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Inconsistent use of "the force"

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Does anyone think they made the Jedi (particularly ones like Yoda) too powerful, to the point that it makes them look stupid every time they are in a "dangerous" situation?

The same thing has happened in many stories involving overly powerful beings. For example; Superman. If Superman stories were written in such a way that his powers were consistent, and he used them according to common sense, he'd be unstoppable. Kryptonite? He'd never allow himself to get close enough to it for it to be a problem; which wouldn't be difficult for someone who can think/react/move at; near; or beyond light speed (depending on the version of Superman). A single punch from him at such speeds would unleash unimaginable amounts of energy, and if he flew his entire body into a target at such speeds, it would unleash somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.3 quintillion ft. lbs. of energy.

So we have Jedi with telekinetic powers. We know that Yoda can easily lift an X-Wing which has to weigh several tons at least, and even says that size doesn't matter. Well, with a power like that (being able to move any object regardless of size), that = "game over" for anyone who opposes them; or at least, anyone who is not also a "force user".

So there is a "Death Star" ... so what? Yoda could fling it anywhere he wanted to; or better yet, crush it. The only match for Yoda's established "irresistable force" is an "immovable object", and the Death Star was certainly not an immovable object. So your ship is being attacked by another ship? Simply use "the force" to send it hurling into an asteroid; or of course, just crush it. A droid army? Fling them into outerspace; or of course, crush them all onto a large ball of twisted scrap metal.

In Star Wars (1977) there is no evidence of this unlimited telekinetic power that Yoda established in ESB. Jedi could use the force to guide their movements with precision, even without the benefit of eyesight; they could sense disturbances in the force, and could do "Jedi mind tricks" on weak-minded individuals; which is a good example of a smart limitation on a power by Lucas; because in unlimited form, the Jedi mind trick would have been a "game over" power as well.  

What we ended up with were Jedi more powerful than Superman (not even Superman can move any object regardless of its size), but still needing a clone army to fight battle droids, or having dozens of Jedi overwhelmed by battle droids in an arena, etc., which is ridiculous.

The recent TV show "Heroes" suffers from a similar problem. There are characters that can manipulate time and space; a power that also = "game over" by default.

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MaximRecoil said:

Does anyone think they made the Jedi (particularly ones like Yoda) too powerful, to the point that it makes them look stupid every time they are in a "dangerous" situation?

So we have Jedi with telekinetic powers. We know that Yoda can easily lift an X-Wing which has to weigh several tons at least, and even says that size doesn't matter. Well, with a power like that (being able to move any object regardless of size), that = "game over" for anyone who opposes them; or at least, anyone who is not also a "force user".

So there is a "Death Star" ... so what? Yoda could fling it anywhere he wanted to; or better yet, crush it. The only match for Yoda's established "irresistable force" is an "immovable object", and the Death Star was certainly not an immovable object. So your ship is being attacked by another ship? Simply use "the force" to send it hurling into an asteroid; or of course, just crush it. A droid army? Fling them into outerspace; or of course, crush them all onto a large ball of twisted scrap metal.

 

 Well, I think your confusing the philisophical 'size matters not' Yoda says with a quantifiable statement of power. There are clearly limits on what the Force can move (I'm only talking the movies here). Given utter peace and quiet the greatest Jedi master (Yoda) managed to quite slowly pick up a spacefighter.  That's the single most impressive example of the power in either trilogy.

There's no reason to beleive he could 'crush' the Death Star, or for that matter do anything like Mace Windu does in the first Clone Wars cartoon or nameless guy does in the Force Unleashed game. 'Size matters not' is more about understanding the nature of the Force than it is about measurable telekinetic powers.

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Well, I think your confusing the philisophical 'size matters not' Yoda says with a quantifiable statement of power.

What is "philosophical" about it? Yoda's claim that the size doesn't matter was a direct reply to Luke's suggestion that the size of the ship did matter. What if Luke then pointed to an object larger and heavier than the ship and asked him to lift it. Would Yoda have said that he couldn't because it was too big? That would have made him look rather foolish considering what he'd just said about the size not mattering.

There are clearly limits on what the Force can move (I'm only talking the movies here).

According to Yoda there are no limits. Additionally, there are no scenes that I know of where Yoda tries to move something and fails because the object is too big. Where are these "clear limits" established?

Given utter peace and quiet the greatest Jedi master (Yoda) managed to quite slowly pick up a spacefighter.  That's the single most impressive example of the power in either trilogy.

There is nothing which establishes that peace and quiet are prerequisites, and there is nothing to establish that Yoda was moving the ship as fast as he could. There are various reasons that he could have been moving it slowly, e.g., for effect (letting the effect soak into Luke); not wanting to damage the craft; or simply because he wasn't in a hurry.

And that is not necessarily the most impressive display of the power in either trilogy. Dooku broke some structures from the building in AOTC, and I would guess that their load bearing capacity exceeded the weight of an X-Wing fighter.

There's no reason to beleive he could 'crush' the Death Star

He claimed that size doesn't matter in reply to Luke's suggestion that the ship was too big to move. He did not say that size doesn't matter, as long as it is no bigger than an X-Wing fighter.

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This sort of unlimited power turns up in a ridiculous sequence in the original Clone Wars animated series, in which Mace Windu wipes out a droid army single handedly.

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Vaderisnothayden said:

This sort of unlimited power turns up in a ridiculous sequence in the original Clone Wars animated series, in which Mace Windu wipes out a droid army single handedly.

 

It wasn't ridiculous. It was STYLIZED. That's why it's a cartoon and not an actual Star Wars movie. It's the same with the force unleashed game. It's not supposed to be canon, it's just supposed to look cool.

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MaximRecoil said:

Well, I think your confusing the philisophical 'size matters not' Yoda says with a quantifiable statement of power.

What is "philosophical" about it? Yoda's claim that the size doesn't matter was a direct reply to Luke's suggestion that the size of the ship did matter. What if Luke then pointed to an object larger and heavier than the ship and asked him to lift it. Would Yoda have said that he couldn't because it was too big? That would have made him look rather foolish considering what he'd just said about the size not mattering.

There are clearly limits on what the Force can move (I'm only talking the movies here).

According to Yoda there are no limits. Additionally, there are no scenes that I know of where Yoda tries to move something and fails because the object is too big. Where are these "clear limits" established?

Given utter peace and quiet the greatest Jedi master (Yoda) managed to quite slowly pick up a spacefighter.  That's the single most impressive example of the power in either trilogy.

There is nothing which establishes that peace and quiet are prerequisites, and there is nothing to establish that Yoda was moving the ship as fast as he could. There are various reasons that he could have been moving it slowly, e.g., for effect (letting the effect soak into Luke); not wanting to damage the craft; or simply because he wasn't in a hurry.

And that is not necessarily the most impressive display of the power in either trilogy. Dooku broke some structures from the building in AOTC, and I would guess that their load bearing capacity exceeded the weight of an X-Wing fighter.

There's no reason to beleive he could 'crush' the Death Star

He claimed that size doesn't matter in reply to Luke's suggestion that the ship was too big to move. He did not say that size doesn't matter, as long as it is no bigger than an X-Wing fighter.

 

 Let's look at two possible scenarios.

1- Size does indeed not matter in any quantifiable sense to Jedi, and they have nigh unlimited power capable of easily slinging the Death Star around. All through the Star Wars saga Jedi refuse to use these powers because apparently, they are stupid.

OR

2- Yoda's 'size matters not' comment carries with it a grain of truth, but not as a definite measurement of Jedi telekinises, but as some kind of statement about the relationships of things to the Force. Jedi telekinises should not be limited by self-induced weaknesses based on object's sizes, but otherwise does have clear physical limitations at some level, which explains why they do not in fact, hurl Death Stars around and crush planets.

I tend towards #2

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Octorox said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

This sort of unlimited power turns up in a ridiculous sequence in the original Clone Wars animated series, in which Mace Windu wipes out a droid army single handedly.

 

It wasn't ridiculous. It was STYLIZED. That's why it's a cartoon and not an actual Star Wars movie. It's the same with the force unleashed game. It's not supposed to be canon, it's just supposed to look cool.

Style doesn't excuse stuff like that, unless you want to say the style is bloody idiotic. I don't care if it's stylized or a cartoon or non-canon or supposed to look cool, it's still damn ridiculous. And to be honest I'm quite sick of Star Wars things being designed to look cool. Supposed coolness has been shoved on us with a heavy hand since The Phantom Menace. I prefer the days when Star Wars didn't shout "Look, this is cool!" at you all the time. In particular, I'm utterly sick of the supposed coolness of the Jedi. Thank goodness for order 66.

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Let's look at two possible scenarios.

1- Size does indeed not matter in any quantifiable sense to Jedi, and they have nigh unlimited power capable of easily slinging the Death Star around. All through the Star Wars saga Jedi refuse to use these powers because apparently, they are stupid.

How many times have we seen a Jedi drop or otherwise lose his light saber and not instantly retrieve it with telekinesis? That should be an extremely simple task, and indeed it is one that is often seen done, yet there are examples when they either don't do it at all, or wait a long time to do it. For example, when Anakin drops his light saber in AOTC (while he's on top of the flying car), he doesn't pull it back at all; and he was in a situation where he really needed it. He wouldn't have gotten it back if it hadn't have been for Obi-Wan miraculously catching it.

So yes, apparently they are stupid, which is what I was getting at in the first place. That's the problem when a writer makes his character too powerful; it makes them look stupid when they are in dangerous situations and don't use their powers effectively or at all. Since you need dangerous situations for a story of this type, you need to place limitations on their powers in order for the dangerous situations to even seem plausible; i.e., not make the character look like an idiot.

There are plenty of other examples too. Why didn't Obi-Wan use the force to nudge Jango Fett's ship; or at the very least, the missiles that were tracking him; into an asteroid during AOTC? Even if you want to speculate that the series established a limitation on the size of objects that can be moved with the force (which it actually didn't establish at all; quite the opposite in fact), we know that a small fighter craft, and especially, smaller missiles, can be moved by a Jedi.  

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Vaderisnothayden said:
Octorox said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

This sort of unlimited power turns up in a ridiculous sequence in the original Clone Wars animated series, in which Mace Windu wipes out a droid army single handedly.

 

It wasn't ridiculous. It was STYLIZED. That's why it's a cartoon and not an actual Star Wars movie. It's the same with the force unleashed game. It's not supposed to be canon, it's just supposed to look cool.

Style doesn't excuse stuff like that, unless you want to say the style is bloody idiotic. I don't care if it's stylized or a cartoon or non-canon or supposed to look cool, it's still damn ridiculous. And to be honest I'm quite sick of Star Wars things being designed to look cool. Supposed coolness has been shoved on us with a heavy hand since The Phantom Menace. I prefer the days when Star Wars didn't shout "Look, this is cool!" at you all the time. In particular, I'm utterly sick of the supposed coolness of the Jedi. Thank goodness for order 66.

Yes but the series has a very distinct visual flair that is apart from the movies. They have to be looked at as a separate entity, not taken at face value, this is Genndy's interpretation of the Clone Wars and is not necessarily of the same stuff as the movies.

 

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MaximRecoil said:

How many times have we seen a Jedi drop or otherwise lose his light saber and not instantly retrieve it with telekinesis? That should be an extremely simple task, and indeed it is one that is often seen done, yet there are examples when they either don't do it at all, or wait a long time to do it. For example, when Anakin drops his light saber in AOTC (while he's on top of the flying car), he doesn't pull it back at all; and he was in a situation where he really needed it. He wouldn't have gotten it back if it hadn't have been for Obi-Wan miraculously catching it.

So yes, apparently they are stupid, which is what I was getting at in the first place. That's the problem when a writer makes his character too powerful; it makes them look stupid when they are in dangerous situations and don't use their powers effectively or at all. Since you need dangerous situations for a story of this type, you need to place limitations on their powers in order for the dangerous situations to even seem plausible; i.e., not make the character look like an idiot.

There are plenty of other examples too. Why didn't Obi-Wan use the force to nudge Jango Fett's ship; or at the very least, the missiles that were tracking him; into an asteroid during AOTC? Even if you want to speculate that the series established a limitation on the size of objects that can be moved with the force (which it actually didn't establish at all; quite the opposite in fact), we know that a small fighter craft, and especially, smaller missiles, can be moved by a Jedi.  

Do Jedi not use their powers "efficiently," or do we as fans not have a clearly defined explanation on how their powers work and what the use of them requires?

We can think that the Force is an unlimited and effortless superpower despite the fact that at NO POINT IN THE MOVIES does it appear to be this. If it is indeed unlimited and effortless as you suggest, (apparently based entirely on one line), then we have to assume all the Jedi are complete morons. 

This option has the advantage of making us feel both smarter than Lucas ("I wouldn't have written it that badly.") and smarter than Jedi ("I'd use the force better than stupid Yoda.")

Or we can assume these Jedi Masters actually know how to use the Force but that there are some practical limits to the Force, both in quanitifiable means (how heavy an object you can move) and practical means (why not make your lightsaber instantly fly back to you, why not use the force when flying a starfighter), even if the exact and specific limits are unclear.

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Do Jedi not use their powers "efficiently," or do we as fans not have a clearly defined explanation on how their powers work and what the use of them requires?

We have an explanation. It is an energy field created by all living things and so on and so forth (I don't remember the exact quote), which implies a huge amount of energy that "force users" are tapping into, given the number of living things in the Star Wars universe. Additionally, Yoda lifted a space ship and said that the size didn't matter. On top of that, we have plenty of examples of how the force is used, such as the "force push" introduced in the PT, and the light saber retrieval. Both of those things are done routinely with no evidence of physical effort or strain in most cases.

We can think that the Force is an unlimited and effortless superpower despite the fact that at NO POINT IN THE MOVIES does it appear to be this.

Most of the stuff they do with the force appears to be effortless. Yoda tells Luke that it is unlimited, and then proceeds to lift a space ship; and he wasn't exactly grunting and straining while doing so either.

If it is indeed unlimited and effortless as you suggest, (apparently based entirely on one line),

The movie suggests this, through dialog and examples. In fact, for the dialog, it wasn't simply suggested, it was flat-out stated.

then we have to assume all the Jedi are complete morons. 

Yes, and it is the fault of the writer(s) of course.

This option has the advantage of making us feel both smarter than Lucas ("I wouldn't have written it that badly.") and smarter than Jedi ("I'd use the force better than stupid Yoda.")

Say what? Who cares if they are smarter than George Lucas (much less his fictional characters)? He's obviously above average in intelligence, but then, so is half the world's population. He's not exactly Einstein or Archimedes however.

Or we can assume these Jedi Masters actually know how to use the Force but that there are some practical limits to the Force, both in quanitifiable means (how heavy an object you can move) and practical means (why not make your lightsaber instantly fly back to you, why not use the force when flying a starfighter), even if the exact and specific limits are unclear.

So your argument is that the force and the use thereof is essentially random and neither examples of its use/nature nor direct statements regarding its use/nature can be trusted? If that's the case, then that's dodgy writing too.

BTW, the "exact and specific limits" are not unclear; at least not with regard to the size of an object that can be moved with telekinesis. The size doesn't matter, as stated by Yoda in ESB. I know you think Yoda was just making stuff up, but there is no evidence of this. Making a claim along the lines of: "Well if Yoda really meant what he clearly said, then that would mean the Jedi were morons," is not evidence that Yoda didn't mean what he said; it is simply "begging the question" on your part.

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Octorox said:
Vaderisnothayden said:
Octorox said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

This sort of unlimited power turns up in a ridiculous sequence in the original Clone Wars animated series, in which Mace Windu wipes out a droid army single handedly.

 

It wasn't ridiculous. It was STYLIZED. That's why it's a cartoon and not an actual Star Wars movie. It's the same with the force unleashed game. It's not supposed to be canon, it's just supposed to look cool.

Style doesn't excuse stuff like that, unless you want to say the style is bloody idiotic. I don't care if it's stylized or a cartoon or non-canon or supposed to look cool, it's still damn ridiculous. And to be honest I'm quite sick of Star Wars things being designed to look cool. Supposed coolness has been shoved on us with a heavy hand since The Phantom Menace. I prefer the days when Star Wars didn't shout "Look, this is cool!" at you all the time. In particular, I'm utterly sick of the supposed coolness of the Jedi. Thank goodness for order 66.

Yes but the series has a very distinct visual flair that is apart from the movies. They have to be looked at as a separate entity, not taken at face value, this is Genndy's interpretation of the Clone Wars and is not necessarily of the same stuff as the movies.

 

And judged by itself a Jedi wiping out a droid army is still dumb and seriously overdone.

 

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MaximRecoil said:

then we have to assume all the Jedi are complete morons. 

Yes, and it is the fault of the writer(s) of course.

Or we can assume these Jedi Masters actually know how to use the Force but that there are some practical limits to the Force, both in quanitifiable means (how heavy an object you can move) and practical means (why not make your lightsaber instantly fly back to you, why not use the force when flying a starfighter), even if the exact and specific limits are unclear.

BTW, the "exact and specific limits" are not unclear; at least not with regard to the size of an object that can be moved with telekinesis. The size doesn't matter, as stated by Yoda in ESB. I know you think Yoda was just making stuff up, but there is no evidence of this. Making a claim along the lines of: "Well if Yoda really meant what he clearly said, then that would mean the Jedi were morons," is not evidence that Yoda didn't mean what he said; it is simply "begging the question" on your part. 

1-Why doesn't Yoda just crush the entire Droid Army with his mind at Geonosis?

   a) There's some limit to his telekinesis.
   b) He's stupid.

2- How did Anakin drop his lightsaber?

   a) Maybe he was focused on holding on the the spaceship he was outside of.
   b) He's stupid.

3- Why didn't Qui-Gon just singlehandedly stop the invasion fleet of Naboo when he first saw them?

   a) Even as a Jedi master there are limits to what he could hope accomplish even with the Force as his ally.
   b) He's stupid.

4- Since he could knock a couple robots down with a force push, why couldn't Obi-Wan just push the buzzdroids (and all droid fighters) away from him during the space battle above Curoscant?
   a) Perhpas flying a fighter took too much concentration, or it would be too much effort to push all of those different droids.Or they were holding on too tight.
   b) He's stupid.

5- Why doesn't Vader just use the Force to stop the Falcon from escaping Hoth?

   a) He lacked that level of power.
   b) He's stupid.


6- Why didn't Luke just rip the cage door off with his mind,  pick Jaba up telekinetically and hurl him like a slobby bullett against the rancor?

   a) He couldn't
   b) He wouldn't... because he's stupid.

 

Is it easier to answer "B" to all of those questions than it is to think that Yoda's "size matters not" was not a statement of scientific fact that meant "capable of generating infinite numbers of kilowatts the Force is" but might have been a deeper statement regarding an aspect of the nature of an ill-defined pseudo-magical mystical force.

I never implied Yoda didn't mean what he said, it just don't think he meant it as a literal claim of unlimited telekinetic power. Or at the very least, perhaps size does not matter to the Force, but individual Jedi have limits, most apparently far less than Yoda.

I would argue that the films give us very little clear understanding of the nature of the Force. Why does an energy field generated by all living things grant telekinesis? Why is Watto immune to the Jedi mind trick just because he's greedy? Why does doing evil turn your eyes yellow? What is the nature of the 'haunted' cave on Dagobah? How can you move fast enough to block a blaster bolt but get caught with a little rope thing from Boba Fett?

But, if my options are either every Jedi in either trilogy are hopelessly stupid (including Yoda, who made the claim you're hanging this all on) or that the understanding of the Force you propose is somehow incorrect, Occam's razor points me fairly clearly to one of these options.

(ps. I wasn't 'begging a question'. At the very worst I might be accused of suggesting a false delimma.)

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i go by yoda's phiosophy. and one thing you need to think about, you think yoda's so powerful, he's been alive for like 800 years!

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Basically force powers in the oot depended on hereditary characteristics and training.  But the force was infinite in its ability to be tapped into. 

In the prequels we are told the more Midichlorians a  jedi had the more power and potential they have.  Anakin having a higher midi-chlorian count than yoda.

Therefore the stupidity of the prequels turns the originals into Luke and Leia were effective Leaders and fighters for the rebellion because they were passed Anakins midichlorians,lol.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Is it easier to answer "B" to all of those questions than it is to think that Yoda's "size matters not" was not a statement of scientific fact that meant "capable of generating infinite numbers of kilowatts the Force is" but might have been a deeper statement regarding an aspect of the nature of an ill-defined pseudo-magical mystical force.

He was replying to a specific suggestion by Luke that the ship was too big to move. In this case, the specific aspect of the force that allows for telekinesis is not "ill-defined" with respect to the size of the objects that can be moved; because he clearly states that the size of the object does not matter.

I never implied Yoda didn't mean what he said, it just don't think he meant it as a literal claim of unlimited telekinetic power. Or at the very least, perhaps size does not matter to the Force, but individual Jedi have limits, most apparently far less than Yoda.

Obviously individual Jedi have limits, as evidenced by Luke's failure to fully lift the ship. However, Yoda made the claim and then demonstrated the claim; which establishes that size doesn't matter to Yoda's use of the force. There were many opportunities for Yoda to do some heavy, decisive moving in the PT and he didn't bother. Why not send the droid armies flying? Even if he had to do it in X-Wing sized sections of weight, that's likely a few hundred droids at a time.

I would argue that the films give us very little clear understanding of the nature of the Force. Why does an energy field generated by all living things grant telekinesis? Why is Watto immune to the Jedi mind trick just because he's greedy? Why does doing evil turn your eyes yellow? What is the nature of the 'haunted' cave on Dagobah? How can you move fast enough to block a blaster bolt but get caught with a little rope thing from Boba Fett?

That's irrelevant, because the aspects of the force in question here, are the ones that are defined (through dialog and/or example) well enough for this discussion.

But, if my options are either every Jedi in either trilogy are hopelessly stupid (including Yoda, who made the claim you're hanging this all on) or that the understanding of the Force you propose is somehow incorrect, Occam's razor points me fairly clearly to one of these options.

You're missing the point. Yes the examples imply stupidy on the part of the Jedi, and the writing is to blame for it. Write it so the power isn't unlimited, and write scenarios that can realistically pose danger despite the powers-as-defined.

(ps. I wasn't 'begging a question'. At the very worst I might be accused of suggesting a false delimma.)

There was no false dilemma. You were begging the question. You were assuming that the Jedi couldn't have been [written as] morons (which is the question), thus Yoda must not have meant his statement literally. You can't assume (beg) the question in order to establish the conclusion. You need to give actual evidence of your claim that Yoda was not being literal, because without that, it is simply a case of bad writing; and bad writing tends to make characters look like idiots by default.

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TheBoost said:

There's no reason to beleive he could 'crush' the Death Star, or for that matter do anything like Mace Windu does in the first Clone Wars cartoon or nameless guy does in the Force Unleashed game. 'Size matters not' is more about understanding the nature of the Force than it is about measurable telekinetic powers.

If by "nameless guy in the force unleashed" you mean the main character, he actually has a whole first and last name as well as a code name. But yeah, that game takes force powers to a ridiculous point. In one part of the game he crupples up an AT-ST into a ball like a piece of paper. Somebody mentioned that the Force Unleashed was not cannon, just a fun stylized game, but I believe Lucas himself said that the game is canonical, as he had a great deal of creative input into it.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

If by "nameless guy in the force unleashed" you mean the main character, he actually has a whole first and last name as well as a code name. But yeah, that game takes force powers to a ridiculous point. In one part of the game he crupples up an AT-ST into a ball like a piece of paper. Somebody mentioned that the Force Unleashed was not cannon, just a fun stylized game, but I believe Lucas himself said that the game is canonical, as he had a great deal of creative input into it.

 

 That's what I'm talking about. When you write characters so they are overpowered, you dig a hole for yourself. You can either show them being smart, in which case, they can never be in any real danger because they are so powerful, which makes for a dull story. Or, you can put them into dangerous situations, but then it just makes them look dumb by not using their powers to easily overcome the danger. Good writing strikes a balance across the board, between power levels and situations that the characters may encounter.

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C3PX said:
TheBoost said:

There's no reason to beleive he could 'crush' the Death Star, or for that matter do anything like Mace Windu does in the first Clone Wars cartoon or nameless guy does in the Force Unleashed game. 'Size matters not' is more about understanding the nature of the Force than it is about measurable telekinetic powers.

If by "nameless guy in the force unleashed" you mean the main character, he actually has a whole first and last name as well as a code name. But yeah, that game takes force powers to a ridiculous point. In one part of the game he crupples up an AT-ST into a ball like a piece of paper. Somebody mentioned that the Force Unleashed was not cannon, just a fun stylized game, but I believe Lucas himself said that the game is canonical, as he had a great deal of creative input into it.

If somebody could find a specific reference/article whatever showing Lucas saying it's canon I'd be very interested. Or even just specific details on him saying it's canon.

With Star Wars, Lucasfilm recognizes different levels of canon and an expanded universe thing like Force Unleashed would usually be in C canon, which is below the films/novelizations/radio dramas/screenplays and the new tv series stuff. Lucas seems to have his own views on canon. As of 2001 he seemed to include only the movies. As of May 2008 he seemed to be including recent tv projects too. So I don't know where he'd be fitting Force Unleashed. But if they're crumpling ATSTs it sounds more like Farce Unleashed.

 Also, I'd be interested to hear of any other weird of far out things in Force Unleashed.

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MaximRecoil said:

 You need to give actual evidence of your claim that Yoda was not being literal

Well, their whole conversation was about Luke's mindset, and Yoda trying to make him see things in a different way.
Clearly it is not power that Luke lacks, but the belief that it is possible.
Yoda was trying to get him to understand the nature of the force, which obviously conflicted with everything he already knew.

So how is it not a philosophical discussion? The Jedi are all about philosophy.

Yoda wasn't teaching him some specific Jedi-lifting trick, like “...moving stones around is one thing but this is totally different!”, “No, no different!, just remember to bend your knees and lift with you legs.” ;)

Yoda never implies that he is the perfect Jedi or force-user ("Strong am I with the Force… but not that strong").
So you could take it that Yoda is not all-powerful but he is wise enough to know that it is his own lack of faith in the force that prevents him from being that.

 

The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project

Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations

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MaximRecoil said:

 

 

 

Obviously individual Jedi have limits, as evidenced by Luke's failure to fully lift the ship. However, Yoda made the claim and then demonstrated the claim; which establishes that size doesn't matter to Yoda's use of the force. There were many opportunities for Yoda to do some heavy, decisive moving in the PT and he didn't bother. Why not send the droid armies flying? Even if he had to do it in X-Wing sized sections of weight, that's likely a few hundred droids at a time.

 

But, if my options are either every Jedi in either trilogy are hopelessly stupid (including Yoda, who made the claim you're hanging this all on) or that the understanding of the Force you propose is somehow incorrect, Occam's razor points me fairly clearly to one of these options.

 

You're missing the point. Yes the examples imply stupidy on the part of the Jedi, and the writing is to blame for it. Write it so the power isn't unlimited, and write scenarios that can realistically pose danger despite the powers-as-defined.

 

(ps. I wasn't 'begging a question'. At the very worst I might be accused of suggesting a false delimma.)

 

There was no false dilemma. You were begging the question. You were assuming that the Jedi couldn't have been [written as] morons (which is the question), thus Yoda must not have meant his statement literally. You can't assume (beg) the question in order to establish the conclusion. You need to give actual evidence of your claim that Yoda was not being literal, because without that, it is simply a case of bad writing; and bad writing tends to make characters look like idiots by default.

 

You state yourself obviously individual Jedi have limits. Because they have these limits, there is no reason to assume they are stupid. Given the difference between what you claim the Force should be able to do and what they actually do with it, it makes much more sense to chalk that difference up to their individual power limits than it does to their stupidity. Since it is obvious from the films that Jedi have limits, the writing did not imply the Jedi had unlimited power.

Even if we assume the Force is a source for unlimited telekinetic power, knowing that Jedi have a limited ability to access this answers the questions about why they don't do certain thing much easier than assuming they're all dumb. I know my toaster is attached to a power grid that powers most of the San Juoaquin Valley, and yet I don't think my toaster is stupid because it doesn't heat my entire house. I understand it's obvious limits.

Yoda made a claim and then lifted a ship. He did not demonstrate the ability to use unlimited telekinetic power. At no point did he back up the claim "Size matters not" with quantifiable evidence of unlimited power. That he had unlimited telekinesis is an extraordinary claim, and I don't see any extraordinary proof in the films.

Let us assume, given the single most impressive feat of telekinisis evident in the films- Yoda stopping the metal thing Dooku dropped on Obi and Anakin. That effort made it impossible for Yoda to stop a fleeing Dooku, and apparently took a great deal of concentration and perhaps some physical strain judging from his expression. Is that the upper limit of the most powerful Jedi in the films? It's possible. He certainly never does anything like crush the Death Star. Non-existence of evidence is not evidence of non-existence, but given Yoda's character, goals, and apparent wisdom, him not using this power if he had it seems unlikely.

As to why Yoda didn't throw whole droid armies around, perhaps theres a fundamental difference between lifting something with the Force and Force pushing things in combat. I don't know, I'm not a Jedi.

And that's still not begging the question. I never assumed the Jedi can't be morons, just that given a choice between all Jedi being morons, or beleiveing that the way you describe a Jedi's power being inaccurate, it seems more likely that your claim that Jedi should demonstrate unlimited telekinetic power is innacurate.

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Vaderisnothayden said:

If somebody could find a specific reference/article whatever showing Lucas saying it's canon I'd be very interested. Or even just specific details on him saying it's canon.

With Star Wars, Lucasfilm recognizes different levels of canon and an expanded universe thing like Force Unleashed would usually be in C canon, which is below the films/novelizations/radio dramas/screenplays and the new tv series stuff. Lucas seems to have his own views on canon. As of 2001 he seemed to include only the movies. As of May 2008 he seemed to be including recent tv projects too. So I don't know where he'd be fitting Force Unleashed. But if they're crumpling ATSTs it sounds more like Farce Unleashed.

 Also, I'd be interested to hear of any other weird of far out things in Force Unleashed.

For more weird things in the Force Unleashed, I'd simply recommend searching it on youtube. You'll be able to find all the cut scenes there, they'll be labeled something like 01, 02, 03, etc. It is an interesting watch, far more entertaining to me than the new TV show. Watching those cutscene will pretty much give you the whole story in movie format, without the need for any hard work like reading or playing the game. To be honest, I actually found it more entertaining than the last two prequels, better acted too. Just some of those exaggerated things that hurt it, but in the end, it was a video game and its main appeal (as seen in its name) was the ability to use exaggerated force powers.

As far as an exact quote from Lucas, I am not sure if anything like that exists, but it is well known that he was very involved in the story process, something he has not done on any of the games before now. Just about ever article talking about the game up until its release mentioned that it was intended to be canonical.

Here is an example of such an article, http://www.wired.com/entertainment/hollywood/multimedia/2008/08/ff_starwarscanon_gallery?slide=2&slideView=2 notice at the very end it mentions how much effort they went through to ensure it fit with continuity, and that Lucas himself was involved. There are more detailed articles about this out there, but this one was nice and short, being only a couple of paragraphs.

Hayden Blackman, the main writer of the story said, "All these characters are going into the continuity, they'll all be canon, and they're all part of the Star Wars galaxy."

Lucas seemed to intend this to be canon. Now, knowing him, I would not be in the least surprised if later he says it is not canon. But in the end who cares? To me, none of this is canon. I refuse to accept the whiny character portrayed in AOTC and ROTS is the man who became Darth Vader, I can come up with much more convincing backstories for him in my head than what was put to film. Books like SOTE and the thrawn trilogy I have enjoyed enough that I like to consider them as something that really happened in the SW galaxy I like to enjoy. Also in my own personal Star Wars canon, Han fired first, and he never had a redundant talk with Jabba.

 

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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You state yourself obviously individual Jedi have limits. Because they have these limits, there is no reason to assume they are stupid. Given the difference between what you claim the Force should be able to do and what they actually do with it, it makes much more sense to chalk that difference up to their individual power limits than it does to their stupidity. Since it is obvious from the films that Jedi have limits, the writing did not imply the Jedi had unlimited power.

You keep going off track. I never claimed that the writing implied that the Jedi had unlimited power. The writing specifically claimed that Yoda could move any object, regardless of size, with telekinesis. That's not even remotely the same as saying that the Jedi in general had unlimited power in general, because Yoda does not = Jedi in general, and the ability to move any object, regardless of size, with telekinesis does not = unlimited power in general.

Even if we assume the Force is a source for unlimited telekinetic power, knowing that Jedi have a limited ability to access this answers the questions about why they don't do certain thing much easier than assuming they're all dumb. I know my toaster is attached to a power grid that powers most of the San Juoaquin Valley, and yet I don't think my toaster is stupid because it doesn't heat my entire house. I understand it's obvious limits.

See above. We're talking about Yoda here with regard to the ability to move any object, regardless of size, with telekinesis. When I have discussed other Jedi, it has been with regard to their inconsistencies in other areas.

Yoda made a claim and then lifted a ship. He did not demonstrate the ability to use unlimited telekinetic power. At no point did he back up the claim "Size matters not" with quantifiable evidence of unlimited power. That he had unlimited telekinesis is an extraordinary claim, and I don't see any extraordinary proof in the films.

Extraordinary claim relative to what? This is a fictional universe defined by the writer. The idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, applies to the real world, not to fictional worlds. A writer can make any claim he wants to; as he is the creator of that fictional universe. However, when there are inconsistencies, you may end up with plot holes, or at the least, characters which come across as stupid.

And in the context of the scene, his lifting of the ship was evidence of Yoda's claim, since lifting the ship was the task at hand, the task which Luke suggested was too difficult because of the size of the ship. He could have said something more vague to Luke, like, "You underestimate the power of the force," but he didn't. He made a very specific claim, i.e., "Size matters not." Words mean things.

Let us assume, given the single most impressive feat of telekinisis evident in the films- Yoda stopping the metal thing Dooku dropped on Obi and Anakin. That effort made it impossible for Yoda to stop a fleeing Dooku, and apparently took a great deal of concentration and perhaps some physical strain judging from his expression. Is that the upper limit of the most powerful Jedi in the films? It's possible. He certainly never does anything like crush the Death Star. Non-existence of evidence is not evidence of non-existence, but given Yoda's character, goals, and apparent wisdom, him not using this power if he had it seems unlikely.

The problem here is you are trying to rationalize everything, which means you've discounted the possibility of something far more simple to explain inconsistencies; i.e., bad writing.

Also, in this scene, Yoda wasn't simply dealing with the weight of the metal thing, but he had to counteract Dooku's use of the force (that stuff didn't break/fall due to natural causes). The same thing applies in ROTS when the emperor was throwing those senate seats (or whatever they were) at him.

As to why Yoda didn't throw whole droid armies around, perhaps theres a fundamental difference between lifting something with the Force and Force pushing things in combat. I don't know, I'm not a Jedi.

Or, a more obvious explanation is that the character was written with too much power which makes it next to impossible to invent dangerous situations which he could not easily overcome by using that power.

And that's still not begging the question. I never assumed the Jedi can't be morons, just that given a choice between all Jedi being morons, or beleiveing that the way you describe a Jedi's power being inaccurate, it seems more likely that your claim that Jedi should demonstrate unlimited telekinetic power is innacurate.

You're discounting the possibility of bad writing; i.e., you're assuming that the writing is fine (and that is the question); and using that assumption as your basis for trying to rationalize the inconsistencies; hence, you are begging the question.

This could have been fixed with some writing changes. For example, don't have Yoda claim that size doesn't matter if the writer actually intends for size to matter. Don't keep using the whole "dropping the light saber" thing as a plot device when it is already established that even rookie Jedi can will the things back into their hands at a moment's notice; etc. When you are writing super powered characters you need to give them certain limitations and be very creative with the dangerous situations that you construct for them. Otherwise, you end up with characters that look stupid.

This is just a point of discussion for me. I love the movies (the OOT in particular) regardless of their flaws.

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C3PX said:

Lucas seemed to intend this to be canon. Now, knowing him, I would not be in the least surprised if later he says it is not canon. But in the end who cares? To me, none of this is canon. I refuse to accept the whiny character portrayed in AOTC and ROTS is the man who became Darth Vader, I can come up with much more convincing backstories for him in my head than what was put to film. Books like SOTE and the thrawn trilogy I have enjoyed enough that I like to consider them as something that really happened in the SW galaxy I like to enjoy. Also in my own personal Star Wars canon, Han fired first, and he never had a redundant talk with Jabba.

 

Not just in your personal Star Wars canon, in the real canon too. The core of the idea of canon is what's the real thing, and in Star Wars the real thing is Han shooting first and Star Wars as a film that doesn't have a stupid cgi Jabba scene in it. That's the real canon. Just because Lucas says something is canon doesn't mean it is, not if it's not the real thing.

And you're right that AOTC and ROTS's Anakin can't be Vader. No way does that insubstantial personality fit with the Vader we're shown in the OT or the Anakin we meet in the end of the OOT. So quite simply that AOTC and ROTS Anakin can't be canon. Because the core of SW canon is the OOT, the real thing, and Hayden's Anakin is totally inconsistent with that. So Hayden's Anakin isn't canon. And since AOTC and ROTS revolve around Hayden's Anakin then their canonicity is totally shot too. 

Video games built for a supposed canon that includes ROTS and AOTC aren't canon either.

I think the Star Wars franchise lost the ability to create new canon when Lucas massively violated the canon with the SE in 1997.

Thanks for the info on Farce Unleashed.

 

 

 

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When the term "canon" is used in context of a work of fiction, it typically means any work related to the original and created by or accepted by the original creator as an authentic part of the over all story of the fictional universe he created. All this crap about a-canon b-canon c-canon is BS used to legitimize the fact that ol' boy George wants to pull in more dough by accepting royalties from the selling of liscened SW novels, but also doesn't want to be confined by rules or events related to those novels. Which is fine, but why not disregard them as canon altogether, instead of this "different levels of canon" stuff. Canon is suppose to be what is offically accepted, it either is or is not.

That said, when we talk about real canon, it is what Lucas and official sources make it out to be. Sure, I mentioned my personal canon, but that is just a fancy way of saying the works I wish to accept as having happened in my own personal experience of the franchise. When we start changing the meanings of words, such as "canon" to mean what is most plausable or what makes the most sense, or what was set out first, we muddle the meaning to the point where it is no longer a useful word.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape