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Implied starting date of the Empire from OT dialogue — Page 2

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 (Edited)

About Obi-wan's age, I found this dialogue useful:

                                     VADER
                         A tremor in the Force. The last time
                         I felt it was in the presence of my
                         old master.

                                     TARKIN
                         Surely he must be dead by now.

                                     VADER
                         Don't underestimate the power of the
                         Force.

Tarkin seems to imply that Obi-wan may be very old, so much that he may've died of old age, yet he survived with the power of the Force. Could he be more than 70 years old? That would make sense: Yoda was able to live for more than 800 years in the same way.

Vader, on the other hand, seems he's not considered "old" by Tarkin, thus it's possible he's still in his 40s-60s in Star Wars.

If that's the case, Anakin's could've actually been the last Jedi generation, explaining why few people know about the Jedi in the OT.

Finally, if the Jedi disappeared with the rise of the Empire, it would make sense it started no more than around 50 years before Star Wars.

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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John Doom said:

About that "felt familiar", my guess is that Luke had a vision of Dagobah (like later with Cloud City), but he doesn't remember it anymore as usually happens with dreams. 

 That's all I've ever thought it was.  Start spending too much time trying to assign deep meaning to anything from Lucas and you end up realizing he was a weak writer and story teller. His quality work is when he's collaborated with people who are talented: Marcia, Kurtz, Spielberg, Kasdan, Ford, etc.

He wrote, filmed, and released the "no, there is another" scene without giving any thought to where it would go or who 'the other' actually was.  As has been proven in countless interviews with people who worked closely with him, Lucas doesn't think much beyond the moment or the surface.  Fix it on the fly later (poorly).

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You believe what you want to believe.

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I think the suggested retcon for Tarkin's comment is that he surely would have been killed by then. Not defending it, just stating it.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Anchorhead said:

He [Lucas] wrote, filmed, and released the "no, there is another" scene without giving any thought to where it would go or who 'the other' actually was.

 Actually, Kershner shot it. And (I think) Kasdan wrote it and (I'm certain) had the idea that Luke would go off on his own to find this "Other" at the end of Jedi. Good stuff.
It's Lucas's heavy hand in ROTJ that began to show that Star Wars is better when he's less involved.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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In fact, Kasdan actually wrote Yoda's line as "We must search for another." Lucas changed it to "No, there is another."

Not only because of the whole incipient lost-sister plotline, but also because GL felt that, given Luke's status as the hero, the audience otherwise probably wouldn't think Luke was really in danger during the climactic duel.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ray_afraid said:

Anchorhead said:

He [Lucas] wrote, filmed, and released the "no, there is another" scene without giving any thought to where it would go or who 'the other' actually was.

 Actually, Kershner shot it. And (I think) Kasdan wrote it and (I'm certain) had the idea that Luke would go off on his own to find this "Other" at the end of Jedi. Good stuff.
It's Lucas's heavy hand in ROTJ that began to show that Star Wars is better when he's less involved.

Though it's unlikely in a parallel universe we would've actually had Luke search for "another" while still saving Han, "completing" the training and facing Vader :D

ATMachine said:

In fact, Kasdan actually wrote Yoda's line as "We must search for another." Lucas changed it to "No, there is another."

Not only because of the whole incipient lost-sister plotline, but also because GL felt that, given Luke's status as the hero, the audience otherwise probably wouldn't think Luke was really in danger during the climactic duel.

I thought I remembered that was Kershner's concern, but I'm probably wrong.

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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Wasn't the "other" supposed to be a plot point from the fourth film, which was then rolled into ROTJ (with the decision to make the other be Leia) as a way to wrap everything up in just three movies?

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I stand corrected if it wasn't Lucas who boned up that major plot point.  From what I've read through the years, I was under the impressionthat Lucas micromanaged both sequels, as well as all EU.

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ray_afraid said:


Lucas stayed out of production on Empire for the most part, 

 Nope not at all.

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Baronlando said:

ray_afraid said:


Lucas stayed out of production on Empire for the most part, 

 Nope not at all.

Case in point: "I am your father."

If Plagueis shows up in the ST, not only will I refuse to watch the movies, but I won't so much as watch the trailers, either. - DuracellEnergizer

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Baronlando said:

ray_afraid said:


Lucas stayed out of production on Empire for the most part, 

 Nope not at all.

 Well, more so than on the other films. He's even says so in the Empire of Dreams doc.
I guess "stayed out of production" was a bad choice of words. I know he was heavily involved. But he did give others more freedom than on the following films.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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 (Edited)

John Doom said:

About Obi-wan's age, I found this dialogue useful:

                                     VADER
                         A tremor in the Force. The last time
                         I felt it was in the presence of my
                         old master.

                                     TARKIN
                         Surely he must be dead by now.

                                     VADER
                         Don't underestimate the power of the
                         Force.

Tarkin seems to imply that Obi-wan may be very old, so much that he may've died of old age, yet he survived with the power of the Force. Could he be more than 70 years old? That would make sense: Yoda was able to live for more than 800 years in the same way.

Vader, on the other hand, seems he's not considered "old" by Tarkin, thus it's possible he's still in his 40s-60s in Star Wars.

If that's the case, Anakin's could've actually been the last Jedi generation, explaining why few people know about the Jedi in the OT.

Finally, if the Jedi disappeared with the rise of the Empire, it would make sense it started no more than around 50 years before Star Wars.

 The shooting script for ANH specifies that Obi-Wan is at least 70 years old. I believe this remained the general school of thought until the prequels came along and mucked about with the original timeline.

(Said script also specifies that Luke is 20 and Leia is 16 -- meaning they're definitely not twins.)

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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 (Edited)

Indeed, according to TSHOSW, Obi-wan was originally to be about 30 years old in TPM, making him in his 70s in SW. It seems Qui-gon's addition is the mother of all retcons, after all :\

JEDIT: Nope! According to the "Timeline of galactic history", the OT is set 32 years after TPM, making Obi-wan about 60 years old in SW.

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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Obi-Wan is 25 in the TPM shooting script, though you're right about him having originally been 30 or so (back when he was the star of the movie and "Quigon Jinn" only showed up in the third act).

So "officially" Obi-Wan is only 57 when ANH begins. Kind of understandable given Ewan McGregor's relatively youthful appearance, but it doesn't quite gel with the timeframe of the OOT.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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 (Edited)

After a lot of research, I think this may be a possible OT timeline (well, at least it shouldn't contradict the original scripts).

Still needs some work, though :\

====SOURCES
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Empire-Strikes-Back.html
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Return-of-the-Jedi.html
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/793052/#TopicPost793052
http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2015/10/swnn-interview-james-kahn-author-of-return-of-the-jedi-novelization.html


====TIMELINE
-25,000
    The Old Republic, the first galaxy-wide government is formed;
    Jedi Knights appear;
    period of galactic peace and expansion begins.
        AGTTSWU (A Guide to the Star Wars Universe)
-896
    Yoda is born.
        "When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not."
        AGTTSWU
-200
    Chewbacca is born on Kashyyyk.
        AGTTSWU
-112
    C-3PO is built in a Cybot Galactica plant on the planet Affa.
        George Lucas
>-60?
    Obi-wan is born.
        "Surely he must be dead by now" (Tarkin considers him very old)
        60 BSW4: Obi-Wan Kenobi is born. (AGTTSWU)
    Obi-wan becomes Yoda's apprentice
        "[...]Yoda,  the Jedi Master who instructed me."
-55
    Anakin is born.
        AGTTSWU
-48
    Mon Mothma is born on Chandrila.
        AGTTSWU
-?
    Obi-wan serves Organa in the Clone Wars
        "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars."
        AGTTSWU
-37?
    Anakin becomes a pilot.
        "He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy"
    Anakin becomes Obi-wan's apprentice.
        "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot.
        But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him."
        "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi."
    Anakin and Obi-wan fight in the Clone Wars.
        "You fought in the Clone Wars?"
        "Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."
-35
    The Clone Wars end.
        AGTTSWU
-?
    Anakin leaves his training
        "When I left you, I was but the learner"
    Anakin faces Palpatine, but is defeated.
        "If you end your training now, if you choose
        the quick and easy path, as Vader did,
        you will  become an agent of evil."
        "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor,
        or suffer your father's fate, you will."
    Anakin is turned to the Dark Side.
        "You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force.
        [...] the good man who was your father was destroyed."
    Anakin becomes a royal under the name of Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith.
        "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader."
-?
    Vader faces Obi-wan. The duel leaves him dying falling into a lava pit, but he menages to survive.
        George Lucas
        ROTJ's novelization
-?
    Last days of the Republic and the opening moments of the Empire
        AGTTSWU
    Vader hunts down the remaining Jedi.
        "Darth Vader [...] helped the Empire hunt down and destroy
        the Jedi Knights. [...] Now the Jedi are all but extinct."
    Obi-wan assumes a new identity, Ben Kenobi.
        "I haven't gone by the name Obi-Wan since oh, before you were born."
-18
    Luke and Leia are born.
        "Luke Skywalker, a farm boy with heroic aspirations
        who looks much younger than his eighteen years."
        AGTTSWU
    Their birth is kept secret.
        "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden
        from your father when you were born."
    Luke is rised by his uncle.
    Leia is initially rised by her mother, before her death.
        "Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"
        "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."
    Leia is adopted by the Organas
        "That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."
-0
    "Star Wars"


====TODO
The Clone Wars begin
Palpatine is elected Chancellor

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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Regarding Luke and Leia; Their ages and proof they were never meant to be related.

From the shooting script for Star Wars:

EXT. TATOOINE - DESERT WASTELAND - DAY

               A death-white wasteland stretches from horizon to horizon.
               The tremendous heat of two huge twin suns settle on a lone
               figure, Luke Skywalker, a farm boy with heroic aspirations
               who looks much younger than his eighteen years.

----------------------


  INT. REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER

               Threepio stands in a hallway, somewhat bewildered. Artoo is
               nowhere in sight. The pitiful screams of the doomed Rebel
               soldiers can be heard in the distance.

                                     THREEPIO
                         Artoo! Artoo-Detoo, where are you?

               A familiar clanking sound attacks Threepio's attention and
               he spots little Artoo at the end of the hallway in a smoke-
               filled alcove. A beautiful young girl (about sixteen years
               old) stands in front of Artoo. Surreal and out of place,
               dreamlike and half hidden in the smoke, she finishes adjusting
               something on Artoo's computer face, then watches as the little
               robot joins his companion.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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 (Edited)

Anchorhead said:

Regarding Luke and Leia; Their ages and proof they were never meant to be related.

From the shooting script for Star Wars:

EXT. TATOOINE - DESERT WASTELAND - DAY

               A death-white wasteland stretches from horizon to horizon.
               The tremendous heat of two huge twin suns settle on a lone
               figure, Luke Skywalker, a farm boy with heroic aspirations
               who looks much younger than his eighteen years.

----------------------


  INT. REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER

               Threepio stands in a hallway, somewhat bewildered. Artoo is
               nowhere in sight. The pitiful screams of the doomed Rebel
               soldiers can be heard in the distance.

                                     THREEPIO
                         Artoo! Artoo-Detoo, where are you?

               A familiar clanking sound attacks Threepio's attention and
               he spots little Artoo at the end of the hallway in a smoke-
               filled alcove. A beautiful young girl (about sixteen years
               old) stands in front of Artoo. Surreal and out of place,
               dreamlike and half hidden in the smoke, she finishes adjusting
               something on Artoo's computer face, then watches as the little
               robot joins his companion.

 Yeah, as I said, originally Luke and Leia definitely were not twins.

The question of them not being related, however, may be another story entirely...

...have you ever seen Der Ring des Nibelungen?

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

 Yeah, as I said, originally Luke and Leia definitely were not twins.

The question of them not being related, however, may be another story entirely...

...have you ever seen Der Ring des Nibelungen?

I figured someone might show their ass over the way I worded my post. 

In answer to your query; With my wife having worked at Houston Grand Opera for a number of years, yes, I've seen the Ring Cycle.  Doesn't apply here. 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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...You do remember the bit in Die Walküre where Siegmund and Sieglinde are actually half-siblings (and thus were born at different times), right?

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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 (Edited)

John Doom said:

After a lot of research, I think this may be a possible OT timeline (well, at least it shouldn't contradict the original scripts).

Still needs some work, though :\

====SOURCES
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Empire-Strikes-Back.html
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Return-of-the-Jedi.html


====TIMELINE
-900
    Yoda is born.
        "When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not."
-80
    Obi-wan is born.
        "Surely he must be dead by now"
        "Don't underestimate the power of the Force."
    Obi-wan becomes Yoda's apprentice
        "[...]Yoda,  the Jedi Master who instructed me."
-60
    Anakin is born
        ?
-?
    The Clone Wars begin
        ?
    Palpatine is elected Chancellor in his 50s (Chancellors' average age at their first mandate)
        ?
    War brings to a centralization of power in the hands of Palpatine. "Dark Times".
        ?
    The Jedi take part in the war.
        "You fought in the Clone Wars?"
        "Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."
-40
    Anakin becomes a pilot.
        "He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy"
-?
    Obi-wan serves Oragana in the war
        "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars."
    Obi-wan meets Anakin and is amazed how strongly the Force is with him.
        "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot.
        But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him."
    Yoda cannot train Anakin ("too old"?)
    Anakin becomes Obi-wan's apprentice.
        "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi."
    Anakin and Obi-wan fight in the Clone Wars.
        "You fought in the Clone Wars?"
        "Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."
-?
    The Clone Wars are over
        ?
    Palpatine refuses to give up his powers and charges the jedi of treachery.
        ?
    Anakin leaves his training to face Palpatine (a plot?), but is defeated.
        "When I left you, I was but the learner"
        "If you end your training now, if you choose
        the quick and easy path, as Vader did,
        you will  become an agent of evil."
        "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor,
        or suffer your father's fate, you will."
    Anakin is turned to the Dark Side (how? brain-wash? lust for power?, convenience?)
        "You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force.
        [...] the good man who was your father was destroyed."
    Anakin becomes a royal under the name of Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith.
        "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader."
-50
    The Republic becomes the Empire.
        "[...] in the Old Republic. Before the dark times,
        before the Empire."
    The Jedi Order is disbanded by the Emperor
        "the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice
        in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire."
    The Jedi are persecuted
        ?
    Obi-wan flees in "exile" and assumes a new identity.
        "I haven't gone by the name Obi-Wan since oh, before you were born."
-20
    Luke and Leia are born. Their birth is kept secret.
        "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden
        from your father when you were born."
    Luke is rised by his uncle.
    Leia is initially rised by her mother, before her death.
        "Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"
        "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."
    Leia is adopted by the Oraganas
        "That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."
-0
    "Star Wars"

 

This is a really neat and concise outline. I have a question about it: Did Anakin go evil, spend decades as Darth Vader, and then conceive two children with "Mrs. Vader"? That's interesting. Most interpretations of the prequel timeline that I've read about have Mrs. Skywalker discover her pregnancy while Anakin is still a good guy and a loyal Jedi. Your interpretation shakes that up a bit! It puts a very different image in my mind of who the mother was if she knew she carried the children of the Dark Lord of the Sith.

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-50
    The Republic becomes the Empire.
        "[...] in the Old Republic. Before the dark times,
        before the Empire."

This is a non sequitur

Nothing Ben says necessarily means that HE was personally present for the birth of the Empire, or personally remembers it.  He is just discussing a World That Was, that he may only have heard about from his trainer, as one of the dwindling followers of the Force.  He could have been trained in the Jedi arts by a rogue Jedi long after the Jedi Knights had been ousted as official guardians. 

It could have been generations of secretive, hermit-style heretical Jedi, who were always fighting on the side of the various oppositions to the Empire.  Plus Ben could have been 120, and could have trained Anakin when he was already 60.

    The Jedi Order is disbanded by the Emperor
        "the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice
        in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire."
    The Jedi are persecuted
        ?
    Obi-wan flees in "exile" and assumes a new identity.
        "I haven't gone by the name Obi-Wan since oh, before you were born."

Again, you're unconsciously subscribing to PT plot-points that were not necessarily part of the SW backstory.  The Jedi Order could have been deposed generations earlier--they were no longer "guardians" of the established political order, but were instead outcasts and rogues, fighting on the side of Good.  The whole Clone Wars business could very well have been (and I actually think WAS) entirely a post-Imperial course of events.

Yes Ben fought with Leia's father, and then had to go into exile at some point afterward, but that doesn't mean it all happened in one big, pat, tidy singularity as the PT would have it.

Remember, SW was supposed to be a sprawling, sweeping world of Mystery & Magic, with ancient histories and dark secrets.  Only later did Georgie-poo decide to boil it all down to one narrow, obsessively focused domino chain.