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I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much. — Page 4

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Star Wars was a mistake. Just, the whole franchise was a mistake. I side more with TestingOuttheTest, but I stand by regretting the existence of this godawful franchise.

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Artan42 said:

At no point in the PT or TCW is any indication given that Palps alone is responsible for the fall of the Republic. The Republic falls due to it being crippled by corruption and decay, exactly the reason real life governments fall, this has been well explained by Lucas along with all the other tropes based on real life in the OT and PT.

Really? That is the entirety of the PT. Palpatine is the puppet master behind everything that happens. He causes the blockade of Naboo so he can become chancellor. He causes the clone war so he can destabilize the republic and destroy the Jedi. He has his hook in Anakin from TPM on. Palpatine single handedly does all this through his manipulations. There is debate as to who ordered the clone army, but Palpatine took it over, had Jango Fett selected as the source, implanted order 66. So for 3 years there were over a million ticking timebombs ready to destroy the Jedi when the order was given.

And where they went with TROS brought that puppeteering back, placing Palpatine behind Snoke. And Palpatine did die, but has been brought back by his Sith acolytes. In ROTJ they decapitate the Empire, sending it into confusion. But Palpatine had planned for that and his loyalists brought him back and the confrontation with Rey was supposed to be his final rebirth, but he was thwarted at last. In TROS the First Order and the other remnants of the Empire are not beheaded, they are annihilated. Palpatine is gone and there is no one to bring him back. Watch ROTJ. For Luke it all becomes about saving his father. For Anakin, as he comes back, it is about saving his son. Palpatine dies and the Empire crumbles. All around success. The force is in balance until the Sith resurrect Palpatine and he send Snoke into the world to act for him. Snoke and Dooku are playing the same role. Rey is the Force balancing the return of Palpatine. It does nothing to alter the OT or PT. That story stays intact. Palpatine was dead and the force was in balance. Anakin was the Chosen One. Rey is a new chosen one to reseal what the Sith had reopened.

And if you don’t think that works, you aren’t really aware of the myths that lie at the heart of Star Wars. Myths that always had sequels for a new generation of listeners. Books and movies have always had sequels. Often by the original creator, but often by others. And not every story was written in order. Some jump around. Hornblower and Narnia for instance. And frankly, everything I’ve heard about Lucas’s plan for the sequel has not sounded like a great idea. Sequels can build on the original and even restart things thought settled in the original. That is what sequels do.

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Exactly. Nothing ever lasts forever. This criticism can be applied to Captain America: Civil War, Logan and Infinity War, which “undo” victories from their respective predecessors.

Eventually, the universe is going to die from heat death, but you (as in the characters, in-universe) gotta make the most of it.

EDIT: Clarified.

Rey Skywalker: An Arc of Self-Worth

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Making the most of it is why I was disappointed with the ST. I’m not going to argue about what undermines whoever’s character arc (which might be me missing the whole point of this particular thread), but what I felt was unfulfilled, not disrespected. It’s like one step forward two steps back but I never got to see the step forward, the plot effectively DOES reset the environment to OT status quo and discussing it as a good, bad, or inevitable thing still says to me we agree on that. Hate the pot hole, not the plot hole! The ST exhausts my patience I feel like I’m walking in place, what’s undermined is my investment, Luke already acted out of love instead of hate, learning the lessons of the previous generation’s failures, what does the ST build off of? All that our heroes did wrong happened frustratingly off screen for the purposes of establishing the ST plot line and we’re lucky every so often to see a hint in a flashback of how we got there, Palpatine is a symptom of this, his return is not exactly a mistake, but it’s a crutch, for all that was swept under the rug until then. People are upset with the literal undoing of the characters accomplishments for where it leaves us plot wise, a smaller group might disagree with how it applies thematically and that’s fine to discuss til you’re blue in the face. But what I care most about is the progression of events, they didn’t have a compelling enough reason to kick down the sandcastle only to rebuild it more or less the same way. There are other layers fine, but the world building, the central conflict, and its players all become limited to their most iconic elements. That’s why fans find it boring (and why it rubs off overly corporate to some). Inference inference but not drop to drink, a recycled journey I can’t sink into and discover. There is a lack of imagination, the universe has almost never felt smaller.

But that’s just my subjective perspective, and my explanation for the core complaint behind the mask of the criticism, why some fans have this feeling of “what was the point?”. I’m glad you got something you really liked out of the ST, Test, believe it or not we do have other members who feel the same and greatly enjoyed TROS. I even have fun watching it, but it never came together for me personally, and worse could have more cleverly connected to a more cohesive and rewarding whole between the saga, and itself as its own trilogy, had they only taken more time at the writing stage.

BedeHistory731 said:

Star Wars was a mistake. Just, the whole franchise was a mistake. I side more with TestingOuttheTest, but I stand by regretting the existence of this godawful franchise.

Jesus we really are in post SW group therapy, huh.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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TestingOutTheTest said:

SparkySywer said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

you’re somehow fine with it in Civil War, Logan and Infinity War.

Why would you just assert that

I’ll give you a hint: people compare Rey to Anakin and Luke in “Mary Sue” discussions.

People do that because there’s, like, a lot of overlap between them. You know, being part of the same series and such. Hell, that isn’t even a really good argument anyway, because maybe they do think Anakin and Luke are Mary Sues, too. You can’t assume that they don’t.

If someone said Rey was a Mary Sue and I responded by saying “Uh… why are you okay with Mellori from Wizard101??? She’s no different from Rey!!” Okay, maybe they are okay with Mellori. Maybe they’re not. Chances are though the reason they’re not talking about Mellori is because she’s not remotely relevant to Star Wars. There’s a very high likelihood that they don’t even know who tf Mellori is, which turned out to be the case with Servii and Civil War, Logan, & Infinity War… he’s not an MCU/X-Men fan and doesn’t know or care about whether or not X undoes Y’s accomplishments in those movies.

Why are you even defending this? You asserted Servii is okay with something in movies he’s never seen, without any reason whatsoever to think he felt anything one way or another. It was a ballsy as hell thing to do and, shockingly, you turned out to be dead wrong.

BedeHistory731 said:

Star Wars was a mistake. Just, the whole franchise was a mistake. I side more with TestingOuttheTest, but I stand by regretting the existence of this godawful franchise.

Am I a hypocrite for posting this?

Death of the Author

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I think in hindsight i like Last Jedi the most because you expect Luke to be the hero, but all that stuff he says about the Jedi’s vanity, how the force is more than the Jedi. I also like how he threw away his lightsaber not because he is a coward but because he will no longer act out of anger, or use a weapon of violence.

Rey needs to find the strength to believe in herself, Luke was right she didn’t need him.

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The argument that everything the OT characters worked for has been undone is false. All they were working for in the OT is to bring down the Empire. There were no goals to rebuild the Republic, to rebuild the Jedi order. That wasn’t in the OT. Luke wanted to become a Jedi. Done. Never undone. He went into hiding, but he was still a Jedi. Leia led the Rebellion to victory and we aren’t even sure what all she did, but when we meet up with her again she isn’t just a princess in a Rebellion, she is a general in the new Resistance. Han got with Leia, had a son, broke up with Leia and is now on his own, which is more in character for Han that what he did in Legends post ROTJ. So nothing that these characters got in the OT has been taken away. Luke started a Jedi Academy that was destroyed and then went on a quest for answers and didn’t find the ones he hoped to. And they had to do it off screen because you can’t have a successful story that shows what they had and tears it apart unless you put it back together or give them something different and better. So the tear down had to happen off screen. Then we get to watch them fight and achieve something new. But the main focus of the ST was always going to be the new characters. It was never supposed to be the second trilogy for the OT characters. It was supposed to be the older actors in supporting roles to the new cast and that is exactly what we got.

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There were no goals to rebuild the Republic, to rebuild the Jedi order.

I really disagree here. The Rebels definitely wanted the Empire to be gone because they were tyrants. Of course they’d want something better in charge. Not that they wanted to rebuild the actual Republic.

Also, Yoda tells Luke to restore the Jedi.

And I’m speaking as the OP of the post who keeps saying that nothing lasts forever.

Rey Skywalker: An Arc of Self-Worth

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Servii said:

Jesus Christ, this is exhausting.

Usually, when I debate with someone, we eventually come to some sort of understanding, or at least agree to disagree. But I see now that that is never going to happen with you. We’re just going around and around in circles now, with you asserting your baseless conclusions as facts, over and over again. And frankly, I don’t want to waste anymore of my life talking about this with you, so I’m going to be blunt with you now.

What are you expecting to happen when you make these threads? Are you expecting to actually change people’s minds? Do you actually think you’re going to convert people to your way of thinking that this awful trilogy is somehow great if you do enough mental gymnastics for it? Or are you making these threads because you want to argue about it with people? Either way, all you’re doing is stirring the pot needlessly by talking about how much you hate legitimate criticisms of a movie. It’s bizarre, fanatical behavior.

I would love nothing more than to move on with my life and ignore the Sequel Trilogy going forward. As far as movies go, my mindset is to “let people enjoy things.” But that mindset has to be a two-way street. If I let people enjoy things, you have to let people dislike things, as well. That’s how this works.

I get it. You saw these movies in the theater. You loved them. A lot. But you’re going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people are going to dislike or even hate those same movies you love, no matter how much it pisses you off to think of that. You have to let that go.

And? What’s wrong with that?

The fact that you said this makes it clear that there’s no more point talking to you. You will never understand why people have a problem with this. Star Wars does not belong to the creators of the Sequel Trilogy. They merely had the privilege to play around with the world and characters that George Lucas created. The OT and Luke Skywalker are the heart of Star Wars. They were from the beginning. They always will be. If a future work made by different creators undermines that or steals away the original story’s significance in order to prop itself up, then it doesn’t deserve our investment. It’s bad fan fiction.

Enjoy the movies, though.

I thought your discussion was interesting to a degree. It appears you are unhappy you couldn’t change minds either. You make a sweeping assumption that the ST is bad…objectively. Not correct.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

There were no goals to rebuild the Republic, to rebuild the Jedi order.

I really disagree here. The Rebels definitely wanted the Empire to be gone because they were tyrants. Of course they’d want something better in charge. Not that they wanted to rebuild the actual Republic.

Also, Yoda tells Luke to restore the Jedi.

And I’m speaking as the OP of the post who keeps saying that nothing lasts forever.

Yoda never tells Luke to restore the Jedi. Yoda’s goal is to see Luke completely trained as a Jedi Knight. His task is to defeat Vader and the Emperor. Luke takes his own path to do that by redeeming his father his Anakin kills Palpatine. There is nothing discussed about the future. Not for Luke with the Jedi or with Leia and what will replace the Empire. That all happened in Legends. There is nothing in the OT that gives any goal behind the end of the Empire. That is the end game of the OT - the destruction of the Empire.

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Here we go again…

Also

There is nothing in the OT that gives any goal behind the end of the Empire. That is the end game of the OT - the destruction of the Empire.

The reason behind overthrowing the Empire is because they’re corrupt and tyrannical. Of course they’d want a ruling faction that isn’t corrupt or tyrannical.

Rey Skywalker: An Arc of Self-Worth

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NeverarGreat said:

It was Yoda’s dying wish that Luke pass on what he had learned.

“There is another Sky… wal… ker.”

He was to find the other Skywalker and pass on what he had learned. No one else was specified. But prior to that the focus was entirely on defeating Vader and the Emperor. That was the endgame of ROTJ for Luke.

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That seems like a rather myopic way to view the conversation. The final few statements are broken into three distinct thoughts:

“When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be.”

“The Force runs strong in your family…pass on what you have learned.”

“Luke, there is another Skywalker.”

Each thought builds on the one before it, but it’s important to preserve the order of lines. Luke is being commanded to pass on what he has learned without first knowing that he has another living relative. It could be implied that Luke would pass on his knowledge to his children, or that his knowledge would lead to a ‘return of the Jedi’ in the galaxy like the title implies. Only after this order does Yoda drop the ‘other Skywalker’ bomb on him, so it stands to reason that this other would be among those Luke teaches but almost certainly not the extent of his obligation. I know I’d be pissed as a Force Ghost if my student just trained the secret twin and nobody else because of the letter of the order and not its spirit.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Palpatine did get his revenge and the entire Skywalker line failed and died.

Han and Leia had one son who died, Luke didn’t pass on crap except in Legends canon where he had a Son.

Take away Rey the adopted Skywalker and it isn’t really about the Skywalkers at all.

Anakin’s such a great chosen one he didn’t even kill Palpatine and end his reign, and his son turned out to be a failure by any standard, didn’t restore the Jedi. Even his daughter failed to restore the Republic.

Its all there except for the hope that Rey, Finn and Poe, aka the next generation will fix the last generations mistakes. Fulfill their hopes and aspirations.