Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 201

Ghost said:

Actually, some of the best movies now have great fx.  Like the Batmans, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, just a few of them.

Mabey we have a misunderstanding. 

 Ghost, are you actually reading anything we're saying to you? Or just not understanding it?

I think we have a misunderstanding.

Lets just forget about it.

005's blog has changes that I would like to see.  I don't just come to these boards to defend SW and not change anything like some of you guys do.

That's right, you'll never find me posting mock-ups of changes for these films. But change for the sake of change is not something I care to support.

Adywan is enhancing alot in ESB. There is really no complaint about it.   Alot of it is change for the sake of change. Is it not? Making Hoth and Bespin look nicer and upgrading the Asteroid Chase doesn't advance the plot.  But it does make the movie more enjoyable.

So what are some of your ideas of plot advancing changes guys?  There really aren't a whole lot.  I would be open to any plot advancing scenes.  But at the end of the day, most of the changes will be to make the movie better.

 Now let's talk about mock-ups! :D

Yes- Keep them coming!

Darth Chronus said:

shanerjedi said:

Chronus, you are perfectly entitled to enjoy the prequels as is anyone else. I might actually enjoy them too. But the idea is that you don't change things up story-wise or character-wise just so you can have another fx shot.

I mean, these films need all the character they can get. They're not character pieces and as such need the subtle moments, the visual moments(like Luke walking into the palace) that help define character, to get those ideas across.

You lose those subconscious triggers if you just examine the film at face value.

That's why some of today's films with fantastic fx don't work and some with good, but not great, fx do. It's all in how it's put together, under the surface and with story, pace, and dialogue, not just the cool stuff that's cool because it's cool.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I just meant that it was a missed opportunity for the prequels to have certain elements lost or taken away (that were actually written in their respective novels). It's a rather funny thing, but I felt bags of emotion and coherence in the actual novels - Attack of the ClonesRevenge of the Sith was the best written. The Phantom Menace had some great stuff in it in terms of pacing and dialogue (some that was ommitted from the film), but it is actually the weakest of the film novelisations was actually the most joyous one to read and (although still a good read). And I'm actually talking about the Del Rey teen/adult novels as opposed to the childeren's versions :)

I really don't believe so much in 'the cool stuff that's cool, just because it's cool', because it does seem shallow if that's all one would think about.

Now let's talk about mock-ups! :D

No I agree with you that the novels were better than the films;however, a film can't necessarily be expected to top a novel as they're really two different things. But anyway

back to mock ups!

To some extent the changes proposed (and indeed executed) by some editors are superficially superficial, in that some viewers may see it as merely adding decoration to an already visually rich artifact. When in fact they are doing a lot more by adding to the illusion of an engagingly plausible fantastic world in service of the story.

It is possible to go to a theatre and watch a play with minimal props, scenery or costume and still have a powerful evocation of a story but that's not what the majority of cinema is about and it's certainly not what these films are about.

The problem with a lot of modern cinema and this is particularly evident in Lucas' later Star Wars films is that they feel deep down superficial. Even really high levels of decoration can be functional but there is a trend for flashing spectacle at the audience to dazzle them into not noticing that there is a lot amiss with the integrity of the narrative. That might work on one viewing if the viewer isn't paying enough attention and the spectacle is significantly spectacular but that falls into dust on repeated viewing.

At their core Star Wars films are tales, in a classical sense, they are fables and fables are meant to be returned to.

While the characters exist within a fabulous tableau, their world needs to feel plausible to us not just for the first time but everytime we feel the need to return to those stories.

For their time the first two Star Wars films were amazing and I could watch them in their original form and forgive the little bumps and cracks in the fresco because they were made with a real feel for the sort of story they were trying to tell.

Editors like Ady when they approach those films are really just giving us an alternative view of an already impressive picture.

The other films are different, they don't really function as they should and approaching those films is more of an act of rebuilding than refreshing.

Sometimes that means shifting the sequence of events around which necessitates the reframing of scenes previously occupying a different place in the narrative, sometimes that means adjusting small details to remove destractions that take the viewer out of the scene, sometimes it means adding new elements which feel missing and a lot of that is subjective (which is why I don't think these films will ever be made perfect for everyone).

It's possible and clearly the case that people on these boards propose changes in service of the story which other people disagree with but the reason for proposing them should always be and usually is, to enhance the storytelling nature of these films.

Nobody should add (or remove) just for the sake of seeing something new.

There is enough in all these films to still say the same story but to do that story justice (even the PT can be saved with a lot of hard work, I wasn't before but now I'm convinced of it).

They may never be the films that everyone hoped they would be but I really do believe they could tell something approaching the story that Lucas seemed to want to tell but didn't, for all manner of reasons, achieve to tell.

I agree with everything you said Bingo, apart from your new-found optimism for the prequels. I'm not sure they can really be made to work. The performances are almost uniformly stilted (as they are in Jedi, save for Ian McDiarmid and Frank Oz) and I just don't see how any amount of tinkering can imbue sufficient emotional depth into films that are all so totally devoid of it.

But yeah, your others points are commendable.

RoccondilRinon:

Their flaws are superficial and smaller-scale: editing, dialogue, acting and the occasional effects failure or strained suspension of disbelief.

You think those things are superficial? What exactly would you consider an important factor of film?

I'd say "Their flaws are superficial and smaller-scale" is saying they're not very important in the scheme of things.

Forgive my abrupt response, I was just having trouble believing what I was reading.

Nope, still not seeing it any different to how it reads.

Darth Venal said:

RoccondilRinon:

Their flaws are superficial and smaller-scale: editing, dialogue, acting and the occasional effects failure or strained suspension of disbelief.

Fucking hell, you think those things are superficial? What exactly would you consider an important factor of film?

That's really a PT thread question which deserves a PT thread answer.

I think PT is as much a problem as ROTJ but it offers opportunities that ROTJ doesn't (more aliens and masked characters which can have dialogue altered and less attachment to original performances so more room to be radical without jumping up and down on treasured memories).

So there is more room to do work on the PT (if someone wants to put the hard graft in).

ROTJ is a tighter space to work in but there is more that already works to pull out a polish so there are possibilities either way.

RoccondilRinon said:

Read it again then, DV. Notice that I never said I think them unimportant, YOU made that jump. Kindly stop insisting that I said something I didn't.

 You said that those flaws were superficial and small scale. Same difference. I think those flaws are totally critical, anything but superficial and "small scale" and as such, the prequels are not as easily rescued as you believe. Let's drop it if you don't wanna argue about it, but you did say those flaws in the prequels are superficial and small scale. I fundamentally disagree.

Please, I'm not being pigheaded, I just don't see any difference in what you said.

You listed flaws you consider "superficial and small scale" about the prequels, that's in your post. And I fundamentally disagree with that, as you can tell. That's all.

That's weird, Luke does look wrong with that red sabre. Interesting...