Aren't there credit texts over those shots?
Currently looking for the following preservations: V8 A Final Attempt by Arnie.D, Pre-ANH Bootleg Telecine, Starkiller '77 bootleg, LD OT by Cowclops, LD OT by Dr. Gonzo, LD OT by Farsight, LD OT by ISOMIX, LD OT by Dark/Sega Take 1, TPM Theatrical by Adywan, OT - Deliberate Creative, OCPMovie's Classic Editions, Pan & Scan O-OT Project, LD OT by EditDroid, Lucasfilm Pwnage Editions, Negative1 CED Preservations, Starkiller CED Preservation, Rowman bonus discs, BLAK0004, BLAK0009, BLAK0010, BLAK0016, BLAK0017, BLAK0029, BLAK0040, BLAK0046, BLAK0047-0050. Also a good preservation of the 97 SEs.
Not the entire duration, and I would only use quick flashes anyway (probably sped up too, since those shots are in slow motion in the film) - if I do end up using them at all (which I might not), I'm pretty confident that I can avoid the credit text.
The question of whether to use them is a toughie. Things to consider are 1) the shots aren't in the comics, 2) there's a good argument to be made that flashbacks of that particular variety aren't common to the comics, and 3) there's just as good of an argument to be made that such flashbacks ARE common to the comics. Not sure what my call would be.
If the goal is to just make the flick BETTER, I'd say definitely use them.
Currently looking for the following preservations: V8 A Final Attempt by Arnie.D, Pre-ANH Bootleg Telecine, Starkiller '77 bootleg, LD OT by Cowclops, LD OT by Dr. Gonzo, LD OT by Farsight, LD OT by ISOMIX, LD OT by Dark/Sega Take 1, TPM Theatrical by Adywan, OT - Deliberate Creative, OCPMovie's Classic Editions, Pan & Scan O-OT Project, LD OT by EditDroid, Lucasfilm Pwnage Editions, Negative1 CED Preservations, Starkiller CED Preservation, Rowman bonus discs, BLAK0004, BLAK0009, BLAK0010, BLAK0016, BLAK0017, BLAK0029, BLAK0040, BLAK0046, BLAK0047-0050. Also a good preservation of the 97 SEs.
ChainsawAsh said:Not the entire duration, and I would only use quick flashes anyway (probably sped up too, since those shots are in slow motion in the film) - if I do end up using them at all (which I might not), I'm pretty confident that I can avoid the credit text.
Pay close attention to the credit text. There are several instances where the credits are reflected or shadowed onto the scene itself, and others where the characters are walking in front of or behind the credits, as if the text is physically there in the scene with the actors.
My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.
I know, but that isn't the case before and after the text itself fades in.
I've just checked, and the Dollar Bill shot may be usable (but not much of it), and the first half or so of both the Mothman and Silhouette shots are definitely usable.
And Jono11, you're right that those flashbacks aren't in the novel - while I'm trying to bring this closer to the novel on the one hand, I also recognize the need to change things in order to make the film work as a standalone film. I think that using these flashbacks might help clear up some confusion in the minds of viewers as to who the hell Rorschach is talking about in his narration there.
On the other hand, I don't want to beat the audience over the head with it (which is something I thought Snyder's credits sequence did), so if it feels out of place, I won't use them.
ChainsawAsh said:I don't think there's enough material available to make it into a decent miniseries, but I could look into doing 20- or 30-minute segments. They wouldn't be the exact same chapters as the graphic novel (obviously, since that would be 5 and a half hours long if each chapter was 20 to 30 minutes), but it might work.Hello CSA, hope you don't mind my two cents here...
Being something more akin to the actual comic book, it might be at least interesting to try and structure it like the CB (or even the moving comic blu-ray). Regardless of whether it is watchable at 5+ hours non-stop, the 5 part breaks would allow for the same rhythm as the CB.
I'll look into less Nixon. No promises there (it's generally unavoidable).
Maybe you could replace the DR STRANGELOVE war room scenes with actual clips of Nixon. One way you could get around having Nixon say the lines in the movies is have the focus on Kissinger while Nixon speaks and vice versa. You could take footage and whiten the hair of both characters (or not).
Or you could just excise him. I would have to watch the movie again to get a better feel as to how necessary the scenes were. I would DEFINITELY see if you could work some Adywan magic on those Nixon posters and replace the bad make-uped actor with an actual Nixon image.
Definitely more Philip Glass, I'd like to use more Dylan (I'm going to try to find a new spot for The Times They Are A-Changin' since I'm removing the credits). In re-reading the graphic novel, I've discovered that Desolation Row is quoted in the first chapter, so I'll look into placing it in that section of the film if possible. If not, so be it. It'll likely go in the credits, mainly since I can't find that John Cale song (Sanities) fucking anywhere.
I agree, or at least play around and have some fun with the music - maybe use 1940s to 50s music during the earlier years footage and take music from the 60s, 70s and 80s to play with what is happening according to the time that said event is happening. One idea I always wanted to play with was to take songs like ELEANOR RIGBY or any number of GENESIS songs in Phil Collin's early days and take out the vocals and just use the background instrumentals as a form of a soundtrack.
Here are the Rorschach's-death-scene shots I'll likely have trouble with, and they all involve removing Dan from the image:
The motion is what will make this hard (duh!), BUUUT the good thing I guess is that Nite-Owl is standing within a fairly plain tunnel. You will probably have to start with erasing Nite-Owl and then recreate the blue glow around Doc M. When Rorcharch blows up, maybe you could create a "blood cloud" similar to what happens to Willam Defoe in WILD AT HEART when he blows his face off with a shotgun. You would still have the chunks, but some added chunks and blood mist/cloud effects may be enough to obscure what Nite-Owl elements you can't erase.
Other than that, I would LOVE it if you could:
(1) play with all of the ludicrous "slo-mo" and speed some of it up to normal speed. Granted, you are cutting out a lot of the scenes that pretty much involve the slo-mo stuff at its silliest, but something to consider. I do love the idea of the Comedian attack being interwoven with the cops at the crime scene.
(2) is there any way to recreate the MAD MAX ending to the child molester (as opposed to the hatchet to the head)?
(3) I don't want to start a tennis match back-and-forth on this, since it's been done to death at AINT IT COOL alone, but is there any way to bring back the Squid? I know, short of taking a HD DISCOVERY channel doc and doing some heavy editing and FX work, it would probably be impossible, but again, just a suggestion (one idea to bring the squid back is that said squid is inside the spherical container Doc M creates - that way you can still keep the stuff that is in the movie. That would only leave the climax to alter).
Regardless, sounds pretty ambitious. Good luck and take your time!
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
Sadly, the squid ending is impossible to recreate. It would not only require new footage of the squid itself, but an entirely new monologue by Viedt on top of it.
I'd like to try to recreate the original ending to the child molester scene, but if it can't be pulled off in a way that screams "THIS IS A FAN EDIT!" then I'll be leaving it as is.
And most of the slow motion that remains will be sped up to at least not be so ridiculously slow (it might be difficult to get some of it to look convincing at "normal speed" without knowing what framerate it was shot at).
And thanks for the tips on erasing Dan from that scene - that will help quite a bit.
Don't discount the possibility of keeping the slo-mo scenes as is. Most people associate it with "bullet time" from The Matrix, but James Cameron did about a half-dozen slo-mo scenes in T2. He explained it as a way to make it easier for the audience to get the geography of where various characters were in scenes where it would have been hard to keep track of them if it were shown in real time.
My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.
Oh, I'm not saying that all slow-mo is bad, nor am I planning on getting rid of all of it. There are just certain parts in the film where I don't think it works (Comedian jumping off the Owlship, for one) - on the other hand, I think the slow-mo in the Hollis Mason murder scene is perfect. In fact, I won't be altering that scene in any way, shape, or form - it's brilliant, and I'm still furious that it was cut from the theatrical release (damn IMAX and its time limits ... )
I don't think IMAX had anything to do with it. I saw the film in a regular theater and that scene wasn't in there either.
My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.
They had to make the film's running time fit the 2hr 45min (or thereabouts) IMAX limit, because Warner Bros. wouldn't let them do separate 35mm and IMAX versions. So the 35mm theatrical cut's length was limited by the maximum-allowable time for IMAX presentation.
Ok, I didn't realize IMAX figured into it like that.
My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.
Monroville said:I agree, or at least play around and have some fun with the music - maybe use 1940s to 50s music during the earlier years footage and take music from the 60s, 70s and 80s to play with what is happening according to the time that said event is happening. One idea I always wanted to play with was to take songs like ELEANOR RIGBY or any number of GENESIS songs in Phil Collin's early days and take out the vocals and just use the background instrumentals as a form of a soundtrack.
I like what you're saying about playing with the music and the different time periods...but isn't that what Zack Snyder did, and got called "too clever" for doing it?
(3) I don't want to start a tennis match back-and-forth on this, since it's been done to death at AINT IT COOL alone, but is there any way to bring back the Squid? I know, short of taking a HD DISCOVERY channel doc and doing some heavy editing and FX work, it would probably be impossible, but again, just a suggestion (one idea to bring the squid back is that said squid is inside the spherical container Doc M creates - that way you can still keep the stuff that is in the movie. That would only leave the climax to alter).
I know you don't want to start a tennis match, so I assume neither of us will let it degenerate into that, but I'm curious as to why you would want to. Surely you don't think it could ever be pulled off onscreen in a convincingly foreboding, terrifying way?
Currently looking for the following preservations: V8 A Final Attempt by Arnie.D, Pre-ANH Bootleg Telecine, Starkiller '77 bootleg, LD OT by Cowclops, LD OT by Dr. Gonzo, LD OT by Farsight, LD OT by ISOMIX, LD OT by Dark/Sega Take 1, TPM Theatrical by Adywan, OT - Deliberate Creative, OCPMovie's Classic Editions, Pan & Scan O-OT Project, LD OT by EditDroid, Lucasfilm Pwnage Editions, Negative1 CED Preservations, Starkiller CED Preservation, Rowman bonus discs, BLAK0004, BLAK0009, BLAK0010, BLAK0016, BLAK0017, BLAK0029, BLAK0040, BLAK0046, BLAK0047-0050. Also a good preservation of the 97 SEs.
I think it could have worked had it been shot and conceived that way for the film, but it wasn't, and there's really no way to change it now that the Dr. M ending is in place.
Frankly, to me, the image of millions of dead, mutilated corpses strewn about New York is far more terrifying than an empty, burned hole in the ground. But I don't mind the movie's ending, and it's not like there's anything I can do about it anyway.
Glad to see you are going to tackle this Ash. An edit like this is something I have thought long and hard about myself, but decided not to bother with, since I really feel the Dr. M ending just simply doesn't work, and if there is no way to fix that, there is not point in trying to save this film...
Not saying this to discourage you, but that is what discouraged me from trying to do an edit like this myself. Still, even with the botched ending, there is a lot of good film there, and many of your ideas stand to make it even better. For how closely this movie followed its source material, there were a lot of nonsensical "small" changes that really brought it down (Rorschach death, many over the top bits, extremely goofy musical sequences).
Good luck with this. I will definitely be looking forward to seeing what you come up with. And I'd love to see you successfully recreate the original ending to the child molester bit. You are right, it would be hard to do it without it screaming fanedit, but if it can be done, I think it would be quite an improvement. The scene was obviously changed to add some more over the top explotation film style gore, and it did it at the expence of a very powerful moment.
Also, I like your idea of adding the ending quote from the GN before the credits. Have you considered adding all the chapter quotes into the film? Not sure if it would work, but I think it might be kind of cool to divide up the chapters with a fade to black>white text with quote>fade to next scene. Again, not sure if this would work, or just mess up the pacing, but at the moment it sure looks cool in my head as I imagine it.
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
C3PX said:Also, I like your idea of adding the ending quote from the GN before the credits. Have you considered adding all the chapter quotes into the film? Not sure if it would work, but I think it might be kind of cool to divide up the chapters with a fade to black>white text with quote>fade to next scene. Again, not sure if this would work, or just mess up the pacing, but at the moment it sure looks cool in my head as I imagine it.
I'd like to see that too...if it works. If you are going to do an edit like this then you may as well go all the way - otherwise it's just making a long movie longer.
I'm definitely going to attempt that. I'm resistant to the idea of cutting it up into a 12-part "miniseries"-type thing, simply because I'm fairly certain that some of the "chapters" are much longer than others in their filmed state. It would be a little odd to see a 40-minute "episode," then the next one is 10 minutes. I don't know if the difference would, in fact, be so extreme, but I'll see how it works when I get to the edit itself.
ChainsawAsh said:I'm definitely going to attempt that. I'm resistant to the idea of cutting it up into a 12-part "miniseries"-type thing, simply because I'm fairly certain that some of the "chapters" are much longer than others in their filmed state. It would be a little odd to see a 40-minute "episode," then the next one is 10 minutes. I don't know if the difference would, in fact, be so extreme, but I'll see how it works when I get to the edit itself.
I think that would be a different edit. But it would be easy enough to take that Director's Cut, watch it, watch the Tales of the Black Freighter DVD, and see how the different segments come out on film in terms of time. I think I might try to do that this week.
Currently looking for the following preservations: V8 A Final Attempt by Arnie.D, Pre-ANH Bootleg Telecine, Starkiller '77 bootleg, LD OT by Cowclops, LD OT by Dr. Gonzo, LD OT by Farsight, LD OT by ISOMIX, LD OT by Dark/Sega Take 1, TPM Theatrical by Adywan, OT - Deliberate Creative, OCPMovie's Classic Editions, Pan & Scan O-OT Project, LD OT by EditDroid, Lucasfilm Pwnage Editions, Negative1 CED Preservations, Starkiller CED Preservation, Rowman bonus discs, BLAK0004, BLAK0009, BLAK0010, BLAK0016, BLAK0017, BLAK0029, BLAK0040, BLAK0046, BLAK0047-0050. Also a good preservation of the 97 SEs.
Don't forget that the Ultimate Cut will include additional footage of the newsvendor and the kid to transition between Black Freighter and the film itself. That's why I'm waiting until then to do this cut.
ChainsawAsh said:Don't forget that the Ultimate Cut will include additional footage of the newsvendor and the kid to transition between Black Freighter and the film itself. That's why I'm waiting until then to do this cut.
Oh, seriously? Cool. Still, I can probably get a roughed-out idea of how it would break down in episodes.
How do they do that? Do they just treat the Black Freighter sequences as an animated version of the comic book that the kid is reading? Does anyone know?
Currently looking for the following preservations: V8 A Final Attempt by Arnie.D, Pre-ANH Bootleg Telecine, Starkiller '77 bootleg, LD OT by Cowclops, LD OT by Dr. Gonzo, LD OT by Farsight, LD OT by ISOMIX, LD OT by Dark/Sega Take 1, TPM Theatrical by Adywan, OT - Deliberate Creative, OCPMovie's Classic Editions, Pan & Scan O-OT Project, LD OT by EditDroid, Lucasfilm Pwnage Editions, Negative1 CED Preservations, Starkiller CED Preservation, Rowman bonus discs, BLAK0004, BLAK0009, BLAK0010, BLAK0016, BLAK0017, BLAK0029, BLAK0040, BLAK0046, BLAK0047-0050. Also a good preservation of the 97 SEs.
ChainsawAsh said:I'm definitely going to attempt that. I'm resistant to the idea of cutting it up into a 12-part "miniseries"-type thing, simply because I'm fairly certain that some of the "chapters" are much longer than others in their filmed state. It would be a little odd to see a 40-minute "episode," then the next one is 10 minutes. I don't know if the difference would, in fact, be so extreme, but I'll see how it works when I get to the edit itself.
I wasn't suggesting to devide it up into 12 separate chapters or into a 12 part "miniseries", but just to insert a black screen with the quotes between scenes in the film corresponding with there location in the comic (which is between chapters). I'd still recommend keeping it one long film. I think it would just be kind of cool to include the quotes, perhaps it would make it feel even more like the GN. But again, not sure how it will effect pacing.
Jono11 said:How do they do that? Do they just treat the Black Freighter sequences as an animated version of the comic book that the kid is reading? Does anyone know?
Not sure, but I am willing to bet they have some clever transition.
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
Having watched the film again last night for the first time since the cinema, I have a renewed interest in what you are trying to do here.
Feeling inspired i thought I'd do a quick mock up for one of the ideas [sort of] suggested - It's far from perfect [the font is wrong for one thing] but mainly I was just trying to keep it in the style of the main titles without being intrusive.
And have you considered at all maybe inserting Narration form the motion comics? - Although i dunno where you'd fit it since Rorschach berely ever seems to stop talking. I guess in the film he kind of IS the Narrator.
Also, I dunno if this is useful to you at all, but I found it to be an interesting read. Found it by accident...
http://www.lettercult.com/archives/387
That's actually a pretty interesting idea. I don't know if I'll be able to make it work, but damn it, it's such a good concept I'll try!
This is why I started this thread so far in advance of the actual editing - cool ideas like this that I would never have thought of. Thanks!
And that's an interesting read - I was aware that the font was Futura Extra Bold, which is convenient since I already had that font. I didn't realize how much extra work went into it - I'll try to keep the (new) opening logo as faithful to the original as possible (definitely using yellow against a black screen, which will dissolve-invert to black against a yellow screen, then the title dissolves away, leaving just the yellow, which then tracks out of the smiley-face pin).
I guess the point of it is - If you are going to make it feel like a comic book, the make it feel like a comic book! ;)
Went back to the start of the thread to make sure I'm up to speed, Don't wanna be that guy asking redundant questions...
ChainsawAsh said:So, here's my current plan (based on the Director's Cut):
the film will open with a simple black-on-yellow (or vice versa) WATCHMEN title, followed by the pan up from the smiley-face pin to the cops talking about Blake's murder, which will be intercut with relevant portions of the removed intro - Rorschach's narration might start here as in the GN as well - Cops seeing/shooting at Rorschach (added to DC) will be removed
Given that the whole intro starts and ends with pure yellow, that should be easy enough. Re: intercutting the Fight with the cops talking, Will you tint the footage? - In the comic the fight flashbacks are kind or red tinted. And yeah, Rorschach vs the two cops in Blakes appartment didn't really add anything for me, just padding.
I'm a watchmen noob, surely not going to tear to apart for edit choices...Just commenting on things I've noticed.
Over-the-top aspects of Veidt's assassination attempt toned down (perhaps - I don't have a huge problem with the scene as is)
I would love to see this tightened - It's needlessly gorey, for example a girl gets her fingers blown off in slow motion. We can still get a sense of danger without a lot of this.
No superhuman feats during the Veidt/Dan/Rorschach fight (though the bullet thing will, of course, stay) - this will be tricky.
I agree, The bullet catch is less impressive with the other stuff on display, it should remain a surprising moment.
Rorschach will die alone as in the GN
Are you still having trouble with this scene? in the end you may have to remove the blue glow as much as possible, then paint out Dan then add a new glow. Regardless it could be tedious.
Oh, and I decided to take your idea nad reverse it - purely as an experiment, the results were less than stellar but I found it interesting....
Couldn't convince you to do the title black on yellow?
