about the power of the dark side focused in a few individuals blinding the many Jedi to the powers of the Sith.

Maybe this works in reverse.

Only one Jedi and two Sith means the balance has shifted and Palpatine's cock-sure powers are weakening.

So when he refers to Luke's feeble skills he is assuming Luke is trying to reflect the blasts himself and not that he is getting some limited help.

Vader on the other hand may be able to see them as he holds the scales.

I was suggesting making it subtle (Monroville found my mockup, not the last word hopefully in the concept, too subtle to make out in a frozen image).

Palpatine is so snarly that he could notice and still keep the same expression and say the same things.