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Info: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 347

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 (Edited)

Posting this here from Adywan’s ROTJ thread so it doesn’t continue to clutter it up:

NeverarGreat said:

Chewie’s introduction in the cell is one of the few changes I’d really like to see in even a ‘soft’ fanedit like this. It’s basically a plot hole that Chewie isn’t captured, since 3PO says ‘Lando Calrissian and poor Chewbacca never returned from this awful place’.

To make it work, Boushh’s bargain with Jabba should be cut, leaving only the brief word between Boushh and 3PO after the negotiation. Boushh would need to be dubbed to say more alien words, and subtitled so she says ‘We captured Chewbacca’ or ‘We captured the Wookiee’. Her glance at Boba Fett, who nods in return, explain the presence of Boba Fett and make sense of the scheme: She needed the trust of a renowned bounty hunter to gain admittance to the palace, not just Chewie and a disguise. Finally, we see Lando in a guard uniform, and can piece together the plan - Luke sends the droids as a peace offering, and if that fails there are two people inside the palace who can rescue Han, Chewie, and the droids. When this fails as well, it falls to Luke to rescue them all.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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Here’s how I think this change would work:

After the dancer gets eaten by the Rancor, the band begins to play and the first shot of Boushh is when she’s face-to-face with C-3PO. She dismisses Bib Fortuna and says to the robot something like ‘It was us, who captured the wookiee’. This uses audio from the negotiation scene (which has been completely cut), and carries over to the next shot of Boba Fett nodding. Chewie is cut from the scene entirely, of course, and the final shot is of Lando, which cuts before he pulls the face mask down. Cue frog outside the palace.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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I think all that could even go. I mean we don’t need it. I’m working on a mock-up that has it transition directly from the close up of han in Carbonite to nighttime when Leia goes to save him.

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Hey NeverarGreat,

Re-posting this from Ady’s thread to await your response, though I get the feeling whatever that response may be I still won’t agree in the end as we seem to have fairly opposed views on the matter:

Valheru_84 said:

NeverarGreat said:

Every issue with the rescue plan could be explained away (as indeed you do), it’s just that it takes quite a bit of thinking to even parse it out. This change fixes the contradictory information from 3PO, shortens the Jabba sequence by 2.5 minutes, and strengthens Leia’s cover story while involving Boba Fett in the plot.

Again, I respectfully disagree. These matters never stood out when watching the movie as I guess my imagination did a pretty quick job of filling in any subconscious blanks in the story’s logic which had it not, it would have grabbed my attention and drawn me out of the movie to focus on the then noticeable inconsistency or plot hole. The explanations I provide above only get a bit lengthy in actually trying to draw them out of more of an impression that fills that gap and put them into written form in how it all makes perfect sense to me when watching the movie. What I wrote above is not what I am literally thinking when watching the movie but what I get when I sit back and critically think about how to explain what the movie has implanted in my brain in telling the unseen story through actual scenes and plot inferences when faced with the issues you and other raise with these scenes. I don’t believe C3-POs line is in any shape or form a plot hole and if it was, surely this would be dead set obvious one to the actual film makers at the time and rectified rather than leaving it in if the intent was not instead to simply infer that he has no clue whatsoever as to the actual plan? The later seems by far the simpler and more logical explanation in this case (as I’m not immune in the slightest to actual plot holes that deserve mentioning).

On the other matters:

  • Why is shortening the Jabba sequence a good thing?
  • How does it strengthen Leia’s cover story? From my perspective, removing C3-POs line only removes the inference that he’s been kept out of the loop for confidentially reasons that the mission depends on.
  • What is the reasoning for involving Fett in the plot? Seems contradictory to include the bounty hunter that put Han there in the first place and until the PT, wasn’t that a character that we actually saw a real lot of or knew that much about if only taking into account the information gleaned from simply watching the movies?

.Val

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 (Edited)

The view of many people on this forum is that there’s something wrong with the Jabba’s palace sequence. It’s more open to debate as to what, exactly, is the culprit, but there are plenty of candidates which have been suggested in the past:

-There are too many poorly designed muppets
-The plan makes little to no sense, or if it does it relies too much on luck (or the Force)
-The palace sequence drags on too long
-There’s a musical number that serves no narrative function
-Characters (such as Boba Fett) are poorly defined or (in the case of Han Solo) overly quippy.
-The palace seems at times like a heavily defended fortress and other times like the Mos Eisley cantina in terms of security
-The action and effects, especially on the sail barge, are stodgy.

The last time I marathoned the entire trilogy, it was abundantly clear that there was something wrong with ROTJ compared to the previous installments. From the first act to the last, I was continually disappointed in how little of the film really resonated. I have faith that Adywan can solve much of the stodgy action and effects on the sail barge, but believe that the problems with the palace sequence go beyond superficial fixes and require editorial changes.

The reason I chose the Wookiee scene to cut is that the scene is really emblematic of the problems in this section of the film. To sum up the scene, Leia is apparently able to bring a high explosive and an uncuffed, violent Wookiee twice her size into Jabba’s audience chamber, no questions asked. It really takes the threat out of Jabba’s security if anyone dressed like a bounty hunter can get in and threaten his life with no repercussions. Even How It Should Have Ended made fun of the thermal detonator.

The edit strengthens Leia’s cover story because she has apparently gained the trust of a famous bounty hunter. This explains Fett’s presence, since it doesn’t make much sense that he’d just hang around the palace for weeks or months after delivering Han Solo. Doesn’t he have anything better to do? In this version, he did: help Boushh capture Chewbacca.

JEDIT: Here’s a rough mockup: https://vimeo.com/235057281
Password: boushh

I also noticed when editing this that Boushh only has about 3 different words, not really enough for this brief exchange much less an entire scene.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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NeverarGreat said:

The view of many people on this forum is that there’s something wrong with the Jabba’s palace sequence. It’s more open to debate as to what, exactly, is the culprit, but there are plenty of candidates which have been suggested in the past:

-There are too many poorly designed muppets
-The plan makes little to no sense, or if it does it relies too much on luck (or the Force)
-The palace sequence drags on too long
-There’s a musical number that serves no narrative function
-Characters (such as Boba Fett) are poorly defined or (in the case of Han Solo) overly quippy.
-The palace seems at times like a heavily defended fortress and other times like the Mos Eisley cantina in terms of security
-The action and effects, especially on the sail barge, are stodgy.

The last time I marathoned the entire trilogy, it was abundantly clear that there was something wrong with ROTJ compared to the previous installments. From the first act to the last, I was continually disappointed in how little of the film really resonated. I have faith that Adywan can solve much of the stodgy action and effects on the sail barge, but believe that the problems with the palace sequence go beyond superficial fixes and require editorial changes.

The reason I chose the Wookiee scene to cut is that the scene is really emblematic of the problems in this section of the film. To sum up the scene, Leia is apparently able to bring a high explosive and an uncuffed, violent Wookiee twice her size into Jabba’s audience chamber, no questions asked. It really takes the threat out of Jabba’s security if anyone dressed like a bounty hunter can get in and threaten his life with no repercussions. Even How It Should Have Ended made fun of the thermal detonator.

This, all of this. I see we’re definitely on the same page, NeverarGreat, in terms of what things can be handled better about the Jabba sequence (assuming you agree with that list you just typed), but it seems it’s just how it can be improved is where we differ. I’m still not at all convinced that having Leia be involved with bringing in Chewie is a good idea/plan. I totally do understand your reasoning with your suggestion, it’s just I’d much prefer to steer away from having her giving up Chewie. Her motivation in doing this (based on just your dialogue as it is) would not be deduced to those who aren’t here reading about it, and so it would confuse most audience members because, really, how could there be no other possible way for her to get in without sacrificing Chewie? You never surrender one of your friends in hopes of getting another, otherwise you’re back at square one (or as it turns out, in a worse scenario)! That’s what I hated about this sequence originally.

Plus, you mentioned that the dance sequence serves no narrative purpose, which I totally agree and hope that gets removed too (unless Ady wanted to do a condensed, hybrid of the SE and OUT shots featuring just the dancers with new music [tribal drums/Japanese Taiko-esque] and moved to the intro of Jabba - that I’m completely cool with), and so if that were totally removed, where else would your short scene fit?

So, ideally, I’m of the opinion that the sequences would work best as: Torcher chamber (I know many don’t like this but it’s actually needed to establish the jobs that the droids will be given), then after that a wipe to an establishing, scenic, night shot of the palace outside (without a distracting frog slurping up some thing), then it continues with the shots of Leia sneaking around inside the palace (we don’t have to know it’s her before she takes off the mask either; although, prior to this, a shot of her in disguise that establishes that she is already inside, just like Lando is, would be a good idea).

Wishlist Of Ideas/Suggestions For Improving ROTJ

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NeverarGreat said:

The view of many people on this forum is that there’s something wrong with the Jabba’s palace sequence. It’s more open to debate as to what, exactly, is the culprit, but there are plenty of candidates which have been suggested in the past:

-There are too many poorly designed muppets
-The plan makes little to no sense, or if it does it relies too much on luck (or the Force)
-The palace sequence drags on too long
-There’s a musical number that serves no narrative function
-Characters (such as Boba Fett) are poorly defined or (in the case of Han Solo) overly quippy.
-The palace seems at times like a heavily defended fortress and other times like the Mos Eisley cantina in terms of security
-The action and effects, especially on the sail barge, are stodgy.

The last time I marathoned the entire trilogy, it was abundantly clear that there was something wrong with ROTJ compared to the previous installments. From the first act to the last, I was continually disappointed in how little of the film really resonated. I have faith that Adywan can solve much of the stodgy action and effects on the sail barge, but believe that the problems with the palace sequence go beyond superficial fixes and require editorial changes.

The reason I chose the Wookiee scene to cut is that the scene is really emblematic of the problems in this section of the film. To sum up the scene, Leia is apparently able to bring a high explosive and an uncuffed, violent Wookiee twice her size into Jabba’s audience chamber, no questions asked. It really takes the threat out of Jabba’s security if anyone dressed like a bounty hunter can get in and threaten his life with no repercussions. Even How It Should Have Ended made fun of the thermal detonator.

The edit strengthens Leia’s cover story because she has apparently gained the trust of a famous bounty hunter. This explains Fett’s presence, since it doesn’t make much sense that he’d just hang around the palace for weeks or months after delivering Han Solo. Doesn’t he have anything better to do? In this version, he did: help Boushh capture Chewbacca.

JEDIT: Here’s a rough mockup: https://vimeo.com/235057281
Password: boushh

I also noticed when editing this that Boushh only has about 3 different words, not really enough for this brief exchange much less an entire scene.

I’m with this all the way.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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 (Edited)

.Mac. said:

NeverarGreat said:

The view of many people on this forum is that there’s something wrong with the Jabba’s palace sequence. It’s more open to debate as to what, exactly, is the culprit, but there are plenty of candidates which have been suggested in the past:

-There are too many poorly designed muppets
-The plan makes little to no sense, or if it does it relies too much on luck (or the Force)
-The palace sequence drags on too long
-There’s a musical number that serves no narrative function
-Characters (such as Boba Fett) are poorly defined or (in the case of Han Solo) overly quippy.
-The palace seems at times like a heavily defended fortress and other times like the Mos Eisley cantina in terms of security
-The action and effects, especially on the sail barge, are stodgy.

The last time I marathoned the entire trilogy, it was abundantly clear that there was something wrong with ROTJ compared to the previous installments. From the first act to the last, I was continually disappointed in how little of the film really resonated. I have faith that Adywan can solve much of the stodgy action and effects on the sail barge, but believe that the problems with the palace sequence go beyond superficial fixes and require editorial changes.

The reason I chose the Wookiee scene to cut is that the scene is really emblematic of the problems in this section of the film. To sum up the scene, Leia is apparently able to bring a high explosive and an uncuffed, violent Wookiee twice her size into Jabba’s audience chamber, no questions asked. It really takes the threat out of Jabba’s security if anyone dressed like a bounty hunter can get in and threaten his life with no repercussions. Even How It Should Have Ended made fun of the thermal detonator.

This, all of this. I see we’re definitely on the same page, NeverarGreat, in terms of what things can be handled better about the Jabba sequence (assuming you agree with that list you just typed), but it seems it’s just how it can be improved is where we differ. I’m still not at all convinced that having Leia be involved with bringing in Chewie is a good idea/plan. I totally do understand your reasoning with your suggestion, it’s just I’d much prefer to steer away from having her giving up Chewie. Her motivation in doing this (based on just your dialogue as it is) would not be deduced to those who aren’t here reading about it, and so it would confuse most audience members because, really, how could there be no other possible way for her to get in without sacrificing Chewie? You never surrender one of your friends in hopes of getting another, otherwise you’re back at square one (or as it turns out, in a worse scenario)! That’s what I hated about this sequence originally.

Plus, you mentioned that the dance sequence serves no narrative purpose, which I totally agree and hope that gets removed too (unless Ady wanted to do a condensed, hybrid of the SE and OUT shots featuring just the dancers with new music [tribal drums/Japanese Taiko-esque] and moved to the intro of Jabba - that I’m completely cool with), and so if that were totally removed, where else would your short scene fit?

So, ideally, I’m of the opinion that the sequences would work best as: Torcher chamber (I know many don’t like this but it’s actually needed to establish the jobs that the droids will be given), then after that a wipe to an establishing, scenic, night shot of the palace outside (without a distracting frog slurping up some thing), then it continues with the shots of Leia sneaking around inside the palace (we don’t have to know it’s her before she takes off the mask either; although, prior to this, a shot of her in disguise that establishes that she is already inside, just like Lando is, would be a good idea).

It sounds like you want to go further than my edit by removing all mention of Chewie save for 3PO establishing his imprisonment. I am totally with you that Leia bringing Chewie in isn’t the best decision. But there’s no stated reason for Chewie to be there, and we just have to imagine that he was captured at some point. I suppose that would be fine.

Here’s a wacky idea that just might work: Have Boushh release a sedative through the palace at nightfall. She could indicate this in her dialogue to 3PO: “The gas will clear at nightfall. Be ready.” Just replace the previous dialogue in the mockup with this.

This explains the extremely alien language and gas mask part of her disguise, and why she thinks sneaking through a hall of dozens of sleeping scoundrels will work. To make it even cooler, there could be a visible cloud of gas in the hall which is clearing as she makes her way to the Carbonite slab. Of course the plan fails at some point when 3PO blabs. I’d prefer metal doors instead of curtains to block the gas but oh well, curtains would probably suffice against a widely dispersed sedative traveling through air currents.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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 (Edited)

How about this - Boushh informs C-3PO: ‘Chewie will be outside the exit. Don’t be late’.
Then after Leia’s plan (preferably with gas) goes south, we see Chewie getting thrown in prison and then Han is thrown in with him. This doesn’t allow for the Chewie reveal, but at least it makes some sense. 3PO (and R2) needed to know something about the plan, if nothing more than when and where to leave the building. R2 would already know, but it makes sense for Boushh to tell 3PO at the last possible time so as to minimize the chance of him screwing things up. Of course he blabs anyway, and it’s enough to get Chewie caught.

C-3PO’s dialogue ‘Lando Calrissian and poor Chewbacca never returned from this awful place’ makes sense, since they’re working together. Lando’s the inside man, Chewie’s on the outside.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Here’s my take on the rescue plan. In order to “fix” the rescue plan I first wanted to understand what the plan actually WAS so that we could then remove any elements that contradict or work against it.

Plan A: The droids arrange for a meeting with Luke. Luke plans to negotiate/ use a Jedi mind trick to get Jabba to release everyone. Luke either gets the droids out as part of the deal or leaves them for Lando to smuggle out.

Outcome: Jabba rules this out immediately upon hearing Luke’s message. Lando presumably informs the team that Plan A has failed.

Plan B: Leia infiltrates Jabba’s court and attempts to break Han out. The haste of the plan means that she must sacrifice Chewbacca to buy credibility. If successful, this plan requires Lando to smuggle Chewie and the droids out later.

Outcome: Jabba doesn’t fall for the deception. Everyone is captured now except for Lando and Luke. Lando presumably informs Luke.

Luke arrives and makes one last attempt at Plan A. This fails, leaving…

Plan C: Everyone to fight their way out. Luke was likely hoping that Artoo would be present to provide his smuggled lightsaber but with Artoo absent Luke resorts to stealing a blaster. Whether he planned to kill or merely threaten Jabba is unknown.

Outcome: Everyone captured.

So what elements of the film do I feel work against this?

  1. The need for the word “presumably” in my summaries speaks at least to the perception of the plans complexity. The audience is left to piece a lot of it together. In fact it wasn’t until I wrote it all down that it made some sort of sense.
  2. The “Flanderization” of C-3PO. While Threepio is certainly a worrywart, that personality trait has become a caricature in ROTJ. In ANH, Threepio successfully bluffed past Stormtroopers on the Death Star and was decisive in choosing when to leave hiding and try to board the Falcon. In ROTJ the caricature version of Threepio has been left out of the plan and (because of his ignorance) could easily work against it at any moment.
  3. Poor execution of the Boushh deception. Chewbacca is brought in with only a neck restraint, while in ANH they knew that binders was a better sell. Red flags were raised with Chewie overpowering Jabba’s guard in the stairwell but allowing Boushh to so easily tame him.
  4. Luke’s overconfidence on the skiff in claiming that everything was under control when all plans had failed by this point.

Potential improvements:

Plan transitions: Would it help if we made the transition from Plan A to Plan B more obviously necessary? We’re limited to what we can do with what footage we have. One easy target would be through Jabba’s subtitles. E.g. Currently Jabba’s dialogue that puts an end to Plan A is as follows:

“There will be no bargain.
I will not give up my favorite decoration.
I like Captain Solo where he is.”

Perhaps it could be expanded as follows:

“There will be no bargain.
If this so-called Jedi shows his face, kill him.
I will not give up my favorite decoration.
I like Captain Solo where he is.”

Strengthen C-3PO: Start by strengthening Threepio’s character by removing obvious dialogue like “Oh look, its Captain Solo and he’s still frozen in carbonite” and “Oh no, Chewbacca”.

Next remove dialogue that shows him to be ignorant of the plan. Going one step further, can we incorporate him into the plan? A few people have already mentioned the brief scene after the Chewbacca exchange where Boushh is facing Threepio (just prior to the Boba Fett nod). Subtitled audio of Boushh could say something like:

“Stick to the Plan. Tonight.”

A few moments later we see Lando in disguise, so we know that something is afoot.

Selling Boushh: Instead of having Chewbacca shove the guard, would it be possible for him to be killed by blaster? Would it be possible to add additional chains to Chewbacca?

Luke’s overconfidence: Cut Luke’s line:

Just stick close to Chewie and Lando. I’ve taken care of everything.
As well as Han’s response.

Those are just my humble $0.02.

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Great post, nhoj.
You’ve got several good points here, but this is something that isn’t brought up often and should not be overlooked:

nhoj3 said:

While Threepio is certainly a worrywart, that personality trait has become a caricature in ROTJ. In ANH, Threepio successfully bluffed past Stormtroopers on the Death Star and was decisive in choosing when to leave hiding and try to board the Falcon. In ROTJ the caricature version of Threepio has been left out of the plan and (because of his ignorance) could easily work against it at any moment.

This shift from characters to caricatures infects many characters and aspects of ROTJ and is something every ROTJ fanedit should fight against.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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nhoj3, solid analysis. I’m sure many others have broken down the plan in a similar way. I also came to a similar conclusion when I first started thinking about fanediting ROTJ. After some time I tried to think of a simpler solution that would require less changes, since even this multiple back-up plan theory stills seems overly complicated. But after some time, I think that maybe Luke’s plan was to get to the Sarlacc all along, and to get as much back-up there for the escape as possible.

How does this work? It works under the assumption that Lando has learned the ins-and-outs of Jabba’s palace since he has been undercover. Maybe Lando came to the conclusion that escaping the palace was almost impossible, and Jabba would be unwilling to bargain. Jabba himself is practically untouchable, but one of the few times Jabba leaves his palace with only a fraction of his guards is when he goes to the Pit of Carkoon for executions. So, instead of someone having to escape the heavily fortified palace, Jabba literally takes prisoners out of his fortress and practically hands them a getaway vehicle (the skiffs).

With this in mind, things can start to make more sense. Luke “gifted” the droids to Jabba in order to get them conveniently placed jobs that get them on the inside (maybe Lando sabotaged the previous barge droid and translator). Chewbacca was brought in as extra muscle for the sail barge escape and as a means for Leia to get in. Leia’s mission was to get Han out of the carbonite, but she went in knowing that actual escape was unlikely. I don’t think they planned for Leia to be made into a slave girl, but Leia did make it work in the end. Bottomline, Han had to be let out, otherwise he would be left frozen in the palace while everyone else went to the Sarlacc to be killed.

And if you think about it, Lando could have let Han out himself, but actually getting out of the palace was pretty much impossible, and they needed as much back-up as possible for the sail barge escape, which I think was why Leia and Chewie were brought into it. And with Lando compromised, they wouldn’t have anyone on the inside to make sure that all the pieces were where they needed to be.

Then it comes down to Luke. Luke’s job would be to take out the Rancor, the only other man-eating creature keeping them from the Sarlacc (and their escape). I think Lando obviously would have told Luke about the trap floor, which makes me think falling into the Rancor Pit was intentional. Once that inital means of execution was out of the way, the only thing left to satisfy Jabba’s well-known ego was to kill his enemies with the Sarlacc. Everything points to it; R2, Chewie and Luke seem confident the whole time, R2 is exactly where he needs to be with the lightsaber, and everybody is nodding their heads at each other like this is exactly where they wanted to be. Maybe they just didn’t tell 3PO so they could add an air of authenticity to the situation. They can’t all be cool, calm and collected.

And I think there would only need to be minimal changes to help this plan be clearer.

  • I would rather remove as little footage as possible, but when Luke is in the Rancor Pit, you could cut a shot or two of him desperately trying to get out through the door. If he needs to kill the Rancor, he shouldn’t be trying to escape just yet. So show him running across the pit, cut to the Rancor turning around, then cut back to Luke looking for the gate switch.

  • Another change that could help would be to add/alter a line from Jabba. For example, when Leia and Han get caught by Jabba, he says something before Han starts trying to talk his way out of it (like he always does, EVERY TIME), but there are no subtitles there. Maybe Jabba could say something about how escaping his palace is impossible, or how they never would have gotten past all of his guards, or how no one leaves his palace unless he allows it, etc. There may be a better place to put this kind of line, but a line like this could help foreshadow or hint to the plan.

  • A third, not completely necessary change would be to add more guards throughout his palace.

Personally, I’ve accepted this as their plan and I think the movie already works pretty well as is with that in mind. The main thing that sticks out to me is Luke trying to get out of the Rancor Pit, but one could probably rationalize that somehow. These changes might help make that plan clearer if Adywan or another editor felt the need to clarify the plan.

Sorry for the long post, just thought I would put this idea out there while it was on topic.

TL;DR The Han Rescue Plan was to get to the Sarlacc Pit. It was the easiest way to get everyone out of the palace, away from the majority of Jabba’s guards, and to get a free escape vehicle.

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 (Edited)

nhoj3 said:

Here’s my take on the rescue plan. In order to “fix” the rescue plan I first wanted to understand what the plan actually WAS so that we could then remove any elements that contradict or work against it.

Plan A: The droids arrange for a meeting with Luke. Luke plans to negotiate/ use a Jedi mind trick to get Jabba to release everyone. Luke either gets the droids out as part of the deal or leaves them for Lando to smuggle out.

Outcome: Jabba rules this out immediately upon hearing Luke’s message. Lando presumably informs the team that Plan A has failed.

Plan B: Leia infiltrates Jabba’s court and attempts to break Han out. The haste of the plan means that she must sacrifice Chewbacca to buy credibility. If successful, this plan requires Lando to smuggle Chewie and the droids out later.

Outcome: Jabba doesn’t fall for the deception. Everyone is captured now except for Lando and Luke. Lando presumably informs Luke.

Luke arrives and makes one last attempt at Plan A. This fails, leaving…

Plan C: Everyone to fight their way out. Luke was likely hoping that Artoo would be present to provide his smuggled lightsaber but with Artoo absent Luke resorts to stealing a blaster. Whether he planned to kill or merely threaten Jabba is unknown.

Outcome: Everyone captured.

I understand what you are trying to do, but I think “THE PLAN” can not be fixed. Superficial elements maybe can get fixed, but the real the problems are deeper.

nhoj3 said:
So what elements of the film do I feel work against this?

For one, it makes no sense to send Threepio with Artoo. He has no part in any kinda rescue, so he is in there for no logical reason.
The only way to fix this is to erase Threepio completely.
The only REAL reason that 3PO is in there because he is a major character so I don’t think that would do any good to the movie.

It makes no sense to send Leia.
After sending the droids the only thing has failed is to gain easy entry to Jabba’s palace, what plan A would have achieved.
So if anyone should go next, it is Luke.
Use the Jedi mind trick and get out.
But it would make more sense to go together. Try the mind trick, and if it does not work, shoot your way out.
Especially makes no sense to send Leia, because they have to sacrifice Chewie to gain entry. (not to buy credibility)
Luke can gain entry without sacrificing Chewie.
So Plan B makes very little sense.
The only reason to send in Leia while sacrificing Chewie, could be to get Han out of the carbonite, and attempt to get him out of the palace. He is weak and a burden, and if it comes to a break out, rather break out Chewie than Han.
But if the plan is to use the mind trick, there is no need to get Han out of the carbonite.
So actually the only reason that Leia is in, that she has to be involved somehow. Just as Threepio.
To fix this you have to erase Leia completely, but I don’t think that would do any good to the movie

To this point nothing can be fixed with THE PLAN, because we have two characters who have no logical reason to be there.
The plan sucks, because the major characters must be involved in a major way, except Chewie, who was always merely support, so we just have to go with what we’ve got

nhoj3 said:
If this so-called Jedi shows his face, kill him.

I don’t think adding this would fix or improve anything. We already know where Jabba stands.

nhoj3 said:
2. The “Flanderization” of C-3PO. While Threepio is certainly a worrywart, that personality trait has become a caricature in ROTJ. In ANH, Threepio successfully bluffed past Stormtroopers on the Death Star and was decisive in choosing when to leave hiding and try to board the Falcon. In ROTJ the caricature version of Threepio has been left out of the plan and (because of his ignorance) could easily work against it at any moment.

Strengthen C-3PO: Start by strengthening Threepio’s character by removing obvious dialogue like “Oh look, its Captain Solo and he’s still frozen in carbonite” and “Oh no, Chewbacca”.

I agree with your insight on Threepio.
But it’s Threepio’s line that reveals Solo for us.
“Oh no, Chewbacca” could go. Adds nothing anyway, but cutting this would not strenghten Threepio that much that one would notice I guess.

  1. Poor execution of the Boushh deception. Chewbacca is brought in with only a neck restraint, while in ANH they knew that binders was a better sell. Red flags were raised with Chewie overpowering Jabba’s guard in the stairwell but allowing Boushh to so easily tame him.

That is something that makes sense. The chain leash always bothered me to. What we see is ridiculous.
Not to mention the contrast of the two characters. Chewie should be cuffed and in chains, while the bounty hunter shoves him with a rifle to make him move.
Then again, you think is there anything that can be done with the footage, to make this scene believable?

nhoj3 said:
4. Luke’s overconfidence on the skiff in claiming that everything was under control when all plans had failed by this point.

Well, I guess, it only makes sense that he is confident in his plan, because the audience is not.
Here is where I would use outside help, that actually could be added by Adywan.
If there was an attack on the barge at the Sarlacc Pit, that would make THE PLAN somewhat credible, and would suggest a good chance of survivability.
As it is now, Luke nearly gets everyone killed at the pit. It is a miracle that anyone survives this, not to mention everyone.

Even Leia strangling Jabba could be cut, and just blow up the barge.

nhoj3 said:
A few people have already mentioned the brief scene after the Chewbacca exchange where Boushh is facing Threepio (just prior to the Boba Fett nod). Subtitled audio of Boushh could say something like:

“Stick to the Plan. Tonight.”

A few moments later we see Lando in disguise, so we know that something is afoot.

An important rule of infiltration, if you not suppose to know someone, do not make contact, and surely do not talk about THE PLAN, unless something has changed.
And the audience already knows something is afoot.

All in all, there is very little that can be done with THE PLAN

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I’m really starting to doubt that any sense can be made out of the rescue… There’s no foundation to any solid plan in the movie and to fix this we would need additional dialog and probably additional footage. I don’t think rearranging scenes would be nearly enough.

JEDIT- Some keep referring to “THE PLAN”, but the problem is that there is no plan.
It’s just a series of scenes where our heroes enter the palace and then are captured. Then, Luke gets his green baseball bat and smacks everybody off the boat while acting like that was his big idea all along. And maybe it was!

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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RogueLeader said:

nhoj3, solid analysis. I’m sure many others have broken down the plan in a similar way. I also came to a similar conclusion when I first started thinking about fanediting ROTJ. After some time I tried to think of a simpler solution that would require less changes, since even this multiple back-up plan theory stills seems overly complicated. But after some time, I think that maybe Luke’s plan was to get to the Sarlacc all along, and to get as much back-up there for the escape as possible.

How does this work? It works under the assumption that Lando has learned the ins-and-outs of Jabba’s palace since he has been undercover. Maybe Lando came to the conclusion that escaping the palace was almost impossible, and Jabba would be unwilling to bargain. Jabba himself is practically untouchable, but one of the few times Jabba leaves his palace with only a fraction of his guards is when he goes to the Pit of Carkoon for executions. So, instead of someone having to escape the heavily fortified palace, Jabba literally takes prisoners out of his fortress and practically hands them a getaway vehicle (the skiffs).

With this in mind, things can start to make more sense. Luke “gifted” the droids to Jabba in order to get them conveniently placed jobs that get them on the inside (maybe Lando sabotaged the previous barge droid and translator). Chewbacca was brought in as extra muscle for the sail barge escape and as a means for Leia to get in. Leia’s mission was to get Han out of the carbonite, but she went in knowing that actual escape was unlikely. I don’t think they planned for Leia to be made into a slave girl, but Leia did make it work in the end. Bottomline, Han had to be let out, otherwise he would be left frozen in the palace while everyone else went to the Sarlacc to be killed.

And if you think about it, Lando could have let Han out himself, but actually getting out of the palace was pretty much impossible, and they needed as much back-up as possible for the sail barge escape, which I think was why Leia and Chewie were brought into it. And with Lando compromised, they wouldn’t have anyone on the inside to make sure that all the pieces were where they needed to be.

Then it comes down to Luke. Luke’s job would be to take out the Rancor, the only other man-eating creature keeping them from the Sarlacc (and their escape). I think Lando obviously would have told Luke about the trap floor, which makes me think falling into the Rancor Pit was intentional. Once that inital means of execution was out of the way, the only thing left to satisfy Jabba’s well-known ego was to kill his enemies with the Sarlacc. Everything points to it; R2, Chewie and Luke seem confident the whole time, R2 is exactly where he needs to be with the lightsaber, and everybody is nodding their heads at each other like this is exactly where they wanted to be. Maybe they just didn’t tell 3PO so they could add an air of authenticity to the situation. They can’t all be cool, calm and collected.

And I think there would only need to be minimal changes to help this plan be clearer.

  • I would rather remove as little footage as possible, but when Luke is in the Rancor Pit, you could cut a shot or two of him desperately trying to get out through the door. If he needs to kill the Rancor, he shouldn’t be trying to escape just yet. So show him running across the pit, cut to the Rancor turning around, then cut back to Luke looking for the gate switch.

  • Another change that could help would be to add/alter a line from Jabba. For example, when Leia and Han get caught by Jabba, he says something before Han starts trying to talk his way out of it (like he always does, EVERY TIME), but there are no subtitles there. Maybe Jabba could say something about how escaping his palace is impossible, or how they never would have gotten past all of his guards, or how no one leaves his palace unless he allows it, etc. There may be a better place to put this kind of line, but a line like this could help foreshadow or hint to the plan.

  • A third, not completely necessary change would be to add more guards throughout his palace.

Personally, I’ve accepted this as their plan and I think the movie already works pretty well as is with that in mind. The main thing that sticks out to me is Luke trying to get out of the Rancor Pit, but one could probably rationalize that somehow. These changes might help make that plan clearer if Adywan or another editor felt the need to clarify the plan.

Sorry for the long post, just thought I would put this idea out there while it was on topic.

TL;DR The Han Rescue Plan was to get to the Sarlacc Pit. It was the easiest way to get everyone out of the palace, away from the majority of Jabba’s guards, and to get a free escape vehicle.

You know what? Thanks for this.

I’ve seen a lot of people trying to bend over backwards, practically demanding that this sequence be re-shot from scratch, but I think that you’re explanation is a great one. Not only do I buy it, but as you stated, it also has the added benefit of preserving the majority of what was originally filmed. The only issue is that the audience shouldn’t have to think this hard for something to make as much sense as you’ve explained it.

Rather than bickering about it, I’d like to see as many people get behind your explanation and put our collective efforts into thinking about what small tweaks could be made to support it.

For example, there’s an additional element in the Rancor scene that I think could be trimmed, which is when Luke chooses to hide under the rock crevice and hit the rancor in the finger. To me, it would be more preplanned if he immediately ran to the antechamber after the Rancor initially drops him.

I also like the idea of adding/changing subtitles to help support your explanation, and not necessarily limited to Jabba. I’d be tempted to go back and see if there’s any opportunity to steal a line or two from Bib Fortuna that could be re-purposed. I still think that a very brief exchange between Threepio and Boushh could help.

And I’m not giving up on the de-Flanderization of C-3PO, but that doesn’t work against your explanation and can be considered independently from this. I would like to see him included in the plan, but if that can’t work well then I wonder if it would be possible to replace his line “Hmm, I wish I had your confidence” with something else, like “What do you mean it’s part of the plan?”. Between Droids, the PT, Clone Wars, video games, and Rebels, surely Anthony Daniels has done enough voice work as Threepio to cobble together a single line that sounds natural.

Any thoughts?

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RogueLeader brings out a really good point about the whole thing. Luke grew up on Tatooine and knew all about Jabba … which in turn probably would have heard about Jabba and his Sarlac executions … The only way out of the palace is that way with everyone. Hmmmm…

So really keeping everything together can work with some tinkering that has been brought out.

I think there is plenty of a data base with Anthony Daniels to dub in an extra 3PO line. I also agree trimming the Rancor scene a bit is good too to make it feel more like “part of the plan.”

Do NOT self-destruct!

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RogueLeader said:
I think that maybe Luke’s plan was to get to the Sarlacc all along, and to get as much back-up there for the escape as possible.

Clearly this is what Lucas tried to sell as plan B. Plan A was to negotiate, and use the mind trick. Surely he didn’t wanna use the same “prison break” twice, so he wanted to do something different, and spectacular.
I was under the impression that this was clear to everyone who criticised the plan. Since this is a bad plan. Logically.
Now I read that some people had no idea about this. Don’t even know what to say.

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I really want Sebastian Shaw to morph into Hayden Christensen - but not the same shot of Christensen that was used for the DVD/Blu-Ray release.

Heck - morph Alec into Ewan…Yoda can stay the same.

I’m gonna be a father! - ETA December 24th 2017

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I would love to see a second death star.

Somebody who likes Star Wars.

My best to worst Star Wars movies: 546739128

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Darth Chronus said:

I really want Sebastian Shaw to morph into Hayden Christensen - but not the same shot of Christensen that was used for the DVD/Blu-Ray release.

Heck - morph Alec into Ewan…Yoda can stay the same.

How about no and instead you morph into a real ROTJ fan.

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LordZerome1080 said:

Darth Chronus said:

I really want Sebastian Shaw to morph into Hayden Christensen - but not the same shot of Christensen that was used for the DVD/Blu-Ray release.

Heck - morph Alec into Ewan…Yoda can stay the same.

How about no and instead you morph into a real ROTJ fan.

How about you learn some manners?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

LordZerome1080 said:

Darth Chronus said:

I really want Sebastian Shaw to morph into Hayden Christensen - but not the same shot of Christensen that was used for the DVD/Blu-Ray release.

Heck - morph Alec into Ewan…Yoda can stay the same.

How about no and instead you morph into a real ROTJ fan.

How about you learn some manners?

Ok