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Info: Guide for Working with 4K HDR Blu-ray Rips in SDR — Page 3

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CorellianSmuggler said:

Is there a way to make it properly identified as Rec.2020

Sorry for the belated reply. Yes, you just need to tell Resolve what the input color space and gamma should be. This can be done by simply right-clicking the ProRes file in the media pool and specifying the color space and gamma as Rec.2020 and ST2084, respectively.

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I have a question for HDR exporting. When you are using the lut in premiere and doing an edit, what settings should I use to make sure that the video is exporting as HDR properly and not exporting just a REC.709 color space from the lut?

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Deloreanhunter12 said:

I have a question for HDR exporting. When you are using the lut in premiere and doing an edit, what settings should I use to make sure that the video is exporting as HDR properly and not exporting just a REC.709 color space from the lut?

In order to export in HDR you need to do the color grade in HDR. Which I doubt you’re able to do accurately unless you have a very very very expensive reference monitor, like the Sony BVM-X300 or the FSI XM310K. Or an Apple Pro Display XDR, if you’re on the cheap end. 🙂

Unless you’ve made a fanedit without any regrading, in which case you can leave all of the original HDR grading.

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44rh1n said:
In order to export in HDR you need to do the color grade in HDR. Which I doubt you’re able to do accurately unless you have a very very very expensive reference monitor, like the Sony BVM-X300 or the FSI XM310K. Or an Apple Pro Display XDR, if you’re on the cheap end. 🙂

Unless you’ve made a fanedit without any regrading, in which case you can leave all of the original HDR grading.

Ooooof, well that blows

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Deloreanhunter12 said:

44rh1n said:
In order to export in HDR you need to do the color grade in HDR. Which I doubt you’re able to do accurately unless you have a very very very expensive reference monitor, like the Sony BVM-X300 or the FSI XM310K. Or an Apple Pro Display XDR, if you’re on the cheap end. 🙂

Unless you’ve made a fanedit without any regrading, in which case you can leave all of the original HDR grading.

Ooooof, well that blows

I mean, it makes sense. You can’t really grade in HDR if you can’t see it in HDR. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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Ok now I have an HDR display, but windows is not allowing me to show HDR properly. The best I can do is turn on HDR effect on my display, but that’s the best I am able to do for now. Is there any way to figure out how to get HDR up and running? I have an LG 27ul600-w and the laptop I am running it off of is a Asus ux550ve

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In order to color grade in HDR, you need to connect your HDR monitor as an external reference display inside of Resolve, not as a GUI display. This means you will need an HDR-supported DeckLink or UltraStudio device, plugged in through PCIe or Thunderbolt.

Also, if all you have access to is a consumer display, then the only ones that can “approximate” the appropriate range necessary for accurate HDR grading are OLEDs. Particularly the last two generations of LG OLEDs (C9 and CX). But even OLEDs require calibration and lots of setup. Dado Valentic has a really great guide for getting an OLED set up for HDR grading. https://youtu.be/T-oYDNbnVXQ

Also, grading in HDR is quite difficult, actually. If you’re not already familiar with grading in Resolve, then you’ll probably want to practice grading in SDR first.

This written guide of mine here on this forum is primarily intended for those who are interested in grading 4K HDR Blu-rays in an SDR environment. Grading in HDR really is quite a complicated beast at the moment for consumers. Most consumer hardware just isn’t really good enough yet.

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Ah gotcha. Thank so much for all your help with this. I want my Hobbit fanedit to be at its best shape so this really helps. Sorry for all the questions, but I do have one last one. Would an HDR passthrough capture card suffice for viewing HDR or would I have to go for one of the Blackmagic devices? I don’t really use resolve that often and primarily use Premiere Pro CC for my basic color needs.

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Deloreanhunter12 said:

Ah gotcha. Thank so much for all your help with this. I want my Hobbit fanedit to be at its best shape so this really helps. Sorry for all the questions, but I do have one last one. Would an HDR passthrough capture card suffice for viewing HDR or would I have to go for one of the Blackmagic devices? I don’t really use resolve that often and primarily use Premiere Pro CC for my basic color needs.

DeckLink and UltraStudio devices are for monitoring, not for capturing. So that’s an entirely different type of device. Also, generally people use the same Blackmagic devices for their reference displays when using Premiere anyway. Or AJA also makes some that work too.

Also, Premiere actually doesn’t even support HDR PQ at this time (the HDR format used on 4K Blu-ray). They have plans to incorporate it into future versions of Premiere, but it’s currently not supported. (You can still cut an HDR ProRes video inside of Premiere, but you won’t be able to monitor it in HDR or export it in HDR). Right now, Premiere only “kind of” supports HDR HLG, which is an entirely different format. And to be frank, their support is quite limited.

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Hello,
I am trying to convert a bunch of HDR movies into SDR using “TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 7” which allows the use of LUT files and I was wondering if there’s someone here willing to help me out.

I have successfully imported the “Rec2020ToRec709_CSTDefault” LUT file, which I suppose is the one to use, and the results are good, but I’d like to make them better, but I’m not sure how.

Thank you.

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winoni71 said:

Hello,
I am trying to convert a bunch of HDR movies into SDR using “TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 7” which allows the use of LUT files and I was wondering if there’s someone here willing to help me out.

I have successfully imported the “Rec2020ToRec709_CSTDefault” LUT file, which I suppose is the one to use, and the results are good, but I’d like to make them better, but I’m not sure how.

Thank you.

The conversion LUTS (HDR > SDR) generally are fixing the overall overexposed and washed out look you would get without correction. The issue is that one LUT will not adequately correct every scene in a film. Each scene has different light and color, so to achieve good results you would have to color correct scene by scene, ideally using an NLE.

Adobe Premiere has a built in “SDR conform” tool, and while you can apply it to the entire video, you can also create an adjustment layer and tweak the SDR conform settings scene by scene.

learn about my fanedits at https://krausfadr.wordpress.com/
heil palpatine.

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krausfadr said:

winoni71 said:

Hello,
I am trying to convert a bunch of HDR movies into SDR using “TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 7” which allows the use of LUT files and I was wondering if there’s someone here willing to help me out.

I have successfully imported the “Rec2020ToRec709_CSTDefault” LUT file, which I suppose is the one to use, and the results are good, but I’d like to make them better, but I’m not sure how.

Thank you.

The conversion LUTS (HDR > SDR) generally are fixing the overall overexposed and washed out look you would get without correction. The issue is that one LUT will not adequately correct every scene in a film. Each scene has different light and color, so to achieve good results you would have to color correct scene by scene, ideally using an NLE.

Adobe Premiere has a built in “SDR conform” tool, and while you can apply it to the entire video, you can also create an adjustment layer and tweak the SDR conform settings scene by scene.

Thanks for the reply.
What is an NLE?
Would the “SDR conform” tool in Adobe Premiere be the easiest and fastest way to convert multiple movies without correcting scene by scene?
I’m looking for the easiest way to do this, because I’m not going to correct scene by scene, that would take me days, if not weeks.

Thanks again.

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A NLE is a non-linear editor, such as Adobe Premiere.

The easiest and fast way would be to do what you did again just choosing a LUT you like better.

Below is a decent and fast option to apply HDR > SDR color correction to the entire video:

In Premiere put three adjustment layers above your video:

Top layer - add a LUT which improves the picture, such as SL GOLD RUSH (or the LUT you already tried), and reduce intensity, perhaps 50%.
Mid layer - add the SDR conform effect here and adjust the brightness and contrast appropriately. Leave soft knee typically at 100%.
Lower Layer - add saturation here of perhaps 115-120% if the colors are washed out.

If you like the SDR conform effect by itself just use it alone.

learn about my fanedits at https://krausfadr.wordpress.com/
heil palpatine.

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 (Edited)

I tried the “SDR conform” effect and it’s quite good, although I’m not sure whether it could be improved.

Here are a few frames from “Back to the future”, 4 from my HDR to SDR conversion using “SDR conform” and the same 4 from the actual SDR Blu-ray version created from the same 4K master.

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SehhPMe_hZxZblh8CFd1DIxE6KgN0_nz

They’re slightly different, but I can’t honestly tell which is better, the SDR BD seems to have a reddish tint.

Thoughts?

Thank you.

P.S.: I don’t’ understand something though, isn’t the HDR metadata supposed to be there precisely to determine, frame by frame or scene by scene, what the picture is supposed to look like?

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winoni71 said:
P.S.: I don’t’ understand something though, isn’t the HDR metadata supposed to be there precisely to determine, frame by frame or scene by scene, what the picture is supposed to look like?

HDR10 does not have metadata. It’s just plain old HDR (Rec.2020 ST.2084), and nothing else.

Dolby Vision has metadata which contains information that trims down the the Rec.2020 ST.2084 (HDR) source to a Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 (SDR) output. But to my knowledge, that metadata from the disc is only readable on a TV.

You could import the Rec.2020 ST.2084 source into DaVinci Resolve and run it through Resolve’s Dolby Vision scan, and that will give you brand new SDR metadata which you could use to export an SDR video. However, it won’t have the nuances and custom adjustments that the colorist would have made for the original Dolby Vision pass.

I should also note, as a reminder, that HDR footage is similar to log camera footage – meaning, it has much more latitude to work with than SDR footage. So if you’re doing fan restorations, it’s better to NOT bake in an SDR conversion. It’s best to do color work within HDR, and then have your SDR conversion at the very end of the chain. That’s the workflow that this tutorial of mine hopefully illustrates.

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44rh1n said:

winoni71 said:
P.S.: I don’t’ understand something though, isn’t the HDR metadata supposed to be there precisely to determine, frame by frame or scene by scene, what the picture is supposed to look like?

HDR10 does not have metadata. It’s just plain old HDR (Rec.2020 ST.2084), and nothing else.

Dolby Vision has metadata which contains information that trims down the the Rec.2020 ST.2084 (HDR) source to a Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 (SDR) output. But to my knowledge, that metadata from the disc is only readable on a TV.

You could import the Rec.2020 ST.2084 source into DaVinci Resolve and run it through Resolve’s Dolby Vision scan, and that will give you brand new SDR metadata which you could use to export an SDR video. However, it won’t have the nuances and custom adjustments that the colorist would have made for the original Dolby Vision pass.

I should also note, as a reminder, that HDR footage is similar to log camera footage – meaning, it has much more latitude to work with than SDR footage. So if you’re doing fan restorations, it’s better to NOT bake in an SDR conversion. It’s best to do color work within HDR, and then have your SDR conversion at the very end of the chain. That’s the workflow that this tutorial of mine hopefully illustrates.

My head hurts, this is very confusing.
If there’s no metadata, then how can each scene be graded differently and why is it so difficult to make a conversion to SDR?

I’m not looking to make a restoration, but to have an “all-purpose” method to convert HDR to SDR while preserving (as much as possible, without grading scene by scene) the visual characteristics, I’m not looking for perfection.

Knowing this, having at my disposal both Abode Premier PRO and Resolve Studio, what would you recommend to achieve what I’m looking for?

Thank you.

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winoni71 said:
My head hurts, this is very confusing.
If there’s no metadata, then how can each scene be graded differently and why is it so difficult to make a conversion to SDR?

Metadata, or the lack thereof, has nothing to do with one’s ability to grade each shot of a film differently from the next.

The reason you’ll likely need to make adjustments on a shot-by-shot basis is because HDR (Rec.2020/ST.2084) has a completely different color space and gamma than SDR (Rec.709/Gamma 2.4). There’s no one-size-fits-all approach to a downconversion. They’re entirely different formats, with entirely different ranges of color and luminance. So you’re likely never going to find a one-click solution that’s perfect.

winoni71 said:
I’m not looking to make a restoration, but to have an “all-purpose” method to convert HDR to SDR while preserving (as much as possible, without grading scene by scene) the visual characteristics, I’m not looking for perfection.

If you’re looking for an easy solution that doesn’t involve performing shot-by-shot corrections, then you can use a Color Space Transform effect (as illustrated in this tutorial above), a LUT, or you can do the method that another user above suggested in Premiere. Just know that it’s a technical conversion, not a creative one. So while it’s an accurate HDR-To-SDR conversion, it might not always look how you want it to look.

If you’re not doing fan restorations / preservations, then might I ask why you’re interested in doing this in the first place? Wouldn’t it just make more sense to buy the 1080p SDR versions of the movies you want to watch? Or better, get a 4K Blu-ray player? (If you have the funds, that is.)

winoni71 said:
Knowing this, having at my disposal both Abode Premier PRO and Resolve Studio, what would you recommend to achieve what I’m looking for?

Thank you.

If you have Resolve Studio (the PAID version of Resolve), then I would recommend trying out the automatic Dolby Vision trim analysis. This will do an automatic per-shot conversion from HDR to SDR. So rather than a single one-size-fits-all approach, it will treat each shot individually.

1). Bring the film into the Media Pool (you’ll get much faster performance if you convert to ProRes first, as illustrated in the tutorial at the beginning of this thread. But if you have a fast computer then the original HEVC should work).

2). Go to your Project Settings and change the Color Management timeline color space to Rec.2100 ST.2084. Then check the “Enable Dolby Vision” checkbox.

**Important: Ensure “Mastering Display” is set to “1000-nit, BT.2020, D65, ST.2084, Full.” That is the correct option for most 4K Blu-rays. However, for some 4K Blu-rays that are mastered at 4000-nits, you’ll want to select the “4000-nit, BT.2020” option. ALSO: make sure the resolution and framerate are correct in the the Master Settings.

3). Add the film to a new timeline (make sure the timeline has the same framerate and resolution as your movie). The image should look flat and ugly on an SDR GUI display.

4). On the Edit page, select the movie in the timeline and then go to menu item “Timeline > Detect Scene Cuts.” This will take a while, but it will analyze the movie and make physical cuts to every cut in the film. Once it’s done, scrub through to make sure it didn’t add cuts where it shouldn’t have.

5). Navigate to the Color page and click on the Dolby Vision button on the bottom left region of the screen (the button won’t be there unless you enable Dolby Vision, as mentioned in step 2).

6). Ensure the Target Display Output is set to “100-nit, BT.709, BT.1886, Full.”

7). Click Analyze All. (And leave Enable Tone Mapping Preview selected). Once it’s done, you’ll notice that the image no longer looks flat and ugly because you’re now seeing the SDR version created by the Dolby Vision analysis.

**Important: If the movie is wider than 16x9 (includes black bars), then the black will need to be excluded from the output, otherwise the black in every scene will skew the analysis. This can be done by selecting Timeline > Output Blanking. There are some great presets for different aspect ratios. If none of those presets are correct for your film, you can create custom Output Blanking by navigating to the “Sizing” button in the middle-right of the GUI, changing the dropdown menu to “Output Sizing,” and then you can adjust the “Blanking” sliders. Or you can physically crop the top and bottom of the video by changing the timeline resolution and image scaling settings in the Project Settings.

8). Lastly, go to the delivery page and set whatever export settings you desire (again, I always recommend ProRes, but the settings you would pick depend on your needs). ***Then go to Advanced Settings, and change the Tone Mapping to Dolby Vision. Ensure the selected option under Dolby Vision is “100-nit, BT.709, BT.1886, Full.” Once you’ve got all your export settings enabled and you’ve selected the Dolby Vision tonemapping, you can add the export to your Render Queue and export it out.

Now you’ll have a beautiful SDR version of the film derived from brand new Dolby Vision metadata that you created yourself. 😃

Hope that helps.

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44rh1n thank you for the tutorial about the Dolby Vision trim analysis. I’ve just begun using Resolve, and your helpful tips are much appreciated. This analysis also seems to be exactly what winoni71 was looking for as well. I will certainly be trying this on an upcoming edit. And based on your comment: “Once it’s done, you’ll notice that the image no longer looks flat and ugly because you’re now seeing the SDR version created by the Dolby Vision analysis.” it looks like I can further color grade after the analysis and before the rendering. Sweet!

EDIT: or perhaps a best practice for users of Resolve would be be to import the file container with HEVC HDR into Premiere, apply the Dolby vision, and export that to a DNxHD or DNxHR to be used as the new source to edit?

learn about my fanedits at https://krausfadr.wordpress.com/
heil palpatine.

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krausfadr said:

And based on your comment: “Once it’s done, you’ll notice that the image no longer looks flat and ugly because you’re now seeing the SDR version created by the Dolby Vision analysis.” it looks like I can further color grade after the analysis and before the rendering. Sweet!

Yes, you can do color adjustments after the Dolby Vision trim analysis, and your GUI screen will show those adjustments with the new SDR tonemapping applied on top.

krausfadr said:

EDIT: or perhaps a best practice for users of Resolve would be be to import the file container with HEVC HDR into Premiere, apply the Dolby vision, and export that to a DNxHD or DNxHR to be used as the new source to edit?

I personally recommend using the HDR version of the film as the source. This way, any fan restoration or fan edit you’ve made will be preserved in HDR, so your work is future-proofed and you can make an HDR version in the future after HDR grading monitors come down in price. Regardless of what method you choose to convert HDR to SDR (whether you use a Color Space Transform or the Dolby Vision analysis), you’ll still be able to export in SDR. You just also have the flexibility to make an HDR version in the future without having to redo the edit from scratch.

But if you bake out the SDR conversion and then use that as a new source, you’re actually limiting your ability to make color adjustments because the “new” SDR source has less dynamic range and a smaller color gamut than the original HDR source. And you also won’t have a future-proofed edit that can be used to create an HDR master in the future, if desired.

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So I’m running into some trouble with Davinci resolve in terms of lut creations. It was working fine with premiere pro when the file decided to stop using the lut right and now all the colors are washed out. Any solution to this? Also I may have found a way to get around the large files sizes on the studio version by using H.265 removing data burn in and marking the clip as REC. 709

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44rh1n said:

7). Click Analyze All. (And leave Enable Tone Mapping Preview selected). Once it’s done, you’ll notice that the image no longer looks flat and ugly because you’re now seeing the SDR version created by the Dolby Vision analysis.

One extra step should be performed: if the video image itself includes the cropping black bars then these will need to be excluded from the output, otherwise the black in every scene will skew the analysis. This can be done by selecting Timeline > output blanking. Or otherwise manually cropping the top and bottom.

learn about my fanedits at https://krausfadr.wordpress.com/
heil palpatine.

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 (Edited)

krausfadr said:

44rh1n said:

7). Click Analyze All. (And leave Enable Tone Mapping Preview selected). Once it’s done, you’ll notice that the image no longer looks flat and ugly because you’re now seeing the SDR version created by the Dolby Vision analysis.

One extra step should be performed: if the video image itself includes the cropping black bars then these will need to be excluded from the output, otherwise the black in every scene will skew the analysis. This can be done by selecting Timeline > output blanking. Or otherwise manually cropping the top and bottom.

Yes! Thank you for mentioning this. I forgot to say this, but this is true. I’ll add it to my post above. I also forgot to mention the Mastering Display setting, so I’ve added that to step 2 as well. It’s important to set it to BT.2020 rather than P3, otherwise the colors won’t be quite right.

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44rh1n, also of note regarding importing HEVC rips into resolve:
when I imported a “23.976” FPS 4k mp4 rewrapped from an mkv rip, resolve had severe sporadic framerate problems with the import itself, even with the “correct” master settings for timeline and playback (23.976). original 4K UHD disc framerate was actually variable unfortunately. some frames in the resolve import were duplicated resulting in occasional stuttered, laggy video (in timeline and in the final export), which I didn’t realize until far into the editing project when I stumbled across a duplicated frame. as a test, reimported a new project in resolve at 24 FPS in master settings (timeline and playback) with the same bad result. so then I imported the same mp4 into premiere and every frame was perfect (albeit no real HDR support). ultimately I had to use hybrid to create a prores which resolve imported perfectly with no frame issues. resolve is a great program but very buggy when it comes to certain things premiere handles with ease. using hybrid before the import to resolve is a reliable way to avoid possible issues.

EDIT: note in my original editing project I used cineform mov files exported from resolve. I don’t edit directly in HEVC or H264.

learn about my fanedits at https://krausfadr.wordpress.com/
heil palpatine.