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If the Sith are the Bad Guys in the PT

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If the Dark Jedi/Sith are the bad guys of the Clone Wars/PT, then why does no one apparently care that Vader and Palpatine are two extremely prominent/well known leaders/executors of the Gov't.

You might make a case that very few people in the OT know that Emperor Palpatine is a (Dark) force user, but Vader?

Does anyone else here read Marvel Comics?  Mild Spoilers for anyone who does not:

The Skrull Secret Invasion ends when "apparently on the mend, but still a rather bad guy" Normon Osborn gets a kill-shot on the right Skrull and sends them packing.  He's lauded as the hero that did what all of the Marvel superheroes (Ironman, S.H.I.E.L.D., the X-Men, etc.) couldn't, and he's given the keys to the kingdom for a while.  He abuses them from day one, and controls his PR very well... but eventually it all catches up with him.

Back to the PT.  What if the Dark Jedi/Sith are the conquerors of the Clone Wars?  What if they drive out the enemy horde, and then the Republic is willing to try things their way for a span?

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

If the Dark Jedi/Sith are the bad guys of the Clone Wars/PT, then why does no one apparently care that Vader and Palpatine are two extremely prominent/well known leaders/executors of the Gov't.

You might make a case that very few people in the OT know that Emperor Palpatine is a (Dark) force user, but Vader?

Does anyone else here read Marvel Comics?  Mild Spoilers for anyone who does not:

The Skrull Secret Invasion ends when "apparently on the mend, but still a rather bad guy" Normon Osborn gets a kill-shot on the right Skrull and sends them packing.  He's lauded as the hero that did what all of the Marvel superheroes (Ironman, S.H.I.E.L.D., the X-Men, etc.) couldn't, and he's given the keys to the kingdom for a while.  He abuses them from day one, and controls his PR very well... but eventually it all catches up with him.

Back to the PT.  What if the Dark Jedi/Sith are the conquerors of the Clone Wars?  What if they drive out the enemy horde, and then the Republic is willing to try things their way for a span?

I think you have Mr. Osborn mixed up with some obscure Christian sect.

Interesting idea on perspective of the movies characters.  I was just reading in Ady's ESB thread and it got me thinking.  What if the Hoth invasion was told from General Veers perspective?  If that was a self-contained story, could it have the same feel as Luke's descruction of the Death Star did?  Imperial Walkers are falling left and right and Veers breaks through at the last second, shooting down an attacking speeder and manages to seize victory by destroying the shield generator of those terrorist rebels?

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xhonzi said:

If the Dark Jedi/Sith are the bad guys of the Clone Wars/PT, then why does no one apparently care that Vader and Palpatine are two extremely prominent/well known leaders/executors of the Gov't.

You might make a case that very few people in the OT know that Emperor Palpatine is a (Dark) force user, but Vader?

Does anyone else here read Marvel Comics?  Mild Spoilers for anyone who does not:

The Skrull Secret Invasion ends when "apparently on the mend, but still a rather bad guy" Normon Osborn gets a kill-shot on the right Skrull and sends them packing.  He's lauded as the hero that did what all of the Marvel superheroes (Ironman, S.H.I.E.L.D., the X-Men, etc.) couldn't, and he's given the keys to the kingdom for a while.  He abuses them from day one, and controls his PR very well... but eventually it all catches up with him.

Back to the PT.  What if the Dark Jedi/Sith are the conquerors of the Clone Wars?  What if they drive out the enemy horde, and then the Republic is willing to try things their way for a span?

 

That's a good question. Maybe once the Emperor is in power he can pretty much do what he wants, including having Vader do whatever. With the Emperor I think his disfigurement was Lucas's out on why the galaxy would follow such an evil looking dude. I thought that scene was retarded though. IMO, the politics of the galaxy seem totally different to me from PT to OT, although most people I think thought it was a good transition.

You raise good questions though, if you recall in SW, the Empire was really worried what would happen with the Senate until the Emperor did away with it, Vader also was very worried about how the Tantive IV thing would look to the rest of the galaxy, staging the whole distress signal thing. BTW, sorry if this was incoherent, very tired.

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Sluggo said:

I think you have Mr. Osborn mixed up with some obscure Christian sect.

???

What if the Hoth invasion was told from General Veers perspective? 

I've had this thought as well.  Generally, I'm a moral absolutist (this is right, that is wrong) and don't have a lot of patience for "perspective".  Oh, this child molester is actually not doing anything wrong, from his perspective, etc.

But then again, I do believe that most people who commit evil don't see it that way.  Not that it makes it right, or neutral, but that they have rationalized away the reality that what they're doing is wrong so they can go ahead and do it anyways.

If one doctor says, "Yes, you can eat 10 lbs of bacon for breakfast and lose weight.  It's healthy!" and 9 doctors say to that doctor, "What are you a doctor of, exactly?"... A lot of people will listen to the 1 doctor because they can convince themselves that a 10lb bacon breakfast is not only delicious! but also good for them.

So, I think you could show the invasion from Veers perspective.  However, I don't think the morality of the situation is actualy relative.  You might make him the 'protagonist'... but you won't make him a 'good guy'.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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You mentioned Normon Osborn... nvm.

You are generally an absolutist?  :p

xhonzi said:

But then again, I do believe that most people who commit evil don't see it that way.  Not that it makes it right, or neutral, but that they have rationalized away the reality that what they're doing is wrong so they can go ahead and do it anyways.

 

I agree with this.  I guess I envision the Veers story as some type of pro-Empire propaganda film.  Heck, it could make for an interesting fan film.

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You mentioned Normon Osborn... nvm.

Oh yeah... the Normons... I've heard of them.

You are generally an absolutist? :p

It's harder than it looks.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Time
 (Edited)

It all depends on how you develop the Sith idea.

When I was working on my NPT, the Sith were a proactive offshoot of the Jedi, who wore dark cloaks and masks to hide their identities from their brothers.

If you want the whole "force religion" to be concidered ancient by the OT, you can use the NPT to discredit the Jedi.  Remember: the Jedi ONLY use the force for knowledge and defense.  During the Clone Wars they would help with strategy, but I don't think they would lead assaults.  This could lead to the general populace feeling the Jedi might be disloyal.  They shouldn't be creeps like in the PT, but the other characters and the audience may see their traditions, beliefs and actions as ineffectual considering the darker times.

In my NPT EPI, Anakin inadvertantly inspires the creation of the Sith Order.  This was revealed in my EPII, which was a mystery of who these dark clad warriors were.  By EPIII, Palpatine is made Emperor and tells the Jedi that their assistance, lacking as it is, is no longer required.  The Sith are greeted in the Senate chamber with cheers because they are willing to do what is necessary to end the Clone Wars.

My goal was to have the audience agree with the people of the republic and the sith up to EPIII where they would feel... oops, this has gone too far.

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WheresBlackhawk said:

Remember: the Jedi ONLY use the force for knowledge and defense.  During the Clone Wars they would help with strategy, but I don't think they would lead assaults.

This is why I feel a distinction must be made between Jedi Masters (like Yoda) - "knowledge and defense" - and Jedi Knights (Obi-Wan), who actually do fight, but don't use the Force itself to harm others (as Sith do).

Basically, Jedi Masters don't fight at all, and don't have lightsabers, while Jedi Knights use lightsabers for fighting, but still don't use the Force itself for attack purposes.

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WheresBlackhawk said:

It all depends on how you develop the Sith idea.

When I was working on my NPT, the Sith were a proactive offshoot of the Jedi, who wore dark cloaks and masks to hide their identities from their brothers.

If you want the whole "force religion" to be concidered ancient by the OT, you can use the NPT to discredit the Jedi.  Remember: the Jedi ONLY use the force for knowledge and defense.  During the Clone Wars they would help with strategy, but I don't think they would lead assaults.  This could lead to the general populace feeling the Jedi might be disloyal.  They shouldn't be creeps like in the PT, but the other characters and the audience may see their traditions, beliefs and actions as ineffectual considering the darker times.

In my NPT EPI, Anakin inadvertantly inspires the creation of the Sith Order.  This was revealed in my EPII, which was a mystery of who these dark clad warriors were.  By EPIII, Palpatine is made Emperor and tells the Jedi that their assistance, lacking as it is, is no longer required.  The Sith are greeted in the Senate chamber with cheers because they are willing to do what is necessary to end the Clone Wars.

My goal was to have the audience agree with the people of the republic and the sith up to EPIII where they would feel... oops, this has gone too far.

In my world you hit the nail on the head. With what I'm working on, these are the issues that I'm concerned with when it comes to the Republic part of the story. The Republic is really debating whether they should enter the war or not. Is it the right choice?

I don't have the Emperor as a Sith, but just a dark sorcerer who will later take control of the DLOS and the Sith to do his dirty work behind the scenes. I think the relationship between Jedi and Sith should really be a little more gray than black and white. That it shouldn't take too much of an imagination to see where the Sith are coming from, or at least how they could consider themselves not completely evil but doing something that is necessary, even if they have to "cut some corners". That depending on your point of view, the better way might be the Sith way because it seems stronger and more resolute. I think this is how societies or people turn to evil. They choose what they think is the lesser of two evils, it just doesn't end up being that way in the end. I think that's more of a plausible way that Anakin would turn. He sees the Jedi as weak, not willing to take enough action, and the toils of war have also gotten to him. He is tempted by the power of the Sith to resolve the conflict, but then it's just a slippery slope and by the end he embraces evil. I think by the end of the PT, he should really be straight up evil like he was in ANH. I don't have him starting the Sith Order, but I have him taking it over. Although, I think I have the Jedi vs. Sith thing more in the background than your version. I have that as more of an older conflict, with the Force already an "ancient religion". Ancient just doesn't equal 20 years to me.

My goal as far as the arc of the Republic turned Empire is for the audience to also think that the galaxy and that Anakin are making the right choices, and by the end to say, oops, I guess I would have went down that path too with the information I was given. Or at least the majority to feel that way.

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ChainsawAsh said:

WheresBlackhawk said:

Remember: the Jedi ONLY use the force for knowledge and defense.  During the Clone Wars they would help with strategy, but I don't think they would lead assaults.

This is why I feel a distinction must be made between Jedi Masters (like Yoda) - "knowledge and defense" - and Jedi Knights (Obi-Wan), who actually do fight, but don't use the Force itself to harm others (as Sith do).

Basically, Jedi Masters don't fight at all, and don't have lightsabers, while Jedi Knights use lightsabers for fighting, but still don't use the Force itself for attack purposes.

Agree with you too, sir. =) I don't think that Palpatine should have a lightsaber either, it really diminishes his character IMO. When you attain that level I think you're above the physicality of conflict. Seeing the lightsaber in Yoda and Palpatine's hands just didn't seem like it was in their character to me.

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Exactly.  The Yoda/Palpatine fight in ROTS is, in my opinion, possibly the lowest point of the entire PT.