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Info: Hard Boiled and The Killer

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 (Edited)

Looking for definitive versions of these films. The Miramax version of Hard Boiled is okay, but the aspect seems a bit off and it uses dubtitles.

The new Miramax version of the Killer is downright awful. It uses a PAL master and incorporates the deleted scenes that are on the original DVDs. Plus the Blu-ray is interlaced. STAY AWAY!!

I have the original Criterion releases (non anamorphic) for both of these, and still use this to watch The Killer. After recently watching this version it made me think of just how much I wanted to see it restored to its former glory.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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captainsolo said:

Looking for definitive versions of these films. The Miramax version of Hard Boiled is okay, but the aspect seems a bit off and it uses dubtitles.

The new Miramax version of the Killer is downright awful. It uses a PAL master and incorporates the deleted scenes that are on the original DVDs. Plus the Blu-ray is interlaced. STAY AWAY!!

I have the original Criterion releases (non anamorphic) for both of these, and still use this to watch The Killer. After recently watching this version it made me think of just how much I wanted to see it restored to its former glory.

Easiest response ever. Just get the Mei-Ah and Dragon Dynasty releases of HARD-BOILED. For THE KILLER, just get the Joy Sales/Fortune Star release.

Miramax never released either of these.

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 (Edited)

Additional get the Taiwan DVD of Hard Boiled. The quality may s*** (Hard Boiled at caps-a-holic) but it is the only source (known to me) containing the longer cut of the movie.

Fo "The Killer" I recommend additionally the french double DVD set. The bonus Disc containing a longer Version of The Killer. The Image Quality could be better, but is not as bad as the Taiwan Hard Boiled release. (The Killer at caps-a-holic)

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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MrBrown said:

Additional get the Taiwan DVD of Hard Boiled. The quality may s*** (Hard Boiled at caps-a-holic) but it is the only source (known to me) containing the longer cut of the movie.

Fo "The Killer" I recommend additionally the french double DVD set. The bonus Disc containing a longer Version of The Killer. The Image Quality could be better, but is not as bad as the Taiwan Hard Boiled release. (The Killer at caps-a-holic)

You also use caps-a-holic? EXCELLENT.

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DarkGryphon2048 said:

MrBrown said:

Additional get the Taiwan DVD of Hard Boiled. The quality may s*** (Hard Boiled at caps-a-holic) but it is the only source (known to me) containing the longer cut of the movie.

Fo "The Killer" I recommend additionally the french double DVD set. The bonus Disc containing a longer Version of The Killer. The Image Quality could be better, but is not as bad as the Taiwan Hard Boiled release. (The Killer at caps-a-holic)

You also use caps-a-holic? EXCELLENT.

 

Sometimes I also help there providing additonal versions. Exactly like the HK remastered and french Versions of "The Killer" and the Taiwan Version of "Hard Boiled". Its great to see that some people like the work there. :)

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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Criterion really needs these back. The DD Blu of Hard Boiled is merely the old master bumped to Blu with noise reduction applied.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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Agreed. As mentioned before, the TF1 is the best edition so far; it just doesn't have English subtitles. The master does look very detailed and vibrant.

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 (Edited)
Hard Boiled Bluray from Dragon Dynasty is the best version Ive seen. Not checked ot the Japanese or HK variations but Im sure there of the same flavor. The HK Bluray release of the Killer is my prefered version. No DNR and Original Chinese Titles but It contains a remastered soundtrack which adds SFX. Its better done than the recent Japanese Blurays of the Better Tomorrow Trilogy but the option for the original Mono mix would be nice. Ive resynced the Criterion Audio tracks for Both Hard Boiled & The Killer to the versions mentioned above if anybody wants them? PM me.
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PMed.

I didn't know there was another Blu-ray edition of The Killer. It doesn't seem to be the greatest but at least it has no DNR and isn't badly converted from PAL.

The DD Blu-ray uses the same source as the German EMS DVD but crops it a bit and scrubs out detail. This is what they did with their Hard Boiled transfer, but I can't remember which transfer that was based on. At least they didn't screw it up like they did for The Killer.

Their HB DVD was the first way I saw the film, and it is the best all around version as of now. The Blu-ray is a nice bump up to HD that reveals more of the re-done transfer's limitations. But I still think some of the color timing is off.

I now own the Fortune Star and Criterion editions of both in addition to the DD Hard Boiled and I'm still not at all satisfied with any of them. These are the two films Criterion really needs to get back in the collection.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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 (Edited)

I am bumping this since I just came across and found my jaw hitting the floor. it's been YEARS sine I watched these two films, out of disgust at the remixed soundtracks. 

UPDATE...

The final, fully EQ'd audio is here...

https://mega.co.nz/#!KVY0AIzC!X1FkOEtd9TCmYWWUAL8w7xafW54q6lRdrOUEEkOt0lc

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I wonder if anyone is willing to work on these and bring them back to a what we fondly remember.

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I would, if I had access to the best video versions out there. I still have the Criterion laserdiscs and would use the audio tracks from them (cleaning them up in soundbooth first). The only issue would be subtitles. 

Would anyone be willing to handle the subtitles, as that is such a pain in the neck. Doing subs on top of everything else would be far too much work with my schedule. 

No doubt I'd want to have REAL subtitles and not dub-titles. 

I PM'd CSchmidlapp about his effort, but have not heard back from him. 

 

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I have custom editions utilizing the best video transfers out there with correct mono audio, in addition to most of all the features and correct subtitles. The only problem is that they're PAL and I'm quite bad at trying to convert to NTSC. In addition they use menu navigation from multiple DVD sources and are quite confusing to try and find everything. I always wanted to combine these with Criterion LD PCM audio so if people are game...

HB has the best video from the TF1 DVD and the more accurate subtitles instead of Dubtitles. Needs a PAL to NTSC conversion for PCM mono addition.

The Killer has the German EMS DVD video (which is what Miramax/Dragon Dynasty badly converted to 1080i for their BD) with added features from EU editions.

Both look stunning after all we've gone through with bad NTSC transfers over the years. This is what they should have looked like years ago.

I also have both the R1 Criterion and FortuneStar DVD releases for any other missing features, and because the commentaries are different for each film on each DVD.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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 (Edited)

Hi All.

Not been around in a long time, got bills to pay and stuff.

Im currently working on versions of both The Killer and Hard Boiled.

I started collection up all the resources for stuff at the Start Of The Year and it has been a mega project.

Hard Boiled being the one im working on more closely at the moment.

Here is where Im up to with them both and there o.k Version 1s of the Project.

Hard Boiled.

I used the Dragon Dynasty Blu Ray Release as the video.

Audio Tracks Include -

Cantonese DTS @ 5.1 1510Kbps (Blu Ray Mix)

Cantonese 5.1 Remaster AC3 @ 640kbps (CSchmidlapp's Resynced MeiAh DVD Audio)

Cantonese AC3 Stereo @ 192Kbps (Mono Criterion DVD Mix)

English AC3 5.1 @ 448Kbps (Blu Ray Mix)

English AC3 Stereo @ 192Kbps (Mono Criterion DVD Mix)

Commentary AC3 Stereo @ 192Kbps (Criterion DVD Mix)

Subtitle tracks are -

English Dubtitles

 

The Killer

I used the Fortune Star Chinese Blu Ray Release for video (Pretty Poor still tho!)

Audio Tracks Include -

Cantonese TrueHD core AC3 5.1 640Kbps (Chinese Blu-ray Mix)

Cantonese Dolby Digital 5.1 (CSchmidlapp's HK Legends Re-mix)

Cantonese Dolby Digital 2.0 (Original Mono, Criterion DVD)

Dolby Digital 5.1 English Dub (HK Legends)

Commentary with John Woo & Terence Chang (Criterion DVD)

Commentary with Bey Logan (HKLegends)

Subtitle tracks are -

English HK Legends Subs

Chinese Blu-ray Subs

 

As I say im still working on them but these are the Version 1s

I will post a more detailed explanation of things in sections as theres alot to cover for the final versions.

 

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Hard Boiled.

For the Final Version of this I intend to do a Multi-disc version with custom menus and everything.

Ill try my best not to be confusing but there's quite a lot to cover and I have to go to work soon.

The Movie

From the research and work ive done so far and the various versions Ive collected over the Years here is what ive got and where I am.

What I have is.

French DVD version. PAL 720x576 16.9 Cantonese 5.1, Mono

2 Tartan DVD editions (Tartan Asia Extreme and Hard Subbed Version) PAL 720x576 16.9 DTS, AC3 5.1 and mono mixes in both Cantonese and English (Best English Subs)

Mei Ah Remastered DVD NTSC 720x480 16.9 Remastered DTS, AC3 in cantonese. (Direct English Translation subs)

Criterion DVD NTSC 720x480 4:3 Letterbox Mono in Cantonese and English Comentary.

Dragon Dynasty Blu Ray. 1920x1080p DTS HD 5.1 Cantonese, AC3 5.1 English

 

THE PICTURE

I have taken the PAL Versions and done a 25fps to 23.976 conversion to them and the Subtitles.

and done a reverse telecine from 29 fps to 23.976 on the NTSC Versions.

Almost all of them don't sync up as it seems There are various versions of the film from completely different masters made custom by the distributor of the film in that region. (The Killer Is A Different Story and Sync up almost perfectly)

The only 2 that do are the Dragon Dynasty and Criterion Versions.

The French DVD is the best Picture overall. Has a bit of a blue tint but over all has nice grain and all the detail. The 2nd in line is the Dragon Dynasty which has a much higher resolution but has the dreaded DNR issue that plagues this format and has wiped out much of the Detail kind of like the Predator Ultimate Edition! (Plus it has a weird Aspect ratio where the picture has been squashed slightly!) The Tartan Asia extreme is good but not as good at the above and the others are way behind.

So its The French for the picture then.....

Well its missing bits! and when I say bits its 3 or 4 frames from at the end of a shot sometimes and its random through out as i mentioned above all have this characteristic a little (With the Meh Ah Remaster The audio is in-sync to the audio with others when you realign at where a reel change would of occurred, there are some other sync re-alinement but it took me about 2 days to finish it, More on this later)

When considering the other factors like the Multiple Audio Tracks available (Most of them from the Dragon Dynasty & Criterion)and that the Criterion is The only one that had John Woo Supervise the Telecine (From his own Print I believe.) its a bit more hard. Remember the Dragon Dynasty syncs up with the Criterion.

For my version 1 I synced up to the Dragon Dynasty with good success. The only thing I did not finish is the Proper Subs from The Tartan.

The other thing would be to go into the French version and remaster all the picture to the Audio and add frames here and there ect or re cut all the audio tracks to the French Picture.

Its a decision Ive not fully made yet. What do you think?


AUDIO

The audio an Hard Boiled has always sounded crap to me. It was fine on a T.V on VHS in the early days but you put it through a HiFi and worse a Digital Amp it sounds weird. Compare it to the English Dub where the music and Sound Fx sound good to me.

The best audio for me were the original Mono. Just sounds the best, more bass and better eq. Hard Boiled was released in mono and all the 5.1 mixes have been created from the mono mix. The DTS track on the Blu ray is passable but I have tried e.qing it myself add in more bass and a custom LFE channel to spruce it up a bit. sounded Better but nothing to the clarity of the English Dub.

Now I gather in 92 when Hard Boiled was released the foreign markets were given a print with the original Mono mix and a Sound Fx and Music audio track for there dub. This must still be floating around because it sounds like the Meh Ai remaster uses these tracks and mixes them with the original Mono. Sounds Much better  but at times has horrible POPs, glitches and phasing. Still not good enough really but sounds better than all the 5.1 mixes.

My plan is to use the Blu ray DTS, Cantonese and AC3 English tracks, the Meh Ai DTS and CD soundtrack and create my own custom mix. Its a tough one as they all have problems. I have started syncing the soundtrack up to the film (Dragon Dynasty Picture) with is a big job in its self as the tracks on the CD Soundtrack run at a different speeds, Mixes and are edited different (3 different tracks used on the CD make up a sequence in the film) Plus some music is not included on the CD. At the end I will hope to have a separate Dialogue Track, Sound Fx Track, and Music Track some of them will cross but it will be close enough to make a decent 5.1 mix.

How much Better does the Criterion Mono on the Laser-disc Sound to the DVD? I gather it PCM? If its a lot better would be grate to add this as the Original Audio track on the final.

SUBTITLES

From what has been wrote before on various forums the general consensus is that the Tartan DVD has the Best Subtitles available. I'm trying my best to sync these up to the Dragon Dynasty Release. A PAL to NTSC conversion is not possible due to the problems outlined in the Picture Section above. It takes time but Ill get there.

I watched the Mei Ah remaster and the Subs are Direct translation from the Cantonese. They suffer from most Chinese translations and are a bit all over the place but add more to whats going on. Would a mix of this and the Tartan into a new translation be worth while?

 

Next I will go through what extra features I have collected and some things I know are available but have not got hold of.

 

 

 

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EXTRAS

Here is the stuff I already have collected.

Commentary from John Woo, Terence Chang, Roger Avery and Dave Kehr from the Criterion DVD

Original Theatrical Trailers - Hong Kong & English Variation from the Tartan Releases and The Criterion DVD

Interview on the Career of John Woo - From Chinese T.V in 1992 / 93 from the Tartan DVD

A Baptism of Fire: A Featurette with Iconic Director John Woo.

Art Imitates Life: An Interview With Co-Star Philip Chan.

Mad Dog Bites Again: An Interview With Leading Villain Kwok Cho.

Hard Boiled Location Guide - All from the Dragon Dynasty Blu Ray

Hard Boiled Taiwanese Cut - DVD of the Tiawanese cut. In Mandarin Alternative Edit contains alt music and camera angles ect. More info available on the net but its not really an extended cut and the reason it is listed as running longer is that there is a gap of Black video in the middle of the film! Its 4:3 letterbox and pretty poor quality but a nice extra feature.

American Cinematheque Q+A on Hard Boiled From The Dragon Dynasty 'The Killer' DVD

Original Music Soundtrack - From the CD Soundtrack by Michael Gibbs Either as a audio track on the main DVD when Ive synced them up or as a jukebox on the Extras Disc or Both.

Here is stuff I'm on the Prowl for!

Partner in Crime: An Interview with Producer Terence Chang - from the Dragon dynasty DVD it was not included on the Blu-Ray! There is also a Trailer Gallery and a Making Of Stranglehold.

Feature Length Audio Commentary by Hong Kong Cinema Expert Bey Logan  Can not get this working on the Bluray! don't think it is on there.


A l'épreuve du temps : documentaire avec John Woo, Terence Chang, David Wu et Philip Kwok  From the French DVD's 2nd Disc. Not got the 2nd DVD there is also an interview with Tony Leung. So the whole of the Disc 2 of the French Release really!

There was an interview with Woo on a Special Edition VHS boxset from Tartan I used to own that went on for 30mins and was uncut footage form the Little Picture show, I think from 1993. I no longer have this and wish I did came with a limited edition TShirt i wore to death lol. Anybody else got this?

 

Anything else anybody knows of?

A picture gallery would be nice with Posters ect if anybody has any?

There are also various versions of the open and end credits available on the various Discs. From Clean open, English Open and Chinese Open. Plus a dedication on the end credits.

Will go through the Killer another day, its alot more straight forward.

 

 

 

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 (Edited)

The Killer.

Again For the Final Version of this I intend to do a Multi-Disc Version with Custom Menus and Everything.

The Movie


What I have is

German DVD Version. PAL 720x576 16.9 Cantonese 5.1, Mono
U.K Hong Kong Legends Disc PAL 720x576 16.9 Cantonese and English 5.1 (Best English Subs)
Criterion DVD NTSC 720x480 4:3 Letterbox Mono & Commentary.
Fortune Star Blu Ray 1920x1080p DTS 5.1 Remix (Direct translation Subs)


THE PICTURE

Ive taken the PAL Versions and Done a 25fps to 23.976 Conversion to them and the Subs.
And done a reverse telecine from 29fps to 23.976 On the Criterion.

All Of them sync up well in the edit suite with a little tweaking here and there.

The german DVD is hands down the best Ive got. It has English opening and Closing Credits so will have to replace the opening and end with another addition and try to match it in Colour ect the best way I can. Probably the Hong Kong Legends Version. The problem is The german DVD is Hard Interlaced and will take a really good De-interlace Method to bring it back to a suitable progressive format. I am looking into this at the mo.

The Bluray is quite poor when you look at them side by side. It does have a higher resolution and is True Progressive but the Brightness has been higher-ed to such a degree that it has blown out. Some backgrounds that were present in the German Print are now just White. It also has a lot of noise. Ive synced all the audio to this for my Version 1 as I was making HD mkv’s.

AUDIO

The Best Audio is the Mono original. Guns and Soundfx have more power and its a more pleasing EQ. Again next to the Dub it sounds a little empty I think down to the same reasons I out lined in the Hard Boiled Audio section.

The Hong Kong Legends audio lacks power I tried a custom mix of this but I'm still not happy with it I just EQed it and added gun sound fx to the Left and Right Channels to try and give it a little more bang. May have to do a custom version at some point like the Hard Boiled one I'm attempting but will be a lot harder as there is no CD Soundtrack available with a decent quality. It uses some Music from Red Heat tho and I have that. Maybe using the English Dub and the Remaster DTS from Fortune Star I can get something but Ill look at that later.

The Bluray Remastered Soundtrack is one of those terrible remixes with over the top added effects that stick out a mile. I don't mind adding effects if they blend well and don't replace original elements of the mix but this is like the Better Tomorrow mixes from Japan that are dire.

Again maybe the Criterion Mono from the Laser-disc will be a good Original Audio Track for the Final.

SUBTITLES

The Consensus is that the HK Legends DVD contains the Best Subtitles. I have these synced and also a Direct Translation Version from the Blu Ray.

EXTRAS

What I have.

Commentary by director John Woo and producer Terence Chang From The Criterion DVD
Deleted scenes 5 of them from the HK Legends DVD
Theatrical Trailers from the HK Legends DVD
Interviews with Kenneth Tsang Sally Yeh and Peter Pau from the HK Legends DVD
Interview with Director John Woo From the Dragon Dynasty DVD
American Cinematheque Q+A on The Killer From The Dragon Dynasty DVD
The Killer Locations From The Dragon Dynasty DVD
Taiwanese cut from The French DVD, Better Quality than the Hard Boiled one and in 16.9 Ratio with Burnt in Subs and is Disc 2 in the set.
Documentary From The French DVD in English about 30 mins.

Anybody know of anything else?

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What's with the Code of Bullets Documentations from the HK DVD's . Btw: How many CoB do exist, and where are they placed? I think I have 5 or 6 different CoBs.

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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 (Edited)

Not got the Code Of Bullets Documentary's Mr Brown. I gather they were spread over the John Woo Fortune Star Releases. I think the Killer Blu I got was a Bootleg as it has No Menu & No Extras on the Disc. The Feature just start when you insert the disc.

What ones have you got?

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The Killer boot I have also has a 30 min interview with Woo and Tsui Hark. Don't know if this is the same as what you listed above.

Otherwise the only other thing I can think of is the alternate commentaries on the FoxLorber DVDs. They have most of the same content discussed as the Criterion tracks, but with some different information and contributors here and there. IIRC Woo's commentary on The Killer is better on the FoxLorber than the Criterion, where he seems less enthusiastic.

The Criterion LD PCM should be the same source as the the DVD mono. Just imagine it in PCM versus lossy DD 2.0.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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 (Edited)

The Sally Yeh/Yip album FACE TO FACE has the song DRUNK FOR LIFE (track 13) featured in THE KILLER - FLAC/WAV from CD

I'll look through what I have to see if I can fill any of the things you are on the prowl for. In the meantime, here are some other items that may be of interest for a JW/CYF archive, but not necessarily about THE KILLER or HARD BOILED :-

  1. Audience recording of John Woo at BFI (London) 1993/10/01 - FLAC/WAV format from cassette
  2. John Woo interview on NPR Fresh Air 1997/10/07 - FLAC/WAV from cassette
  3. John Woo interview on Fresh Air 2000/03/26  - MP3 download available
  4. Audience recording of Chow Yun Fat at Scala Cinema (London) 1993/06/05 and 1993/06/06 - FLAC/WAV from cassette
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Those sound like pretty definitive custom DVDs... best of luck making them! These movies deserve an end-all high-quality version.

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 (Edited)

I just checked at my DVD profiler: I have "Code of Bullets" Features 1-5 from the HK Fortune Star DVDs of the A better Tomorror series, The Killer and Bullet in the Head. I cant check regarding language until Saturday. Also i just would like to know if there are more out there...

 

Edit:

Well the 5 Code of Bullets have english subtitling.

Here is the list (and which Fortune Star DVD they are from):

Code of Bullet 1 - Guns as Partners & One Man Battle (A Better Tomorrow)

Code of Bullet 2 - Die Hard & Hide! Explosion! (A Better Tomorrow II)

Code of Bullet 3 - A Matter of Seconds & Anti-tanks (A Better Tomorrow III)

Code of Bullet 4 - Perfect Selection & Deadly Sniper (The Killer)

Code of Bullet 5 - Guns Mean Power & Gone With The Wind (Bullet in the Head)

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower