Ideas, Info & Help Wanted: a 16mm Telecine-Projector Project

As some of you may know, I have a couple of prints I’m interested in preserving - a 16mm low-fade print of American Graffiti, and (the more interesting of the two) a 16mm low-fade 1st generation print of Song of the South.

Another member and I are attempting to build a telecine machine from a 16mm projector, and will then begin the scanning. However, it is this first step which is the most difficult, so this thread was created to get some ideas as to how we might go about modifying the projector. Our plan is to set up a digital camera in the lens, and illuminating the film with an ultra-bright LED. The projector will be slowed to 1 fps, and a computer connection will enable the projector to notify both the camera and the computer that a frame has been captured, and that it will now move to the next frame.

If anyone has any ideas or advice, please let us know!

Thanks in advance!

http://vimeo.com/20950590

This is not a single frame scan, as you say you want to do, yet the results from 8mm seem to be of a very high quality.

Besides, it seems really easy to do, so it could be a backup solution (worst case scenario).

These are the results he obtains:

http://www.vimeo.com/20900718

http://www.vimeo.com/20871186

Hope this helps :)

Looks like a good idea. But what about the audio ? Will you capture it like analog audio with a stereo/rca output from the projector ? Because the method I posted earlyer showed how to do an optical capture of it and re-convert it.

Anyway, keep us posted with your progress, guys.

I could do either. IMHO, the audio captured from my Kodak Pageant 250S is much better than a reconstruction using the captured analog.

monks19 said:

Because the method I posted earlyer showed how to do an optical capture of it and re-convert it.

Is that I good link (to vimeo.com)? I looked and saw only an entrance page for a particular group (the 7 listed videos didn't include your mentioned optical capture and re-convert to audio of a film's audio track -- something which I've always thought to be intriguing and more accurate).

Here's part of an email I sent to Antcufaalb. We're still working out how to get the projectors modified - stay tuned.

"Figured I'd give you a heads-up on what's going on with the projectors. I got the Singer/Graflex last week, and have been mulling over how to convert it to a telecine. It actually is pretty nice, as it has adjustable tension on the gate - stronger for more warped films, less strong for flat films. Also, it is a 3 blade, and one of the blades is marked "Frame Change," and it is the one that covers the frame while it is being changed. I think I could get rid of the other two blades and be good as far as that is concerned, and that third blade (or the axle on which it revolves) would be a good candidate for the sensor unit. Also, the light is pretty easy to get to, so that is good. Now I just have to figure out what mechanics to get rid of in order to make it more streamlined (and easier to work with). I'm going to probably need a smaller motor, and probably DC, as I can't see any reason for a powerful AC motor. I'll widen the gate on all sides and get an LED in there, and should be good that way.

Spaced Ranger, that's where I got the information.

Hope it'll help

@monks19

Thanks for the extra link. Too bad not much info there either (as regards methodology, which is what I seek).

.

@ww12345

It looks like you are well on your way with your 16mm transfer machine. I just wanted to point out (hopefully not too late) some informative discussions I've come across. johnmeyer over at Doom 9 has gone through the process and made insightful comments of his experience. Here are some particularly salient ones (search for more of his posts there):

Doom 9's Forum: High Speed Film to Video Transfer Machine -- Need IVTC Help
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106837

"I have talked to Roger Evans (Moviestuff) .... The problem is that Roger is a "hardware" guy and has never felt comfortable with the software side of things. ... This is too bad, because I can capture frame-accurate, like his Workprinter, but at full 24 fps, and I can capture to a cheap HDV camera, whereas if he is going to do HD, he will have to use a camera that can export individual frames in HD, or will have to use a still camera (which of course would produce exceptional results, but would once again be very slow)."

"As to the advantages of using a still camera, I am agree that they are better in ALMOST every way. Resolution is only one of their advantages: Better lenses, as you point out, but also MUCH better dynamic range, better sensitivity, etc. However, the big downside -- and this is why Roger started out using camcorders and still does -- is that they take discrete pictures (rather than continuous) and therefore you have to slow the projector (or whatever you use to advance the film)."

Doom 9's Forum: Hdr Agc 1.8.7 - 10.09.2006
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=868799#post868799

"Thanks first to the author and also to VideoFred. I'm using my 16mm 24fps film-to-video transfer device (which I've described in other threads) to transfer another 31 cans of film. HDRAGC is doing a MUCH better job of adjusting the gamma than what I was able to do in Vegas, a program that actually gives you pretty good control over levels, gamma, curves, and color. I'm still going to touch up levels in Vegas, and I'm going to do all the color timing (correction) there, but HDRAGC gives me a HUGE headstart."

Not too late at all. I haven't started modifying any projectors yet, so I'll check out those links and see what ideas I can get from them.

I came across a couple more links of interesting information (if you haven't already discovered them):

Doom 9's forum: Recover image from shutterless 16mm projector capture
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1531961

"I have posted here before about the unique way that I capture film from a shutterless 24 fps 16mm projector."

"I remove the shutter from the projector; I then point an NTSC interlaced camcorder (it HAS to be NTSC, and it has to be able to capture interlaced video -- 60p would also probably work) at the projector and set the shutter speed to 1/1000 of a second. It turns out that doing this absolutely guarantees that the camera will capture two successive fields from each frame of film. The video camera and the projector are not synchronized, so as the capture proceeds, sometimes you get two good fields in a row, with the next field all blurred because the film is captured during the moment the projector is moving the film to the next frame (remember, the shutter has been removed)."

He includes samples of his raw-captured and post-processed efforts. Crisp. Clean. Impressive.

And I think he mentioned using the "reverse lens" trick for capturing from a projector. If not him, it still is a useful technique and described well here:

Reverse-Lens Macro Photography [tutorial]
http://stephenelliot.com/2007/05/15/reverse-lens-macro-photography-tutorial/

Hi, any fresh news on that project ?

Started modding the projectors - still can't get the projector to do 1fps. I'm getting a new dc motor soon...

Ok, nice.

Would we be able to remove the shutter blades that don't cover the pulldown (leaving one remaining) and use a constant light source, and video that with an HD video camera?

Hmmmm... I may have to try that this weekend. I don't think I can slow down the camera, but I can probably hook up the LED and use a regular digital camera (30fps) shooting video as a test to see how that would work...

I knew what you meant - I just don't have a way to slow down the projector (yet).