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I cannot disobey my master

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"You do not understand, I cannot disobey my master!"

I guess I don't understand.  Why can't Vader disobey his master?  He seemingly gets away with it about half an hour later...

What do you think or what have been your interpretations of this line.  Do the prequels change it at all for you?

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Would the statement change its meaning if it was referring to the Dark Side instead of Palpatine?

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It just always reminds me that I never bought that Vader's motivation in the OT was to use Luke to betray Palpatine.  Like Luke claims in one of the Zahn novels, I think Vader was just lying to Luke when he beckoned him to overthrow the Emperor in ESB.  As we see in ROTJ, Vader seems totally incapable of defying Palpatine, even when Luke offers to do nearly exactly what Vader wanted him to do in the previous movie:  run off together and defy the Emperor.  So either that's more Lucas BS or those intentions just weren't conveyed very well at all.  I like to believe it's more retconning because I honestly can't take ROTJ seriously if I'm laboring under the delusion that Vader's motivation is to defy the Emperor.  Nothing in the movie supports this... well, you know, other than when he does, but saving his son's life is the motivation for it, not overthrowing him for its own sake.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Perhaps Vader just thought he couldn't defy Palpatine at that moment.  But when he sees his son writhing in agony under the power of the Emperor and hearing Luke remind him of his internal conflict, Vader realized he could defy the wishes of his master. 

You don't get it, boy.  This isn't a mudhole.  It's an operating table, and I'm the surgeon.

Vader vs. Luke

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xhonzi said:

"You do not understand, I cannot disobey my master!"

 

Where's that quote from?

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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Return of the Jedi.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Well, the quote is actually, "I must obey my master!" but the message is pretty much the same.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Sorry, I tried to google the quote but that was as close as I could come.

I've never fully understood the leash that Vader is on.  Without ever getting into it, the OT makes it seem that there is some kind of magical or legal binding on Vader to keep him from betraying Palpatine.  This line in particular almost makes it sound like an explanation would be forthcoming at some point in time...  I've heard they were working on a Prequel trilogy... I'm sure a totally satisfactory explanation will be given therein.  :)

Palpatine implies in this scene that if Luke used the Dark Side to destroy Vader, that Luke's will would be magically sapped and that he would be his new apprentice.  In my opinion, Luke does tap into the Dark Side to defeat Vader, but stops short of killing him.  It doesn't seem to affect Luke in any immediate kind of way. 

It just makes me wonder what Lucas/Kasdan meant by that line.  I'm fine with the assumption that they were, at this point in time, just putting in pretty words without a lot of meaning... but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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I believe the plan with Luke was to give him a taste of the dark side.  If he used it to strike down Vader, he would be drawn to it, like a drug, and he would keep using it, eventually falling completely. 

And I remember always believing that Vader's allegiance was absolute.  He was too far gone down the dark path to change now ("It is too late for me, son.  The Emperor will show you the true nature of the force," even though that line has a bit of dichotomy, admitting he went down the wrong path but then immediately claiming that his way was the true way.), and that the Emperor would lash out against betrayal.  Which is also kinda weird considering that Palpatine makes no bones about the fact that he's trying to replace Vader, so you would think that Vader would choose a death with dignity rather than purposefully being a pawn.  Eh, the whole thing is weird if you ask me and yet another oddity about ROTJ.

But that's compounded by the PT and Lucas's current assertions.  It always seemed there was some sort of arc in the OT.  Once Luke tugged at the old heartstrings, Vader began to question his lifestyle and allegiances and became unsure of whether or not he wanted to be killed to make room for Luke.  But the PT pretty much makes it that Vader was never loyal to Palpatine from the moment he joined the dark side.  After all, he was just doing it for love, and Vader even says, "We can overthrow him," and, just like in ESB, I can respect that if it's just Vader's MO to BS about overthrowing the Emperor in order to bring others to their side.  In fact, it's a rather cool, sadistic way to do so.  "I hate the Emperor!"  "Well, so do I.  In fact, if you join me, we can overthrow him!"  Five years later.  "Wow, I love the Emperor."  "So do I."  There's a clear manipulation there, where Vader uses people's hatred of the Emperor to bring them to the Emperor's side, similar to the stories where Jedi attempt to control the dark side for good but end up being consumed by it.  But Lucas screws that up too by saying that Vader was literally always trying to overthrow the Emperor, and this is his first time to attempt it.  I just never bought that Vader was really trying to overthrow or even distance himself from his master.  Like I said in my earlier post, he even turned down chances to do so.  And if Vader was discontent with his status, why did he continue to serve for a generation after his sole motivation disappeared.  Apparently The Force Unleashed's plot has to do with another of Vader's wacky attempts to dethrone the Emperor, but I've never played it, nor do I intend to, so who cares?

And considering how many apprentices Palpatine goes through in the PT, it does seem bizarre that Vader would stick around as long as he does, especially if Sith are as backstabbing as advertised.  Granted, getting Vader as his apprentice was supposedly his main motivation in this ridiculously convoluted plan.  And I'm not sure if it's considered canon or not that either Palpatine or Plagueis had any role in Anakin's conception, but if that is the case, why not just snatch Anakin up before Qui-Gonn appears, train him as a Sith from the time he's a child, and there you go!  But now I'm just getting off topic.

But after Palpatine goes through all that trouble to get Anakin to become Vader, Vader immediately gets all screwed up and encased in his suit, which, according to Lucas logic, depowers him considerably (he's lost so many midichlorians after all!), which I think was just some bullshit retcon to explain the "lame" lightsaber fight in Star Wars, which, in itself is contradicted by Dooku and Grievous (good job, George).  Suddenly "The Emperor's prize (is) damaged!"  Palpatine must have felt pretty stupid to have gone through decades' worth of trouble just to get a half-man cybertron.  Knowing his temper, it would have made more sense if he'd just discarded Vader and made another new apprentice rather than keeping this weakling around for twenty years.  Again, this is going by Lucas logic.  Vader always seemed plenty badass to me.

In other words, the whole "Must obey my master," shtick only really works if Vader is not actively trying to overthrow the Emperor.  After all, that would mean he was seriously trying to recruit Luke in ESB only to turn down Luke accepting that offer in ROTJ.  So in conclusion... don't watch the prequels.  They give you a headache if you think about them too much.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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The return of the jedi novelization does a better job of stating why vader does not disobey his master.

I think it was because the time was not right.  That he believed under the emperor and his teaching Luke would flourish into a sith apprentice though not stated at the time.  And then when Luke was mentally prepared he would help vader kill the emperor and vader would be the new emporor and luke his chief right hand man and supreme commander of the elite imperial forces.  I don't think as written in 1983 Vader expected his master to betray him and have luke Kill him, he never fathomed the emperor knew of his treachery.

When now in the EU the very nature of the sith is treachery, and there are under the cult of bane only two Sith Lords at any given time.

I mean Dooku did not see it coming either when Sidious ordered Anakin to murder Dooku.Tyrannus in cold blood.   He never intended Maul to be a permanent Apprentice as far as i'm aware.  Too Much of an animal and beast who could never really rise to the greatness the true masters of the sith could achieve.  He was more of a slave to his passions than in control of them.  He was only a lackey for palpatine sidious when sidious wanted an equel or someone who could one day succeed him.

Who better than the jedis chosen, the one to bring balance to the force.  Corrupt him and the Jedis hope is extinguished.  The only thing the emperor and Vader never foresaw where padmes and anakin's twins.  The last threat to palpatines power.  Luke the only one able to re-ignite the jedi inside darth vader from a small spark.

Which is kind of laughable considering that palpatine knew Anakin was banging Padme every night, why would'nt there be children,lol.

And nobody else knew or suspected.  Obi Wan was the only one who knew and kept it a secret, being like a father to Anakin since he was a small boy forgiving him his faults.

It is entirely ironic that out of Padme and Anakin's sin of forbidden love that the galaxies hope was born, proving the jedi's view of attachment as being wrong.  Indeed it was Lukes attachment to Anakin that saved him when he was a sith lord named darth vader, attachment to the ideal that he was a good man inside. Or had the potential of goodness anyway.

In the novelization of revenge of the sith the new prophecy was that love would destroy the sith not directly said but that is what i got out of it, Vader finally in his last moments excepts and loves his son and with his last energy kills the emporor at the expense of his own life doing away with the sith.  The prophecy was then achieved but not as the jedi thought it would be.

I always wondered did the good in luke and leia come from Padme? Or the love of the foster parents.   I mean their is little good shown in Anakin in the prequels as a confused and horny emo teenager, so i guess Its the foster parents,lol.

I mean good and evil as an hereditary thing rather than a moral choice.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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skyjedi2005 said:

...

I always wondered did the good in luke and leia come from Padme? Or the love of the foster parents.   I mean their is little good shown in Anakin in the prequels as a confused and horny emo teenager, so i guess Its the foster parents,lol.

I mean good and evil as an hereditary thing rather than a moral choice.

 

That only works through the prequel lens of revisionist history.  I think I would prefer to say that Luke and Leia got their good qualities from Anakin and their mother even though the execution of the characters was botched.

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I don't know.  I'm more of a believer of nurture as opposed to nature.  I can deign myself to believe that aspects of the force can be genetically passed down, but I have a hard time accepting that good disposition and attitude characteristics are somehow inherited from the parents they never met.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Gaffer Tape said: Apparently The Force Unleashed's plot has to do with another of Vader's wacky attempts to dethrone the Emperor, but I've never played it, nor do I intend to, so who cares?

 

Actually that one is subverted in the game, quite refreshingly. The main character is like Maul, he's trained as a child to an adult as an apprentice for Vader. Vader tells him he's to make contact with the newly begun rebellion, and help him overthrow the Emperor, but when it comes down to the deed, Vader attacks him (the main character) instead, and dumps him in space. Turns out the whole thing was a plan by both Vader and the Emperor to draw out the rebel leaders and get rid of them, using the main character as perfect bait.

 

Or at least that's the first two acts of the story, I don't know what happens in the third (pretty sure you come back to rescue the rebels and the like)

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Really?  I thought it had multiple endings that basically end up being the same thing.  Like, either Vader betrays Starkiller and remains loyal to the Emperor, or he goes through with the plan, the Emperor kills Vader, and takes on Starkiller as his new right-hand, or something like that.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Ithilgore said:

Actually that one is subverted in the game, quite refreshingly.

... Vader attacks him instead, and dumps him in space. Turns out the whole thing was a plan by both Vader and the Emperor to draw out the rebel leaders and get rid of them, using the main character as perfect bait.

....

Or at least that's the first two acts of the story, I don't know what happens in the third (pretty sure you come back to rescue the rebels and the like)

 

Quite refreshingly, hehehe. I suppose a lot of people don't really stop to think about how dumb that whole thing is. Vader finds this little wunderkind who, as a small child already shows phenomenal abilities in the force. Vader takes it upon himself to raise this small child into adulthood, teaching him to use the dark side of the force from a very young age, and using him as an agent for completing delicate tasks. Sounds like a pretty valuable asset. Finding a powerful little child and training and rasing him into adulthood doesn't sound like the easiest thing in the world to do, but I am sure it is an effort well spent considering all the great things you could use him for, like... like... like betraying him so he becomes a good guy, joins the Rebel Alliance and ultimately leads you to them and solves all your problems.

Seriously Darth, since the late nineties you have been portrayed as having some of the worst logic in film/video game history. "Oh no, my wife is going to die, so I am going to join an evil Sith Lord who I know has been lying to me for all these years and pledge my undying loyalty to him. Once I have joined him, I will try to get my wife to join me, but if she doesn't I'll just choke her to death. It'll make for a very amusing tradgedy at any rate."


"Oh no, there seems to be a group of rebels rebelling against my masters empire. I know! Rather using our vast and virtually unlimited military might to snuff them out where ever they rise, I can fix this by taking that little kid I found the other day, taking ten to fifteen years training him to be the best Sith warrior possible, then I'll betray him! And just hope luck will have it that there will still be good in him even though I have trained him to be an evil bastard since early childhood, and he will want to join the rebels. With a little more luck, they'll actually trust him and welcome him, and maybe even... follow him into a trap! Mhaa ha ha ha HA!! My plan is absolutely perfect! It'll make for nifty hack and slash buttom masher of an action game at any rate." 

 

But yeah, what got us on this topic is that in the last level of the game you are given the choice of killing Vader of letting him live, if you let him live you get the good (and canonical ending). If you kill the sorry sap, you get to kill your friends too and become the Emperor's new right hand man, complete with a nifty Vaderesque costume!

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

Seriously Darth, since the late nineties you have been portrayed as having some of the worst logic in film/video game history. "Oh no, my wife is going to die, so I am going to join an evil Sith Lord who I know has been lying to me for all these years and pledge my undying loyalty to him. Once I have joined him, I will try to get my wife to join me, but if she doesn't I'll just choke her to death. It'll make for a very amusing tradgedy at any rate."

 

 not to mention nute gunray was trying to kill amidala AND was one of sidous/palpys underlings

John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/

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Sidious starting the rebelllion is the stupidest thing since he started the seperatist movement and republic army of clones being both sidious and palpatine at the same time.

Lucas level storytelling is now a joke when it was once considered mythic and worthy of the highest praise.

After seeing the prequels and crystal skull it is obvious he can no longer tell a compelling story, the plots are so laughable that even children lose the sense of willing suspension of disbelief.  It has come down to wow what a neat effects sequence by ilm, and thats it.  A sad way for star wars and indiana jones once greatness to die.

I am sort of grudgingly enjoying bits and pieces of the clone wars animated.  The best parts don't come from Lucas.  I wish for star wars and indiana jones  without any Lucas involvement, never will happen.

Lets start  crossing our fingers the live action show is not a load of horseshit like the prequels were.

I would never see Indiana Jones V if it ever gets made, even if there is a possibilty it could be good like going from temple of doom to last crusade.  Lucas and Spielberg are no longer my favorite directors, only favorites of yesteryear when they could make a good movie.

There already is coming out an alternate history of the original trilogy of sorts later this year, a downloadable add on to force unleashed called the sith edition following the alternate ending with starkiller as the apprentice.  He has to hunt down kenobi and skywalker and kill them supposedly.

The trailer had the same bad voice over guy for palpatine as force unleashed.  Billionaire Lucas could not afford mcdiarmid for the game, or james earl jones for vader.  They used Chad vader, and he suprisingly did a good job.  As good as would be expected if it was a fanfilm and not an official lucas product.  Though the Soundtrack was pretty good.

Despite the bad part of the plot, the game felt more ot'ish than the entire prequels did.  The rest of the plot was fairly decent in honest opinion, if a bit of a rehash and cliche.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Heh heh heh.  Chad Vader?  Jesus. 

You don't get it, boy.  This isn't a mudhole.  It's an operating table, and I'm the surgeon.

Vader vs. Luke

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skyjedi2005 said:

The trailer had the same bad voice over guy for palpatine as force unleashed.  Billionaire Lucas could not afford mcdiarmid for the game, or james earl jones for vader.  They used Chad vader, and he suprisingly did a good job.  As good as would be expected if it was a fanfilm and not an official lucas product.  Though the Soundtrack was pretty good.

 

I doubt Lucas had any input, or concern, over the voice actor casting. I imagine he gave the team a budget, and rich actors like McDiarmid and Jones didn't feel like flying in to spend a day or two in the booth for something as seemingly unimportant as a video game.

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Lucas probably didn't have that much to do with the story of Farts Unleashed. I know he had some input, OKed some things, suggested somethings, but I think the main story came from other people.

The big question is how much Farts Unleashed is considered canon and by who. There was talk about it being tied in with Star Wars canon in some of the press for it, but most Star Wars video/computer games are part of the Lucasfilm/Holocron sort of Star wars canon. They take continuity into consideration and are taken into consideration in EU continuity.

Then there's the Lucas view of canon. I don't know if Lucas really has any formal idea of canon, just his own collection of stuff he's worked on and considers as existing in his universe, whereas he sees the EU as existing as a separate universe (I'm not sure how literally), though he takes bits from it to include in his universe at times (like Aayla Secura and Quinlan Vos).

Now, maybe all this talk of canon means Farts Unleashed is part of Lucas's canon not just Lucasfilm's, but as I've said, he doesn't seem to have a formal idea of canon, so I don't know. I read that the Art Of book for Farts Unleashed was supposed to have an interview in which Lucas talks about its relation to canon, but I couldn't find it in the book. I'd have to say, I'd be surprised to even see Lucas use the word "canon", because, from looking at lots of quotes from him relevant to canon, I'd say that's not his style. I'd be surprised if there was any such interview. If anybody knows about any such interview or has a link to it, I'd appreciate the info.  

There's rumors that the main character from Farts will appear in the live action show (or at least that the actor will). If so, this could be an indication that Lucas is indeed taking Farts seriously as part of HIS Star Wars universe (his canon). Unless he just uses the character without really tying Farts Unleashed into the show, like how he used jedis Aayla Secura and Quinlan Vos in ROTS without really tying in with the comics they came from. (And it's speculated he's using Quinlan again in the live action show.)

All this talk of canon is about whether or not Farts is being taken seriously on a level the EU generally isn't. That's significant for how we should view it. Personally, I think it'd be pretty far out to include a video game in the central star wars "canon" that previously has included only films (though now it includes the tv shows as well).

Oh, possibly significant bit -when discussing what's his canon (though he didn't use that word) in 2008, the year Farts was released, he mentioned only the tv shows and the movies, no mention of Farts. Either he forgot it, he was simplifying, or he doesn't take it seriously after all.

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I see what you did there...  Farts... very clever.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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 (Edited)

That's the main answer. Sidious also had Force Lightning, and other techniques at his disposal that Vader stood no chance against. It was all a matter of Vader turning Luke to the dark side, helping him grow more powerful, and then waiting for the right moment to strike against Sidious with Luke as his ultimate tool.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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It is more like i " I cannot disobey the script"lol.

Just like all sorts of shitty bad plots and unbelievable things happen in the prequels because it is in the script.

The jedi script was a noticeable drop in quality from empire strikes back, the script chores Kasden did on jedi were more out of thanks to lucas and loyalty. But he had very little input into the story.

His ideas were ignored Like killing Han Solo, which i agree which Lucas being against.  But i do agree with Kasden's idea that a second death star wars just dumb and not  original.

Then the quality drops many fathoms further on the phantom menace script, once you get attack of the clones and revenge of the sith the script is so crappy as if to say "a script we don't need a script we got cgi"

At least with the star wars holiday special, howard the duck and the clone wars movie the crappy script is not his fault.  Didn't full of Baloney Filoni write the clone wars script?

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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xhonzi said:

I see what you did there...  Farts... very clever.

 

Clever isn't the point. The point is mocking something that badly needs to be mocked.