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"If you leave now, help them you could..."

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So I was just watching Empire Strikes Back, and I suddenly realized one monumental plot flub:

Luke sees a vision of Leia and Han being tortured and decides he has to go to Lando's mining colony. Yoda tries to stop him by saying "If you go now, help them you could, but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."

Ummm... HOW, exactly, little green dude? Considering that all they have "fought and suffered" to do for the last hour or so was stay the heck out of Vader's grasp! It's not like Luke's arrival single-handedly led to the downfall of the rebellion or anything. In fact, Luke going to Cloud City seemed to not have any major benefit or detriment at all outside of Luke losing his hand (maybe they "fought and suffered" to make a cybernetic hand only to feel devestated when they had to give it to Luke?)

So really, what's with Yoda's warning?
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Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
So really, what's with Yoda's warning?
Do you honestly not understand the plot?
Some were not blessed with brains.
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make Lucas lose a lot of his money
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Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
So really, what's with Yoda's warning?
Do you honestly not understand the plot?


The plot? Yes.
Every subtle little naunce in the dialogue? No.
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I think by "all for which they have fought and suffered" he is referring to all the freedom-fighting activities of the Rebellion in general.

Maybe Yoda thinks, because Luke is not ready, that Vader will succeed in turning him to the dark side. With two dark jedis (or "siths", I suppose), including one with knowledge of the locations of the Rebels, the Rebellion would certainly be doomed. But then what of his "help them you could" comment? Maybe engaging Vader would be enough to allow his friends to escape (due to diverting his attentions), but in the big picture all would be lost. A stretch? No doubt about it.

Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
It's not like Luke's arrival single-handedly led to the downfall of the rebellion or anything.

Perhaps Yoda underestimated Luke's "readiness", and therefore it wasn't such a bad thing for him to go to Bespin.

I always found it strange that when Luke left Dagobah, Yoda was insistent that he wasn't ready to face Vader. But he does so anyway. Fast forward to ROTJ. Luke goes back to complete his training, and Yoda says only one thing remains. He must confront Vader. Huh? Luke's probably thinking, Isn't that exactly what I did? And you told me I wasn't ready?
Of course, we can surmise that Luke continued training on his own during the period between ESB and ROTJ, but I always thought the final requirement was funny. I read Shadows of the Empire a long time ago, so I don't recall if this addresses any of his further training.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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Originally posted by: auximenies
I read Shadows of the Empire a long time ago, so I don't recall if this addresses any of his further training.


I'm only familiar with Shadows through the N64 game, but IIRC yes, it does account for Luke's training.

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I take this to mean that with the training that Luke was given, he could possibly help his friends ("you could"). Yoda thinks that he won't, hence the "destroy" part ("you would"). Yoda thinks Luke is reckless, and "now matters are worse". But, since he could not foresee the exact outcome of events, he left in that possibility that Luke could help. And I guess he didn't realize the third possibility that actually happened, not helping but not joining Vader either... well perhaps he did, in a way: "mind what you have learned, save you it can".

Edit: Guess I need to watch the movie a few more times.. losing my grip on the exact dialogue
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Remember, as well, that Yoda knows that Vader is Luke's father and Luke doesn't and he is, perhaps, concerned that Vader will tell Luke and Luke won't be able to handle it.

In ROTJ he expands:

Yoda: "Your father he is. Told you, did he?"

Luke: "Yes."

Yoda: "Unexpected this is. And unfortunate."

Luke: "Unfortunate that I know the truth?!"

Yoda: "No! Unfortunate that you rushed to face him! That incomplete was your training! That not ready for the burden were you!"

Luke: "I'm sorry."

I reckon Yoda didn't feel that Luke was ready to withstand the physical and psychological onslaught that he knew Vader would subject him to. Add to this that, in Yoda's mind, the return of the Jedi is the only hope for the galaxy and you have a very good reason for Yoda to be against Luke going to help his friends.

Anyone agree with that assessment?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Yes, I think your assement fits.

Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
in Yoda's mind, the return of the Jedi is the only hope for the galaxy

I don't doubt this was Yoda's opinion, but I have to then think that he had pretty much stopped caring about the galaxy by the time of ESB. Let's assume that he knew where the young Luke and Leia were "hidden" (I say "assume" because I only saw the PT once, and even if it establishes that he knew I still don't consider the PT to be gospel to my perception of the Star Wars story). What was he doing in that swamp? I guess you could suppose that he was counting on Obi-Wan to lead Luke to him, but what about Leia? You'd think he'd have some sort of plan for getting her trained. Since apparently he didn't, I would assume that he had grown tired of the struggle and didn't care so much. Now, once Luke did find him, it would seem that his hope & concern for the galaxy had been renewed. But prior to that...........

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
So really, what's with Yoda's warning?


That's always bugged me to a degree as well. Same with his statement that facing Vader was his final test to become a Jedi. I never understood how he could propose either idea so I just sort of ignored them. Nothing outright contradicted anything he said anyways.

I actually felt that, since Luke didn't leave right away, that he learned just enough after that point to possibly prevent Yoda's prophecy.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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LOL we have to read between the lines here, I think.

They fought and suffered because Vader wanted Luke. They would have 'won' I suppose if they sacraficed themselves for Luke. And they did actually... Han, Lando, Chewie, Leia all knew that it was a trap for luke when Lando came in and said that Vader was after someone named Skywalker.

So luke just leaping ass first into vader's trap would kinda be a problem for them if we consider how Leia and han shouldn't want Luke to somehow wind up in their situation.

That's what I took from it anyway.
He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

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...er, it's like this...

"If you leave now, help them you could..." - this referes to Luke helping Han, Leia, Chewie etc to escape (at this point Han wasn't in carbonite)

"but you will you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." - Bassically Yoda didn't have confidence in Luke to beat Vader - he thought he'd be destroyed or become a Sith, either would be disastrous for the rebellion as Luke was the key to it's victory.

Essentially loosing Luke would be the undoing of the rebellion (evertything that Leia et all had fought and suffered for).

I think this is one of the best lines in the trilogy as it tells you to weigh up your actions - what might feel the right thing to do right now may not be the right thing to do when you consider the bigger picture. Yoda was suggesting Luke sacrifice his friends for the greater cause.

All about stratergy, self control and sacrifice...
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Yeah, that's how people take the line, myself included. But he does speak of Luke destroying what they fought for using definite terms and that makes it a bit hard to call it just a guess. You're probably right though. Yoda was proven wrong.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
So really, what's with Yoda's warning?
Do you honestly not understand the plot?


Geez, boris, harsh. It's a perfectly good question and not the first time Yoda's actions and lines in ESB have been debated. So chill out.

But anyway, everyone here has pretty much summed up my feelings on this matter. It is a pretty weird thing and has some ambiguity to it. But they did manage to get through it without falling afoul of anything Yoda warned about. I also find it weird that Yoda is so eager for Luke to face Vader the second time around. I mean, how could Luke's self-training in that year make him so much different in between the two movies?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape

I mean, how could Luke's self-training in that year make him so much different in between the two movies?


I know, talk about a forced plot point. Luke didn't even find it strange that Yoda completely took a reversed position.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
So really, what's with Yoda's warning? Do you honestly not understand the plot?


Geez, boris, harsh. It's a perfectly good question and not the first time Yoda's actions and lines in ESB have been debated. So chill out.


I wasn't really offended by boris' line.

But anyway, everyone here has pretty much summed up my feelings on this matter. It is a pretty weird thing and has some ambiguity to it. But they did manage to get through it without falling afoul of anything Yoda warned about. I also find it weird that Yoda is so eager for Luke to face Vader the second time around. I mean, how could Luke's self-training in that year make him so much different in between the two movies?


Actually, Yoda's reversal of stance makes sense to me, if we go with the idea that he was afraid of Luke finding out that Vader was his father and thus, either being destroyed or turning to the Dark Side. By the time ROTJ comes around, Luke's been dealing with that knowledge for a year. Remember also that Darth Vader was turned by hatred, anger, and a desire for power. By this point it's proven that Luke has none of these things--he cares not about greatness or control, he merely wants to protect people and try to bring his father back to the good side. Neither the emperor nor Darth Vader had any hope of turning him to the dark side. Even if Luke HAD given into his anger and killed both the Emperor and Darth Vader, he would've immediately regretted it and spent the rest of his life trying to make up for his sin (either that or commit seppuku).
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Don't you mean Harry Carey?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Either way, it's sayonara...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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It is interesting to compare how Luke and Anakin were exposed to loss . Luke didn't have premonitions about Owen and Beru's death, just suddenly they were gone. He never had that period of "crap, this might happen, how can I stop it?" followed by the "crap, I was too late to stop it, but if I were only a little quicker!" He didn't have to doubt his actions like Anakin did with regards to his initial losses. The second he has a premonition about Han, Leia and friends, he immediately starts freaking out and becoming pro-active against it. That's why Yoda and Obi-Wan are worried. Suddenly it's Anakin's need to help his friends as a priority over the greater good of the galaxy shining though. It's a very volatile situation.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Luke is a great character because he screws up a lot, but is ultimately a better man than Yoda or Ben. They were wrong, they just wanted him to kill his father!
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There's another line of dialogue that's always bugged me. This is from ANH:

"There'll be no escape for the princess this time."

And then later, C-3PO doesn't even recognize the princess!

Though I at least know why this one was screwed up--in the novelization 3PO says "There'll be no escape for the CAPTAIN this time." I really wish they had kept that in the movie.
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I always assumed he simply didn't know what the princess looked like.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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That's a pretty good theory, too. I've never thought of it like that.

But wouldn't the restraining bolt or the fact that Luke is now his master override that? I mean, I know it didn't work for R2, but he seemed to seriously believe that he belonged to Obi-Wan Kenobi and, therefore, had no loyalty to Luke.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I always assumed he simply didn't know what the princess looked like.


Yeah, he was basically a lowly slave and that's what I always assumed as well.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I always assumed he simply didn't know what the princess looked like.


Yeah, he was basically a lowly slave and that's what I always assumed as well.


No! You're wrong! He's been best friends with all the heroes in the history of the galaxy! Didn't you watch the prequels?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.