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I hate the Jedi

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SW77 was all about adventure and excitement - about taking risks and accepting outlandish ideas such as The Force. With ESB we get the exact opposite philosophy as expounded by Yoda. The natural result is the unrelatable and unlikable Jedi Order from the PT. So we have two different visions about what Star Wars is all about; that of a young George Lucas and Kershner’s take as expound in ESB.

Thoughts and/or objections?

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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I’d argue that I don’t mind the overall concept of the Jedi. They are uniquely separate from any typical soldier. The trials and tribulations involved would make most people pause and wonder why anyone would carry such title. It heightens an image in the public’s mind of how kooky and insane these Force sensitive people are. Admired by some even. But more importantly, an easy target for a tyrannical reigme to throw under the bus.
However, I do agree to some degree that the no relationship mantra is a bit absurd. The Prequel Trilogy would had done right to make it clear that instead, no romantic relationships until you’re well into your Jedi career. Still kooky, but just enough kookiness.

The Rise of Failures

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Isn’t the whole point of the PT that the Jedi spend too much time worrying about nonsense and therefore took their eye off what was really important?

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That was apparently supposed to be the point but it wasn’t communicated well at all.

a trolling bantha

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GlastoEls said:

Isn’t the whole point of the PT that the Jedi spend too much time worrying about nonsense and therefore took their eye off what was really important?

Not according to the PT-era Lucas IIRC. Frankly, I can’t imagine his younger self ever envisioning the Jedi like they are portrayed in the PT. And what is all this talk about anger and fear leading to the darkside that Yoda spouts off about? Anger and fear are often catalysts to great change for the better. Do you think that slavery didn’t anger the people who abolished it? Do you think fear of climate change is a bad thing? Yoda is a brilliantly portrayed character in ESB but I think his morals are questionable. And he gives Luke shit about his personality and hopes and dreams. Luke did destroy the Death Star right? You know, the thing that would have spelled “certain doom” to the Rebels. What did Yoda do other than hide out? Maybe if you lift X-Wings of the water you could have helped the Rebels in their struggle a little sooner. What a condescending little green prick!

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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OutboundFlight said:

I actually agree. I would have liked to see Luke contradict Yoda and the Old Order more directly in ROTJ, proving that emotions can be used for good.

Yeah. Or maybe one day there will be a Sequel Trilogy that shows how Luke learned from the mistakes of the Old Order and created…wait, what? Sold it to Disney?! Why would he do that? Never mind then.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I would’ve liked to see Luke become a gray Jedi. Too bad Lucas doesn’t believe in gray.

Duracell, my man, the Jedi are already Gray; and that is the problem! Gray as in “gray area” refers to beliefs that are moraly uncertain or questionable. Jedi are not supposed to be gray! They are on the right path in a galaxy that is gray or tilting to evil. The point of Han Solo’s character arc in SW77 is that he goes from gray to light/white, right? The extermination of the Jedi can only be a tragedy if they are the good guys, not the “gray” guys! Tell me you weren’t a little happy when they all got gunned down at the end of ROTS.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I would’ve liked to see Luke become a gray Jedi. Too bad Lucas doesn’t believe in gray.

Duracell, my man, the Jedi are already Gray; and that is the problem! Gray as in “gray area” refers to beliefs that are moraly uncertain or questionable. Jedi are not supposed to be gray! They are on the right path in a galaxy that is gray or tilting to evil. The point of Han Solo’s character arc in SW77 is that he goes from gray to light/white, right? The extermination of the Jedi can only be a tragedy if they are the good guys, not the “gray” guys!

Ah, but the lovely thing about gray is that it comes in many shades.

When I think of a gray Jedi, I think of a Jedi who taps into emotions/utilizes powers commonly with the dark side whilst still remaining a hero with a strong sense of right & wrong — a very “light gray” Jedi, you could say. The PT Jedi in general are “medium gray”, with Windu “dark gray”. I’m not a fan of medium/dark gray Jedi, either, at least not as the rule.

Tell me you weren’t a little happy when they all got gunned down at the end of ROTS.

More than anything, I felt annoyance tinged with apathy. The EU painted a very engrossing portrait of the Great Jedi Purge, and ROTS utterly failed to live up to it.

Divergent Universes
Dreams of a Randy Git-Fiend

Make Off Topic great again.

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DuracellEnergizer said:
The EU painted a very engrossing portrait of the Great Jedi Purge, and ROTS utterly failed to live up to it.

Yes. Maybe the greatest failure of the PT in the end, after the stupidity of Anakin’s fall of course.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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DuracellEnergizer said:

When I think of a gray Jedi, I think of a Jedi who taps into emotions/utilizes powers commonly with the dark side whilst still remaining a hero with a strong sense of right & wrong — a very “light gray” Jedi, you could say. The PT Jedi in general are “medium gray”, with Windu “dark gray”. I’m not a fan of medium/dark gray Jedi, either, at least not as the rule.

In other words, the end justifies the means? Not too Star Warsy in my opinion Duracell, but you do have some support from the EU. Did not Zahn consider “mind tricks” to be a Darkside power?

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

When I think of a gray Jedi, I think of a Jedi who taps into emotions/utilizes powers commonly with the dark side whilst still remaining a hero with a strong sense of right & wrong — a very “light gray” Jedi, you could say. The PT Jedi in general are “medium gray”, with Windu “dark gray”. I’m not a fan of medium/dark gray Jedi, either, at least not as the rule.

In other words, the end justifies the means?

I dunno if I’d go that far. I definitely think Luke should’ve skewered Palps, though.

Not too Star Warsy in my opinion Duracell,

LOL. I am to Star Wars what Marcion of Sinope was to traditional Christianity.

Divergent Universes
Dreams of a Randy Git-Fiend

Make Off Topic great again.

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All Star Wars movies after the first one are rather un-American. Is that how you spell it?

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Yoda should have taught Luke the moral foundations of the Jedi, but been weak when it came to using The Force in combat.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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I never liked the idea of a gray Jedi, or at least the kind of gray Jedi that’s an anti-hero who uses all the powers because he’s too cool to follow the rules. But the idea of a “gray” Jedi who does have a strong sense of right and wrong, that’s an attractive idea. The PT sets up a dogma that’s doomed to fail - anger, hate, and fear are all natural human emotions and suppressing them can be dangerous and unhealthy. You can see how this is (poorly communicated) subtext in the PT, in regards to how Anakin’s story unfolds.

I always thought that a potential sequel trilogy would confront these ideas that were floated in the prequels but never fully considered. So far, the two films (well, really TLJ) have actually picked up the thread on this to some extent - the fallibility of the Jedi, the danger/complacency of Jedi pride, the monopoly the Jedi strive to have on the Force. The pieces are in place to come to some sort of resolution for it all in TROS, if they are so inclined. Since ROTJ dropped the ball on Luke’s perspective in regards to Ben and Yoda’s actions, it became fair game to simply have Luke revive the Jedi order as it was. But now Rey is building an explicitly new order. We’ve seen Rey use what could potentially be considered anger in her fights without any condemnation or repercussions. So that could either be integrated into the storyline, or simply ignored as a quirk of choreography/acting. But on the flip, what they’re doing with Kylo’s eternally conflicted persona (never fully light or dark), and his being essentially the other side of Rey’s coin, it would ultimately be kind of surprising if they didn’t explore this idea to some extent.

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theprequelsrule said:

SW77 was all about adventure and excitement - about taking risks and accepting outlandish ideas such as The Force. With ESB we get the exact opposite philosophy as expounded by Yoda.

I wouldn’t say they’re opposite philosophies at all, just different layers.

I wouldn’t necessarily say SW is all about adventure and excitement. It’s about breaking out of the comfort of the status quo, about believing in yourself and in causes greater than yourself. It’s a coming of age story, about leaving the safety of home. Taking risks? Sure.

But is TESB anti-risk? It’s anti-recklessness sure, but I’d argue learning to put recklessness in check is a necessary component of risk-taking. The spirit of the first film is still there - “do or do not.” Yoda says a Jedi craves not adventure and excitement, which just means he does not seek it out for the sake of it. Adventure and excitement will come, sure, but patience is important, as is doing the right thing, which is what a Jedi should be craving most of all. TESB is a coming of age story as well, but it’s more about learning responsibility once you’re on your own and making your own choices.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

When I think of a gray Jedi, I think of a Jedi who taps into emotions/utilizes powers commonly with the dark side whilst still remaining a hero with a strong sense of right & wrong

Meant to type “commonly associated with the dark side”. I didn’t mean to imply I would’ve preferred Luke as someone who routinely taps into the dark side.

Divergent Universes
Dreams of a Randy Git-Fiend

Make Off Topic great again.

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DominicCobb said:

The PT sets up a dogma that’s doomed to fail - anger, hate, and fear are all natural human emotions and suppressing them can be dangerous and unhealthy.

Incorrect; the dogma is set up by ESB and followed through in the Prequels!

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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DominicCobb said:

I never liked the idea of a gray Jedi, or at least the kind of gray Jedi that’s an anti-hero who uses all the powers because he’s too cool to follow the rules. But the idea of a “gray” Jedi who does have a strong sense of right and wrong, that’s an attractive idea. The PT sets up a dogma that’s doomed to fail - anger, hate, and fear are all natural human emotions and suppressing them can be dangerous and unhealthy. You can see how this is (poorly communicated) subtext in the PT, in regards to how Anakin’s story unfolds.

I always thought that a potential sequel trilogy would confront these ideas that were floated in the prequels but never fully considered. So far, the two films (well, really TLJ) have actually picked up the thread on this to some extent - the fallibility of the Jedi, the danger/complacency of Jedi pride, the monopoly the Jedi strive to have on the Force. The pieces are in place to come to some sort of resolution for it all in TROS, if they are so inclined. Since ROTJ dropped the ball on Luke’s perspective in regards to Ben and Yoda’s actions, it became fair game to simply have Luke revive the Jedi order as it was. But now Rey is building an explicitly new order. We’ve seen Rey use what could potentially be considered anger in her fights without any condemnation or repercussions. So that could either be integrated into the storyline, or simply ignored as a quirk of choreography/acting. But on the flip, what they’re doing with Kylo’s eternally conflicted persona (never fully light or dark), and his being essentially the other side of Rey’s coin, it would ultimately be kind of surprising if they didn’t explore this idea to some extent.

When I hear “Gray Jedi” I think of someone like Cassian Andor (if he had the force). They’re doing the right thing, but aren’t afraid to flirt with evil in doing so. From that angle I can’t see Rey going towards darkness.

I don’t think Gray Jedi is the solution. You can’t say the side that destroyed planets, purged races, and slaughtered children are half the good guys now, and the people doing everything to stop them were partially in the wrong. Instead I think it’s about reevaluating the light side’s rules. Yoda says Jedi cannot have emotions, but in ROTJ, Luke proves him wrong by using Vader’s fatherly love to turn him over. Therefore, the Jedi should have positive emotions.

ANH and TESB’s morals on becoming a Jedi feel like learning anything. For example the piano. When you start you hear the piano playing a really good song, and you excitedly start learning the keys. But then when you try to play all the good songs you aren’t good, and you become frustrated. Now the teacher must stress the importance of patience and hard work.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Yes it’s a matter of perspective and definition. There’s a lot of ways gray Jedi would be poorly done, like the one you mention. Which is why my instinct is to bristle at the term.

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The term Gray Jedi has it’s origins in the KOTOR character Jolee Bindo. Maybe Qui-Gon Jinn. But what made both of them to be considered “Gray” was simply questioning Jedi orthodox thought rather than embracing powers or ideas of the darkside. The fact that fandom decided that disagreeing with authority qualifies you as “gray” says a lot about Star Wars fandom. Jolee’s best quote:

“Love doesn’t lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled, but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love, that’s what they should teach you to beware, but love itself will save, not condemn you.”

Take that Yoda!

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord