Idea & Info: Cinerama 70mm '2001' preservation. Is it possible? — Page 3

After a careful reading of the DVDBeaver comparative review of the 2001: A Space Odyssey video releases http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReview/2001.htm, I looked into their claim that "The first unrestored release from Warner (not shown here) is identical to the MGM edition in every way except packaging" (earlier in this thread). This claim is wrong. It is the MGM 1998 DVD only that has the animated, anamorphic menus. The Warner 1999 DVD (mentioned but not shown) has those same animated menus, but cropped to fullscreen:
                                      MGM 1998 DVD                                                WARNER 1999 (and 2001) DVD

This is also true of the later Warner 2001 DVD menus (now as a still frame -- not animated), regarding which they have correctly stated. Just FYI for anyone doing a project to include the best from all the releases.

SilverWook said:

I haven't watched either disc since before I got a widescreen tv, so any aspect ratio difference in the menus would not have been seen by me.

It's the player sending the image to the TV that determines how it's displayed. In your settings, you can force your player to behave as if the TV is widescreen. Of course, if your TV isn't the 16x9 ratio, you will see the full anamorphic picture, but still squeezed (whereas a widescreen TV would fit it across it's widescreen, effectively unsqueezed).

Just an update here ...

Spaced Ranger said:

From what I've read, only Criterion's 1989 "special edition" laserdisc was color corrected to director Stanley Kubrick's personal specifications, http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00997/CC1160L/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey:-Special-Edition-%281968%29
which, by that release, should be the only other permanently non-fading record of the movie.

That laserdisc mention was from captainsolo's referenced article The Big Picture: 2001 on Video by Thomas E. Brown http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/brown2.html, about the Criterion CAV 3-disc Laserdisc set (1989) mastered from a 35mm scope print (due to lack of 65/70mm transfer equipment at that time) with meticulous inspection and approval by Stanley Kubrick.

Also there, author Brown mused on something intriguing but not further explained (don't you just hate when they do that?):

"Even today the Criterion transfer is worthwhile viewing and no version -- except the as-yet-unreleased (although broadcast) digital transfer from a new print supervised by Kubrick, using new technologies -- captures the deep black of Kubrick's space scenes as well."
[emphasis mine]

I never did figure out anything more until just recently, when inadvertently stumbling across an Amazon website description of a DVD release of 2001 ... only on the UK version (as opposed to the US version) of that page! https://www.amazon.co.uk/2001-A-Space-Odyssey-DVD/dp/B000056WOM

2001: A Space Odyssey [1968] [DVD]

Reviews
From Amazon.co.uk
...
On the DVD: ... Shortly before he died Kubrick supervised the restoration of the film and the production of new 70 mm prints for theatrical release in 2001. Fortunately the DVD has been taken from this material and transferred at the 70 mm ratio of 2.21-1. There is some slight cropping noticeable, but both anamorphically enhanced image and Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack (the film was originally released with a six-channel magnetic sound) are excellent, making this transfer infinitely preferable to previous video incarnations. --Gary S Dalkin
[emphasis mine]

(Note: In typical fashion, Amazon has this same description on the different, multiple releases of 2001.)

This "Kubrick supervised" restoration is alluded to on the Warner (2001) DVD case ...

... where it states "SPECIAL FEATURES: NEW 2000 DIGITAL MASTER FROM RESTORED ELEMENTS".

That would make the Criterion 1989 laserdisc and the Warner 2001 DVD two releases of the Kubrick hands-on restoration (particularly regarding color correction) commercially available to us.

I saw those from the Consumer Electronics Show (was it 2012 or 2013?) -- stupid expensive and very cool!

It doesn't look like anyone picked up on this project. I'd love to do it (as alluded to in the previous pages) but, alas, I'm afraid time is fast running out for such excellent but mundane things ... even if I personally had the time.  :)

Asaki said:

So I saw a commercial last night that reminded me of this thread: they're making curved televisions now!

 Yeah, Samsung is hoping that will be the next gimmick that catches on> I doubt it will. It sounds cool but I bet it causes issues. Gaming might have issues such as straight lines now appearing curved, causing distortion. I'd like to see one in-store but I bet people will be hesitant to pick these curved screens up. Samsung is fixing something that isn't broken.

Somehow last year I missed the part about smileboxing movies.

I made a post about it over at hometheaterforum: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/318892-70mm-film-transfer-to-bluray-using-smilebox-simulated-curved-screen/page-2#entry3895740

I even made a (crappy) video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3GpFcn-yXg

It can be easily done in real time using this program: http://www.fly.elise-ng.net/immersivedisplaylite2

SilverWook said:

Would be interesting to see a Cinerama Blu Ray in Smilebox displayed on one of these sets.

Why would you need to? Smilebox simulates a concave screen for flat displays - if you have a curved display you should be quite content watching the regular transfer (which does of course assume that the degree of curvature on a Samsung is comparable to that of a Cinerama screen, which may not be the case).

I saw a fresh 70mm print of 2001 in the Seattle Cinerama last month. Two observations:

-Smilebox looks nothing like what one sees in the cinema, simply due to the differences between having the curve in the center of one's vision vs. in the peripheral.

-The color was, to my memory, close to the blu-ray (though it's hard to judge as the gamut of film is somewhat larger than REC709).

Notice:
Unfortunately the following website came & went, as is bound to happen with Internet obsolescence -- but thanks to caligari.us for trying!
For the rest of us, it's back to the Internet Archive.

If anyone wants to try theatre "real world" perspective, the 3rd party link (on page 2) for now-freeware trueSpace 7.61 has since died. However, the long gone Caligari trueSpace website is now resurrected at a new location by some enterprising enthusiast.

http://caligari.us/

The recovery and publication of this website is based on files saved by archive.org, and is intended to be used for educational and academic research, non-commercial purposes on mind for for the 3D graphics community, and the trueSpace users community who supported, bought and promoted the development of this great set of tools through the years.

• Architects, just like designers or illustrators, often prefer to use an artistic tool rather than a CAD tool to stay creative and be able to present their concepts to customers with clarity and elegance.
• The trueSpace award-winning direct manipulation user interface allows you to work directly in 3D space from concept to final result, maintaining the same precision a CAD program would while saving a lot of time learning more difficult CAD-style UI.
• trueSpace is also compatible with the majority of CAD data formats so you can bring your buildings into and out of traditional architectural CAD programs.
• Interiors can benefit from the ease of use and expressive power of trueSpace's modeling and surfacing tools. As you see from the images below above, the advanced lighting capabilities will let you create exactly the mood and atmosphere you need for any given space.

Not all the navigational links work, but just click around -- there's more there than just a program download. Remember, it's a phantom of a 2008 defunct website. Ignore things like $$ and the shopping cart.  :)

ScruffyNerfHerder said:

I wonder if someone could use Oculus Rift (a virtual reality headset for those who don't know) to virtually sit in a Cinerama movie theater?

 I recently came across the Oculus Rift Virtual Reality website. Looks like the real-deal!
http://www.oculusvr.com/

YouTube is full of videos using VR Cinema, for the virtual reality prespective, and Oculus Rift, for the stereoscopic "3D" view. (Some even show dual images for you to try a no-hardware, "cross-eyed" stereo viewing.)

Here is an introduction (hard to see the theatre in this one)

"Virtual Reality Movie Theater For The Oculus Rift VR Cinema 3D"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl_xOyg8ziM

and here's an awesome first-person view (with the theatre showing it's full glory)

"Oculus Rift VR Cinema 3D Demo"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djBur6p49NE

Just a quick update here:
I fixed a few broken links & pictures on pages 2 & 3.
For those who would like to try the 3D modeling program for Cinerama & 3D environment effects, trueSpace is still available in released-as-freeware from other legitimate, software download sites. I linked to the well known Major Geeks but there are lots more carrying the software's end-of-life versions.

Finally I was able to get a screenshot of the legendary Criterion CAV 3-disc Laserdisc set (1989) ..

.. that was reported by LaserDisc Database as "This transfer was supervised and corrected by Stanley Kubrick himself" (verifiable on eBay when it's contents statement-sheet is shown close-up for reading). Note that this Criterion Collection release was made when MGM controlled the rights to 2001.

A few years later, MGM released the CAV 3-disc 25th Anniversary Laserdisc set (1993). I'm still looking to get a screenshot of that one, but it was described as being from the original 65mm film, via film-to-tape, with shot-by-shot color correction (to "fix" problems like too dim to be seen stars, and brightness variations) but not in complete accord with Kubrick's color scheme.

[missing 1993 LD screenshot]

More years later, MGM released a DVD in 1998 that I expect was from that same transfer & correction of the 25th Anniversary LD. That laserdisc should then look like this DVD:

It's only close to the Kubrick-supervised release, but much closer  than the later Warner releases when they obtained the movie rights.  (See DVDBeaver's 2001 comparative review for lots of these screenshots.) The latest hi-def releases do better by cutting back on the blue-light bath (next screenshot), but are still far from the one on which Kubrick actually worked.

I earlier found a statement on Amazon-UK, quoting a (professional) reviewer, that Kubrick worked on a new transfer for the Warner DVD year-2001 release of 2001: A Space Odyssey ..

I think this color palette is cause for complete dismissal of that assertion. Further, an interview of technical assistant Leon Vitali, someone who actually worked on the 2001 release of the Stanley Kubrick Collection DVDs, states that Kubrick's involvement was only at the very early planning stage -- just before his untimely death.
Kubrick Questions Finally Answered
http://www.dvdtalk.com/leonvitaliinterview.html

Short of actual, nonfaded 1960's 70mm film, a confident conclusion is that the Criterion Collection laserdisc release is the only (consumer) release with the true look of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

I know. Analyzing all this third party info is worthy of Sherlock (the newest incarnation -- thank you, BBC, for my new hero!). But all this thread's outside links (and informed, Internet Kubrick-discussions in general) demonstrate Kubrick's meticulous dedication to his (original & finished) visions, and pragmatism only when they were outside of his control (studios, theaters). And this last, authoritative Kubrick Questions Finally Answered (previously linked) definitively settles the "aspect ratio" question ... as well as surrounding issues, regarding Kubrick himself.

So, now, a 2001 preservation needs the director's original color. It also needs the highest resolution presentable on our useful formats (DVD, HD). I excitedly made this H-S-L  test, combining the Hue and Saturation of the Criterion laserdisc image and the Lightness of the 2001-released DVD image (from the DVDBeaver 2001 comparative review, previously linked), just to see what it might look like. (That DVD-version image was used before discovering Kubrick's involvement with it was a false or exaggerated report.) It was an easy matter to use the paint program functions of Split HSL get the break-downs and Combine HSL to put together the desired parts, to accomplish this task:

Oooo, pretty! But more important ... finally accurate.

Well ... mostly accurate.  :)

As laserdisc captures are analog, a good capture should maximize the spectrum or otherwise match the on-disc colorbars (if any). This clearly was not done for this cap. I had to "normalize" (stretch) the spectrum to it's full contrast range. It also looked like the colors were weak and needed strengthening. All that would be just a post-fix for a poor capture.

So the original screenshot ..

.. is a little soft due to it's compressed range. So the range is expanded using a paint program's Histogram function. Going by numbers guarantees that there will be no crush or blowout of the spectrum. The original spectrum's graph is shown in grey and the resultant correction is overlaid in red. It brings back full contract to the image:

I knew from seeing on-set color photos of this very set (sample below) that it must also need stronger color. In the Hue/Saturation/Lightness function, the Master saturation is increased. Even then, the reddish colors needed more. Fortunately, parts of the color spectrum can be boosted without affecting other parts -- RED is further boosted:

Keeping in mind that this is guesstimate-by-eye (the paint program lacks precision feedback), it's looking much better -- as the capture itself should've looked. Then is time for looking into what is lost in laserdisc translation (?) and whether further correction based on surviving sources is warranted.

Thus far, this fix is probably very close to what Kubrick approved for use in the Criterion Collection laserdisc. It's palette is certainly more in line with the on-set (over-exposed) photo than any "blue-bathed" DVD or HD release:

Thanks for that confirmation, captainsolo! As StarThoughts indicated, there's so much revisionism going on that it throws everything into question.

For example, that Kubrick-on-the-set photo shows a brighter and slightly pinkish-cream color to the shot. As an experiment, I tried a color-correction-match in that direction (strictly apart from the laserdisc palette). It's appealing to wonder about this:

Has anyone bought that exhaustive (just try carrying it) & budget-killer 2001 encyclopedic reference work? (Maybe that would help.)
A closer look at Taschen's deluxe book, The Making Of 2001: A Space Odyssey
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/kubrick/30844/a-closer-look-at-taschens-deluxe-book-the-making-of-2001-a-space-odyssey

Fortunately, it doesn't look like "pinkish-cream" is in 2001's future.  :)  For if I had a small fortune needed to buy the now sold-out Taschen's The Making Of 2001: A Space Odyssey, then I'd grab this page (from a $1,000+ book of over 1,000 pages, that's only $1 a page -- a bargain of Jupiter proportions!) ..

.. as our crystal-clear 2001 rosetta stone! Ooooo ... the revelation!  :O

So then, taking the Stanley Kubrick approved Criterion laserdisc screenshot and simply bumping up the brightness & saturation (as might be done for the actual capture), we get what must finally be the closest yet to Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey:

  non-compensated capture

  post-cap compensation

Nice detective work Spaced Ranger. Does anyone have a capture of the Kubrick approved transfer LD? I'd like to test a regrade of the BR.