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I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much. — Page 3

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Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

SparkySywer said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is about stopping their respective returns.

In the end, what that turned out to mean was “Kill Palpatine again because we didn’t do it last time.”

It’s still different from the OT. The “similarities” between ANH and TFA are also different. I’d rather take a natural progression of the story than just making the ST about some random shit with Snoke and Kylo Ren or Thrawn or Maul or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatever.

Thrawn as the villain would have made perfect sense as a natural progression for the post-RotJ era. Having a new Imperial leader emerge in the power vacuum, one who isn’t a Sith, who takes control of the shattered Empire makes perfect sense and wouldn’t undermine the OT.

Palpatine being secretly alive for the whole 30 year gap and having his pickled Snokes in jars is out of left field and is not a natural progression. It renders the OT irrelevant, and makes the Skywalkers irrelevant in their own saga. The fact that Palpatine canonically saw Vader’s betrayal coming and was prepared for it is ridiculous on its own.

Also, let’s not kid ourselves here. TFA is extremely derivative to the point of near plagiarism. The script was rushed out very quickly with the “soft reboot” approach in mind.

Having Thrawn would’ve made the ST disconnect from the PT and OT, unlike Palpatine. Stopping Palps’ return is a natural progression that lines up with the previous two trilogies and ties the saga together. Imagine if Voldemort was killed off in Book 5 and Snape took his role for the final two. There would be no consistent overarching villain. They wouldn’t feel like legitimate series finales to the other 5.

And no, Palps’ return isn’t out of left field. He has a desire for immortality, as established in Sith.

And no, Palps’ return does not ruin the OT. Anakin only did it to save Luke, and you’re somehow fine with it in Civil War, Logan and Infinity War.

And no, TFA is not a rehash of ANH. Yes, it takes similar elements, but that’s because it was necessary for the characters and story. For example, Starkiller is a way of showing that the FO is more advanced than the Empire. Kylo killing Han is different from Vader killing Kenobi - whereas Vader killed Kenobi specifically because he was a Jedi, Kylo killed Han because he didn’t want to be conflicted anymore but it didn’t work and traumatized him even more.

The fact that Palpatine canonically saw Vader’s betrayal coming and was prepared for it is ridiculous on its own.

By that logic, the Holdo maneuver is perfectly explained by the shield things or whatever in TLJ’s novelization. We’re judging the movies on their own merits.

That’s a little less compelling than the way you describe it.

Ah, yes, making sure that the personification of the metaphor for the current generation being affected by and facing the same struggles and battles as the previous one is gone once and for all is not compelling. Ah, yes, the new generation facing the same threats as before and defeating them in their own way or with the right lessons learned or whatever shit happens is not compelling.

Except what reason do we have to believe that Palpatine is gone for good this time? At least Dark Empire, for all its issues, bothered to explain how the heroes were able to prevent Palpatine’s return in future stories, ensuring that he could never come back to life. After TRoS, though, what is there to stop Palpatine from just possessing a new body somewhere else? Is he going to be like Sigma from Mega Man X and just keep coming back over and over again until it becomes comical?

Rey didn’t kill Palpatine in hatred. That’s the point. She even says as much earlier: “All you want for me is to hate. But I won’t. Not even you.”

Rey Skywalker: An Arc of Self-Worth

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Having Thrawn would’ve made the ST disconnect from the PT and OT, unlike Palpatine. Stopping Palps’ return is a natural progression that lines up with the previous two trilogies and ties the saga together. Imagine if Voldemort was killed off in Book 5 and Snape took his role for the final two. There would be no consistent overarching villain. They wouldn’t feel like legitimate series finales to the other 5.

Then they shouldn’t have made a Sequel Trilogy. The saga already had an ending. It was called RotJ. If the only way they could think of to make the ST feel connected to the first 6 movies was to bring Palpatine back, then they just shouldn’t have bothered, since they had nothing to contribute.

In any case, it would have been better to bring in a new villain like Thrawn, one who’s imposing without being so powerful as to upstage the original villains, than to dig up the old villain to upstage himself. Have the ST act as more of an epilogue to the saga rather than trying to one-up what came before.

And no, Palps’ return does not ruin the OT. Anakin only did it to save Luke, and you’re somehow fine with it in Civil War, Logan and Infinity War.

I haven’t watched any of those three movies. I’m not a Marvel guy. But what you’re using here is Whataboutism. Just because the same issue might be present in those other movies doesn’t excuse the issue in the Sequel Trilogy. Other films having the same problem doesn’t make it okay.

From Anakin’s perspective, yes, he was killing Palpatine to save Luke. But from a broader saga perspective, it marked the destruction of the Sith and the restoration of the Jedi. Changing that moment to being just a little inconvenient speed bump in Palpatine’s plans was stupid and undercutting of the original story.

And no, TFA is not a rehash of ANH. Yes, it takes similar elements, but that’s because it was necessary for the characters and story. For example, Starkiller is a way of showing that the FO is more advanced than the Empire.

Why are they so much more advanced? How did they get that way? Why does the Republic not consider them a threat?

And no, nothing that they recycled was “necessary” to the story. JJ made clear in the commentary and interviews for TFA that he wanted to bring all these familiar elements back (desert planet, new Death Star, Cantina, Stormtroopers, Rebels, old ship designs) because they were familiar to the audience, and would be registered by viewers as quintessential “Star Wars” imagery. It had nothing to do with the story or characters.

Kylo killing Han is different from Vader killing Kenobi - whereas Vader killed Kenobi specifically because he was a Jedi, Kylo killed Han because he didn’t want to be conflicted anymore but it didn’t work and traumatized him >even more.

I will agree with you that the two deaths are different, since Obi-Wan’s death was far better. Han’s death was pointless and disrespectful. Having Han fail to save his son, then just get stabbed and falling (as a CGI corpse) down a bottomless pit was terrible. The screenwriters definitely intended the deaths to parallel each other, though. There’s no point denying that. Particularly in their placement in the story and in the way they affected the protagonist witnessing the death.

The fact that Palpatine canonically saw Vader’s betrayal coming and was prepared for it is ridiculous on its own.

By that logic, the Holdo maneuver is perfectly explained by the shield things or whatever in TLJ’s novelization. We’re judging the movies on their own merits.

Of course, any explanation for Palpatine’s return is better than the absolute nonsensical drivel the movie gives us. TRoS doesn’t even try or care. As bad as the canon explanation is, I’d rather take a bad explanation over no explanation. I’m doing the movie a favor by including out-of-movie sources that try to prop the movie up, since it really can’t stand on its own merits.

That’s a little less compelling than the way you describe it.

Ah, yes, making sure that the personification of the metaphor for the current generation being affected by and facing the same struggles and battles as the previous one is gone once and for all is not compelling. Ah, yes, the new generation facing the same threats as before and defeating them in their own way or with the right lessons learned or whatever shit happens is not compelling.

Except what reason do we have to believe that Palpatine is gone for good this time? At least Dark Empire, for all its issues, bothered to explain how the heroes were able to prevent Palpatine’s return in future stories, ensuring that he could never come back to life. After TRoS, though, what is there to stop Palpatine from just possessing a new body somewhere else? Is he going to be like Sigma from Mega Man X and just keep coming back over and over again until it becomes comical?

Rey didn’t kill Palpatine in hatred. That’s the point. She even says as much earlier: “All you want for me is to hate. But I won’t. Not even you.”

You’re missing the point. Palpatine’s spirit is still out there. They just destroyed his body again, like in RotJ. So what give TRoS’s ending any more finality than RotJ’s ending?

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Testing, could you stop beating us over the head with the same talking points you’ve scavenged from Reddit? This is a small board, everyone has had a chance to see what you have to say. I don’t like the Marvel movies either you’re treating everyone here like a hivemind when it doesn’t even apply it’s very condescending.

TestingOutTheTest said:

@act on instinct When does ANH establish that?

To answer your question, while ESB has Cloud City operating outside of the Empire (before Han and co. led them there) we can infer from ANH alone the Empire is still not in full control of the galaxy by the construction of the Death Star, without it the Empire was still playing games with the senate. Deleted scenes has Biggs spell it out for Luke and the audience, but Tarkin establishes how important the station is during the imperial briefing scene, they were losing ground as the rebellion was gaining sympathizers and were hanging their hopes on the Death Star to control systems through fear. Then before the destruction of Alderaan we have this exchange:

TARKIN: Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.

LEIA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems
will slip through your fingers.

TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station.

Further context fills us in on just how brand new some of these developments are. At best this seems to put us in the same place we were in TLJ. Of course, if a status quo reset isn’t a problem for you that’s all a big “who cares”, but to say it’s not feels like splitting hairs.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Servii said:

Having Thrawn would’ve made the ST disconnect from the PT and OT, unlike Palpatine. Stopping Palps’ return is a natural progression that lines up with the previous two trilogies and ties the saga together. Imagine if Voldemort was killed off in Book 5 and Snape took his role for the final two. There would be no consistent overarching villain. They wouldn’t feel like legitimate series finales to the other 5.

Then they shouldn’t have made a Sequel Trilogy. The saga already had an ending. It was called RotJ. If the only way they could think of to make the ST feel connected to the first 6 movies was to bring Palpatine back, then they just shouldn’t have bothered, since they had nothing to contribute.

Except it DOES contribute. The PT is about his rise. The OT is about his fall. The ST is about stopping him from reclaiming the galaxy before it’s too late.

And no, Palps’ return does not ruin the OT. Anakin only did it to save Luke, and you’re somehow fine with it in Civil War, Logan and Infinity War.

Oh. You’re a r/moviescirclejerk user. That explains a lot.

I haven’t watched any of those three movies. I’m not a Marvel guy. But what you’re using here is Whataboutism. Just because the same issue might be present in those other movies doesn’t excuse the issue in the Sequel Trilogy. Other films having the same problem doesn’t make it okay.

Do you people not understand that everything is temporary? You really think the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever?

From Anakin’s perspective, yes, he was killing Palpatine to save Luke. But from a broader saga perspective, it marked the destruction of the Sith and the restoration of the Jedi. Changing that moment to being just a little inconvenient speed bump in Palpatine’s plans was stupid and undercutting of the original story.

No, it wasn’t. It allowed the new generation of heroes to prepare and defeat Palpatine once and for all, and allowed the Skywalkers’ legacy to live on. It also allowed more opportunities for character development.

And no, TFA is not a rehash of ANH. Yes, it takes similar elements, but that’s because it was necessary for the characters and story. For example, Starkiller is a way of showing that the FO is more advanced than the Empire.

Why are they so much more advanced? How did they get that way?

Do you not realize the Empire is capable of building planet-destroyers? They took the next step by strip-mining Starkiller and putting a cannon into it.

Why does the Republic not consider them a threat?

Except they do. Hence why they support the Resistance. It’s just that they refused to militarize because they became the Empire because they militarized in AotC. Remember, they had no military before AotC. They inferred that demilitarizing would make sure they never become another Empire.

And no, nothing that they recycled was “necessary” to the story. JJ made clear in the commentary and interviews for TFA that he wanted to bring all these familiar elements back (desert planet, new Death Star, Cantina, Stormtroopers, Rebels, old ship designs) because they were familiar to the audience, and would be registered by viewers as quintessential “Star Wars” imagery. It had nothing to do with the story or characters.

Except they do play a role. Jakku is a desert planet to visualize the hell Rey’s going through. Any story with any Imperial remnants were always going to have stormtroopers. The Resistance had no reason to improve the X-Wings.

Kylo killing Han is different from Vader killing Kenobi - whereas Vader killed Kenobi specifically because he was a Jedi, Kylo killed Han because he didn’t want to be conflicted anymore but it didn’t work and traumatized him >even more.

I will agree with you that the two deaths are different, since Obi-Wan’s death was far better. Han’s death was pointless and disrespectful. Having Han fail to save his son, then just get stabbed and falling (as a CGI corpse) down a bottomless pit was terrible. The screenwriters definitely intended the deaths to parallel each other, though. There’s no point denying that. Particularly in their placement in the story and in the way they affected the protagonist witnessing the death.

Except Han’s death WASN’T pointless. It was the thing that scarred Kylo for life and led up to his redemption in TROS. It was one of the things that allowed Rey to defeat him, alongside his injury.

The fact that Palpatine canonically saw Vader’s betrayal coming and was prepared for it is ridiculous on its own.

By that logic, the Holdo maneuver is perfectly explained by the shield things or whatever in TLJ’s novelization. We’re judging the movies on their own merits.

Of course, any explanation for Palpatine’s return is better than the absolute nonsensical drivel the movie gives us. TRoS doesn’t even try or care. As bad as the canon explanation is, I’d rather take a bad explanation over no explanation. I’m doing the movie a favor by including out-of-movie sources that try to prop the movie up, since it really can’t stand on its own merits.

Except the movie DOES explain his return. He simply transferred his consciousness into a clone. It’s implied by “I have died before”, and the fact alone that he survived IMPLIES he’s discovered the secret to cheating death that only one has achieved.

That’s a little less compelling than the way you describe it.

Ah, yes, making sure that the personification of the metaphor for the current generation being affected by and facing the same struggles and battles as the previous one is gone once and for all is not compelling. Ah, yes, the new generation facing the same threats as before and defeating them in their own way or with the right lessons learned or whatever shit happens is not compelling.

Except what reason do we have to believe that Palpatine is gone for good this time? At least Dark Empire, for all its issues, bothered to explain how the heroes were able to prevent Palpatine’s return in future stories, ensuring that he could never come back to life. After TRoS, though, what is there to stop Palpatine from just possessing a new body somewhere else? Is he going to be like Sigma from Mega Man X and just keep coming back over and over again until it becomes comical?

Rey didn’t kill Palpatine in hatred. That’s the point. She even says as much earlier: “All you want for me is to hate. But I won’t. Not even you.”

You’re missing the point. Palpatine’s spirit is still out there. They just destroyed his body again, like in RotJ. So what give TRoS’s ending any more finality than RotJ’s ending?

How do you know Palps’ spirit is out there? The only reason he managed to survive ROTJ was by transferring his spirit into a clone. He had no other by the time of TROS.

Rey Skywalker: An Arc of Self-Worth

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TestingOutTheTest said:

The Resistance had no reason to improve the X-Wings.

This is one of the most disappointing things you’ve said and lazier than I would expect from your usual arguments, can you not see that you’re making an apologist point here with little substance? The movies wanted X-Wings because they were a hit in the past with audiences, the ST had opportunities like this to expand the world and show off a new generation of technology but they decided market research was above something creative and original.

That’s the heart of a lot of these discussions, it’s the stagnation that frustrates fans who wanted to see where else the saga could go after the events of ROTJ, the galaxy can still fall under threat, a Skywalker can still be a dark sider, fragments of the Empire could regroup, but the movies hardly bother to play those out in a way that’s fresh or new, maybe on some technicality but it still feels the same. JJ could have established the Republic’s role instead of blowing them up, the rise of the FO could have happened less off screen. Palpatine’s grand plan and resurrection and reveal could have been compelling but instead it’s brushed aside, Kylo’s mask is restored with greater reverence.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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TestingOutTheTest said:

Oh. You’re a r/moviescirclejerk user. That explains a lot.

Oh. You’re a /r/saltierthancrait user. That explains a lot.

I browse a lot of subreddits, especially Star Wars ones. STC is one of them, yes. (I do apologize for the r/moviescirclejerk comment. That came off as needlessly mean.)

Look, you’re forgetting the main problem of all this. Palpatine came back. He was back for 30 years. The Empire came back in full force, so much so that they were even more advanced and deadly than before, as you admitted. Our heroes didn’t prevent anything. They failed offscreen, and so the new heroes were forced to come in and clean up the old heroes’ mess. The OT heroes, despite having succeeded onscreen during the OT, left behind a legacy of failure and abandonment. It’s not comparable to the PT, since the PT actually ended in tragedy, so it made sense for Obi-Wan and Yoda to look to the new generation to make right their mistakes and not repeat those failures. The OT then shows us the heroes succeeding, but the New Canon has everything get shot to hell just for the sake of setting up the ST. Now, the OT heroes have been retroactively demoted to being just the stepping stones for the “real” heroes of the ST.

All victory is temporary, this is true. The problem is allowing that victory to be completely scrubbed away through in-universe negligence and incompetence. By TRoS, there was nothing left of the OT heroes’ victory to be preserved. Therefore, the ST is not a story of preserving and preventing. It’s a story of the “real” heroes cleaning up after the previous ones, who were made foolish and incompetent to serve this newfangled story.

Why did the Republic fund the Resistance in secret? Why were the two factions seemingly estranged from one another? If there’s a resurgent Empire, clearly with malicious intent, that’s encroaching on Republic territory, kidnapping children to be soldiers, and building a massive, very conspicuous planet killer, then I think at least a small self defense military is justified. In fact, as long as the Empire still existed as a faction, even when they fled into deep space to regroup as the First Order, the Republic still should obviously had held onto some basic military force. You don’t lay down your weapons while the Empire is still out there gathering strength. That’s idiotic. Not to mention the Resistance is tiny, even measlier than the Rebel Alliance, despite being initially funded and supported by the dominant government of the galaxy. Why is that?

Except the movie DOES explain his return. He simply transferred his consciousness into a clone. It’s implied by “I have died before”, and the fact alone that he survived IMPLIES he’s discovered the secret to cheating death >that only one has achieved.

That’s not an explanation. “I have died before” and him being alive explain nothing. And besides, the immortality sought by Plagueis wasn’t possessing clones. It was maintaining life in a single body.

Jakku is a desert planet to visualize the hell Rey’s going through.

No, it’s not. It’s a desert planet because, in JJ’s mind, Star Wars protagonists are supposed to always come from desert planets, because reasons.

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Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Oh. You’re a r/moviescirclejerk user. That explains a lot.

Oh. You’re a /r/saltierthancrait user. That explains a lot.

I browse a lot of subreddits, especially Star Wars ones. STC is one of them, yes. (I do apologize for the r/moviescirclejerk comment. That came off as needlessly mean.)

Look, you’re forgetting the main problem of all this. Palpatine came back. He was back for 30 years.

I’m saying Palpatine didn’t reclaim the galaxy in the ST.

The Empire came back in full force, so much so that they were even more advanced and deadly than before, as you admitted. Our heroes didn’t prevent anything.

They prevented the complete takeover in TROS.

They failed offscreen, and so the new heroes were forced to come in and clean up the old heroes’ mess.

And yet the OT heroes DO overcome their failures. Luke becomes the legend he was meant to be and allows the galaxy to rise up on Exegol and defeat the FO across the galaxy. The Republic is inherently flawed, so the galaxy cooperates in TROS.

The OT heroes, despite having succeeded onscreen during the OT, left behind a legacy of failure and abandonment. It’s not comparable to the PT, since the PT actually ended in tragedy, so it made sense for Obi-Wan and Yoda to look to the new generation to make right their mistakes and not repeat those failures. The OT then shows us the heroes succeeding, but the New Canon has everything get shot to hell just for the sake of setting up the ST. Now, the OT heroes have been retroactively demoted to being just the stepping stones for the “real” heroes of the ST.

All victory is temporary, this is true. The problem is allowing that victory to be completely scrubbed away through in-universe negligence and incompetence. By TRoS, there was nothing left of the OT heroes’ victory to be preserved. Therefore, the ST is not a story of preserving and preventing. It’s a story of the “real” heroes cleaning up after the previous ones, who were made foolish and incompetent to serve this newfangled story.

And? What’s wrong with paving the way for new heroes?

Why did the Republic fund the Resistance in secret? Why were the two factions seemingly estranged from one another? If there’s a resurgent Empire, clearly with malicious intent, that’s encroaching on Republic territory, kidnapping children to be soldiers, and building a massive, very conspicuous planet killer, then I think at least a small self defense military is justified. In fact, as long as the Empire still existed as a faction, even when they fled into deep space to regroup as the First Order, the Republic still should obviously had held onto some basic military force. You don’t lay down your weapons while the Empire is still out there gathering strength. That’s idiotic.

Reread my point: “It’s just that they refused to militarize because they became the Empire because they militarized in AotC. Remember, they had no military before AotC. They inferred that demilitarizing would make sure they never become another Empire.”

Not to mention the Resistance is tiny, even measlier than the Rebel Alliance, despite being initially funded and supported by the dominant government of the galaxy. Why is that?

I never said they were funded.

Except the movie DOES explain his return. He simply transferred his consciousness into a clone. It’s implied by “I have died before”, and the fact alone that he survived IMPLIES he’s discovered the secret to cheating death >that only one has achieved.

That’s not an explanation. “I have died before” and him being alive explain nothing.

Dude, they imply he’s survived death in ROTJ, backed by ROTJ literally showing us that he did blow up twice.

And besides, the immortality sought by Plagueis wasn’t possessing clones. It was maintaining life in a single body.

Do you really think “To cheat death is an ability only one had achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret” referred to Plagueis?

Jakku is a desert planet to visualize the hell Rey’s going through.

No, it’s not. It’s a desert planet because, in JJ’s mind, Star Wars protagonists are supposed to always come from desert planets, because reasons.

Stories tend to convey unintended meaning all the time.

Rey Skywalker: An Arc of Self-Worth

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ST’s storytelling problem for me is exactly the way it coneys information, style over substance and the style is like a corporate tribute album to the band I actually like, the most compelling pieces are left to my imagination. Even more frustrating are when fresh elements do come along, like Finn, but get so bogged down by all the tail chasing as the trilogy tries to figure out its own plot we never get to see his unique potential fully blossom. Just another vague throw the crowd a bone force sensitivity dangling carrot to make up for a sidelined cast member, and that was one of the main new guys! Phasma suffers a similar hollow fate with a failure to launch and character development largely left on the cutting room floor, with such a high caliber actress to boot. So we aren’t just all OT fans whining that Luke didn’t steal the show, the ST moves so slick and fast nothing happens, but also everything happens, it relies on fine print and meaningless quick fix patchwork like dyads in the force to wrap itself up. Call me picky but my bar for the ST was somewhere above barely coherent.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I’m saying Palpatine didn’t reclaim the galaxy in the ST.

He did. The First Order was essentially a puppet state to Palpatine, and the First Order effectively controlled the galaxy, so yes, he did.

They prevented the complete takeover in TROS.

The takeover had already happened. The First Order was already in power.

And yet the OT heroes DO overcome their failures. Luke becomes the legend he was meant to be and allows the galaxy to rise up on Exegol and defeat the FO across the galaxy. The Republic is inherently flawed, so the galaxy >cooperates in TROS.

Han dies a failure. His death is purely in service to Kylo’s arc. Luke commits suicide by trolling his nephew from a remote location. Leia dies to send a message to Ben that somehow redeems him, and Ben then proceeds to contribute nothing for the rest of the film besides reviving Rey.

The “legend” of Luke’s actions on Crait is ridiculous. How did the story spread? How would people even make sense of what happened there? Luke taunts Kylo, then disappears. This action is just the bare minimum to keep the Resistance alive, which Luke should have been helping from the start. It does not excuse his abandonment of his family and the galaxy in the hands of a monster he helped create.

And why do the people of the galaxy only show up to help when Lando convinces them? Were they already organized and ready to fight? If so, why weren’t we following that resistance instead of this little measly one. Or did they just wait a year after Luke’s death for no reason?

And? What’s wrong with paving the way for new heroes?

Paving the way for new heroes shouldn’t come at the needless expense of the old heroes. That’s bad storytelling.

Reread my point: “It’s just that they refused to militarize because they became the Empire because they militarized in AotC. Remember, they had no military before AotC. They inferred that demilitarizing would make sure >they never become another Empire.”

Except the Republic knows that the Empire still exists, is still out there somewhere gathering strength, and is still entirely hostile. When there is a large, looming hostile faction beyond your borders that fully intends to reclaim its territory from you and destroy you, total demilitarization is suicide.

Dude, they imply he’s survived death in ROTJ, backed by ROTJ literally showing us that he did blow up twice.

It doesn’t matter what you thought they were “implying.” Implying is not explaining. Throwaway lines aren’t enough for a huge plot point like this.

Do you really think “To cheat death is an ability only one had achieved, but if we work together, I know we can >discover the secret” referred to Plagueis?

Yes. That’s right.

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Servii said:

I’m saying Palpatine didn’t reclaim the galaxy in the ST.

He did. The First Order was essentially a puppet state to Palpatine, and the First Order effectively controlled the galaxy, so yes, he did.

“The FO was just the beginning” is vague. The line immediately precedes his offer to give Kylo “so much more”.

They prevented the complete takeover in TROS.

The takeover had already happened. The First Order was already in power.

I’m saying it wasn’t complete.

And yet the OT heroes DO overcome their failures. Luke becomes the legend he was meant to be and allows the galaxy to rise up on Exegol and defeat the FO across the galaxy. The Republic is inherently flawed, so the galaxy >cooperates in TROS.

Han dies a failure. His death is purely in service to Kylo’s arc.

It haunting him forever is not a failure. It leads to his redemption.

Luke commits suicide by trolling his nephew from a remote location.

What was Luke supposed to do? If he showed up on Crait, the FO would’ve annihilated him immediately.

Leia dies to send a message to Ben that somehow redeems him

Are you kidding? Ben realizes that Leia really did love him. And it was the Han hallucination that redeemed him.

and Ben then proceeds to contribute nothing for the rest of the film besides reviving Rey.

Saving Rey from becoming Palpatine’s vessel, reminding her she is valuable (fo’ anotha’ discussion…) and allowing the future heir to the Skywalkers’ legacy and future trainer of Jedi to live on is not doing nothing.

The “legend” of Luke’s actions on Crait is ridiculous. How did the story spread? How would people even make sense of what happened there? Luke taunts Kylo, then disappears. This action is just the bare minimum to keep the Resistance alive, which Luke should have been helping from the start.

Luke became a legend post-RotJ because him redeeming Darth Vader - the most hated man in the galaxy - broke the galaxy’s expectations. The galaxy thought he was infalliable. Him standing up to the FO, being “invincible” from their laser blasts and humiliating the Supreme Leader in front of his own troops is why the galaxy renewed hope.

They had to have received this info from either the Resistance or the FO troops whose leader was publicly humiliated.

It does not excuse his abandonment of his family and the galaxy in the hands of a monster he helped create.

Ah, yes, as if making up for your mistakes isn’t a concept that exists.

And why do the people of the galaxy only show up to help when Lando convinces them? Were they already organized and ready to fight?

They didn’t know where Exegol was. THAT’S THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE MOVIE.

If so, why weren’t we following that resistance instead of this little measly one.

Because they are the focus of the ST. Because they are the ones we have a connection to.

Or did they just wait a year after Luke’s death for no reason?

I’ve already told you that the FO isn’t doing too well. It’s literally Kylo’s motivation.

And? What’s wrong with paving the way for new heroes?

Paving the way for new heroes shouldn’t come at the needless expense of the old heroes. That’s bad storytelling.

Again, the old ones overcame their mistakes.

Reread my point: “It’s just that they refused to militarize because they became the Empire because they militarized in AotC. Remember, they had no military before AotC. They inferred that demilitarizing would make sure >they never become another Empire.”

Except the Republic knows that the Empire still exists, is still out there somewhere gathering strength, and is still entirely hostile. When there is a large, looming hostile faction beyond your borders that fully intends to reclaim its territory from you and destroy you, total demilitarization is suicide.

They’d rather avoid becoming another Empire.

Dude, they imply he’s survived death in ROTJ, backed by ROTJ literally showing us that he did blow up twice.

It doesn’t matter what you thought they were “implying.” Implying is not explaining.

How is implying not explaining? They’re giving us information without explicitly telling us that.

Throwaway lines aren’t enough for a huge plot point like this.

NO, HOW Palps survived is NOT a huge plot point. If it were, TROS would be another mystery-themed story like Gravity Falls. And did you really expect 10 minutes of prequel-level exposition?

Do you really think “To cheat death is an ability only one had achieved, but if we work together, I know we can >discover the secret” referred to Plagueis?

Yes. That’s right.

Dude, Palpatine literally explains to Anakin that Plagueis couldn’t cheat death but could only save others.

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It haunting him forever is not a failure. It leads to his redemption.

As I said. Purely in service to Kylo’s arc. Han was not sacrificing himself for his son’s sake. He was trying to bring his son back with him. Han is discarded so that his death can be just another part of Kylo’s journey as a character.

What was Luke supposed to do? If he showed up on Crait, the FO would’ve annihilated him immediately.

It was a choice between possibly dying by going to Crait himself, or definitely dying by projecting himself there.

Are you kidding? Ben realizes that Leia really did love him. And it was the Han hallucination that redeemed him.

Did she raise him in a way that Ben didn’t know that? What you’re describing is just headcanon. She literally just says his name. And of course, the idea of Ben hallucinating his father forgiving him is laughable.

Saving Rey from becoming Palpatine’s vessel, reminding her she is valuable (fo’ anotha’ discussion…) and allowing the future heir to the Skywalkers’ legacy and future trainer of Jedi to live on is not doing nothing.

Why is her life more valuable than his? All Ben amounts to in the end is just a lifeline for Rey. He has no agency as a hero beyond this. He doesn’t even have dialogue!

Luke became a legend post-RotJ because him redeeming Darth Vader - the most hated man in the galaxy - broke the galaxy’s expectations. The galaxy thought he was infalliable. Him standing up to the FO, being “invincible” from their laser blasts and humiliating the Supreme Leader in front of his own troops is why the galaxy renewed hope.

They had to have received this info from either the Resistance or the FO troops whose leader was publicly humiliated.

To someone unfamiliar with the concept of Force projection, the encounter would be completely nonsensical. And why would First Order troops spread a story in a way that humiliated their leader? The Resistance would try to spread it, but they’re just a shipful of people at that point.

Ah, yes, as if making up for your mistakes isn’t a concept that exists.

Except he didn’t. He did the bare minimum of what should have been expected him. He fixed nothing. He just stopped things from getting any worse after the situation had already fatally deteriorated.

They didn’t know where Exegol was. THAT’S THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE MOVIE.

Why weren’t they fighting the First Order all this time? An absurdly large fleet like that could have destroyed the FO decisively during TLJ. And if they were fighting, then clearly the “Resistance” we’ve been following is just a sideshow compared to the real war going on offscreen.

Because they are the focus of the ST. Because they are the ones we have a connection to.

If the only reason to focus on them is because of the audience’s personal connection to them, then I’d say the movies fail, because I never felt a connection to those characters, nor is the Resistance an interesting faction to watch. All of the interesting stuff was apparently happening offscreen.

I’ve already told you that the FO isn’t doing too well. It’s literally Kylo’s motivation.

That’s your headcanon. You’re thinking about this more than JJ Abrams did.

Again, the old ones overcame their mistakes.

The mistakes that were made up offscreen in order for the ST to take place. And no, they didn’t overcome them. Han was still a smuggler who abandoned his family, then got killed when he tried to reconnect with them. Luke was still a callous fool who abandoned the galaxy to the Dark Side, then died giving a diversion after most of the Resistance was already killed and the villains had basically won.

They’d rather avoid becoming another Empire.

The PT-era Republic didn’t have a bloodthirsty Empire breathing down its shoulder, clearly intending to destroy it. If they did, some sort of defense force made of recruits from different member worlds would have been a given. And when the Old Republic did have an outside, hostile Empire invading it during the KOTOR and SWTOR era, of course they had a military, because they weren’t fools. Even postwar Japan had a military for self defense. Throwing away your military while the Empire is regrowing makes no pragmatic sense. Not even real world politicians, for all their stupidity, would enact something as blind as that.

NO, HOW Palps survived is NOT a huge plot point. If it were, TROS would be another mystery-themed story like Gravity Falls.

It’s a freaking MASSIVE plot point. It has enormous repercussions for the story of the ST and the saga as a whole, and for the future of the setting since Palpatine could easily just return again. Just glossing over it and expecting the audience to not ask questions about it is ridiculous and insulting. You don’t even need to spend that much time on it. Just don’t beat around the bush with words like “Somehow”. Put some thought into it, and tell us how it happened.

Dude, Palpatine literally explains to Anakin that Plagueis couldn’t cheat death but could only save others.

That counts as “cheating death.” It’s just clunky dialogue. Who do you think he’s talking about? Who else would it be?

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Servii said:

It haunting him forever is not a failure. It leads to his redemption.

As I said. Purely in service to Kylo’s arc. Han was not sacrificing himself for his son’s sake. He was trying to bring his son back with him. Han is discarded so that his death can be just another part of Kylo’s journey as a character.

And yet it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller.

What was Luke supposed to do? If he showed up on Crait, the FO would’ve annihilated him immediately.

It was a choice between possibly dying by going to Crait himself, or definitely dying by projecting himself there.

Are you kidding? Ben realizes that Leia really did love him. And it was the Han hallucination that redeemed him.

Did she raise him in a way that Ben didn’t know that? What you’re describing is just headcanon.

Dude, the literal reason she sent Ben to Luke was because she saw him as another Vader. She overcomes this when training Rey, whom she knew as Palps’ grandkid.

Ben also felt betrayed by Han and Luke, as established in TFA and TLJ, respectively.

She literally just says his name.

Why else would Kylo stop there?

And of course, the idea of Ben hallucinating his father forgiving him is laughable.

Subjective.

Saving Rey from becoming Palpatine’s vessel, reminding her she is valuable (fo’ anotha’ discussion…) and allowing the future heir to the Skywalkers’ legacy and future trainer of Jedi to live on is not doing nothing.

Why is her life more valuable than his? All Ben amounts to in the end is just a lifeline for Rey. He has no agency as a hero beyond this. He doesn’t even have dialogue!

Ben is making up for his mistakes and loves Rey. He had no idea resurrecting her would kill him. By your logic, Vader had no agency when saving Luke from Palps.

Luke became a legend post-RotJ because him redeeming Darth Vader - the most hated man in the galaxy - broke the galaxy’s expectations. The galaxy thought he was infalliable. Him standing up to the FO, being “invincible” from their laser blasts and humiliating the Supreme Leader in front of his own troops is why the galaxy renewed hope.

They had to have received this info from either the Resistance or the FO troops whose leader was publicly humiliated.

To someone unfamiliar with the concept of Force projection, the encounter would be completely nonsensical.

Why?

And why would First Order troops spread a story in a way that humiliated their leader?

To undermine him and mock him. It’s like kids mocking their parents behind their backs.

The Resistance would try to spread it, but they’re just a shipful of people at that point.

And?

Ah, yes, as if making up for your mistakes isn’t a concept that exists.

Except he didn’t. He did the bare minimum of what should have been expected him. He fixed nothing. He just stopped things from getting any worse after the situation had already fatally deteriorated.

They didn’t know where Exegol was. THAT’S THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE MOVIE.

Why weren’t they fighting the First Order all this time? An absurdly large fleet like that could have destroyed the FO decisively during TLJ. And if they were fighting, then clearly the “Resistance” we’ve been following is just a sideshow compared to the real war going on offscreen.

Again, the FO is not doing well. And we literally see them standing up at the end of TROS.

Because they are the focus of the ST. Because they are the ones we have a connection to.

If the only reason to focus on them is because of the audience’s personal connection to them, then I’d say the movies fail, because I never felt a connection to those characters, nor is the Resistance an interesting faction to watch. All of the interesting stuff was apparently happening offscreen.

FUCKING SUBJECTIVE.

I’ve already told you that the FO isn’t doing too well. It’s literally Kylo’s motivation.

That’s your headcanon. You’re thinking about this more than JJ Abrams did.

Reread my posts. They’re backed by in-movie evidence.

Again, the old ones overcame their mistakes.

The mistakes that were made up offscreen in order for the ST to take place. And no, they didn’t overcome them. Han was still a smuggler who abandoned his family

Han NEVER abandoned his family. He and Leia went to deal with the guilt of losing Ben in their own separate ways. They say as much in TFA. It’s just he didn’t want to face Ben because he was blinded by guilt.

then got killed when he tried to reconnect with them.

Again, it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller. D’Qar would’ve been destroyed had it not been for Han.

Luke was still a callous fool who abandoned the galaxy to the Dark Side, then died giving a diversion after most of the Resistance was already killed and the villains had basically won.

And his actions inspired the galaxy anyway.

They’d rather avoid becoming another Empire.

The PT-era Republic didn’t have a bloodthirsty Empire breathing down its shoulder, clearly intending to destroy it. If they did, some sort of defense force made of recruits from different member worlds would have been a given.

The Trade Federation in TPM and the Separatists pre-clones in AOTC say otherwise.

And when the Old Republic did have an outside, hostile Empire invading it during the KOTOR and SWTOR era, of course they had a military, because they weren’t fools.

THAT undermines the PT. And THAT’S no longer canon, too.

NO, HOW Palps survived is NOT a huge plot point. If it were, TROS would be another mystery-themed story like Gravity Falls.

It’s a freaking MASSIVE plot point. It has enormous repercussions for the story of the ST and the saga as a whole, and for the future of the setting since Palpatine could easily just return again. Just glossing over it and expecting the audience to not ask questions about it is ridiculous and insulting. You don’t even need to spend that much time on it. Just don’t beat around the bush with words like “Somehow”. Put some thought into it, and tell us how it happened.

Dude, Palpatine has NO OTHER CLONES BY TROS, and Rey killed him for good but NOT IN HATRED. And if they DO bring him back post-TROS, it WOULD undermine Rey’s arc (that’s fo’ anotha’ discussion, too). Lucasfilm wouldn’t want to do that.

Dude, Palpatine literally explains to Anakin that Plagueis couldn’t cheat death but could only save others.

That counts as “cheating death.” It’s just clunky dialogue. Who do you think he’s talking about? Who else would it be?

Dude, “cheat death” refers to keeping yourself alive. Look it up. And he CAN’T be referring to Anakin wanting to save Padme. Otherwise Anakin would be upset that Palps lied to him about knowing how to save Padme.

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I know you didn’t ask me, Sir, but I am fine.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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So my arguments are airtight and incontestable, sweet thanks.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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And yet it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller.

He had already lowered the shields. Confronting Kylo was completely unnecessary to that.

Dude, the literal reason she sent Ben to Luke was because she saw him as another Vader. She overcomes this when training Rey, whom she knew as Palps’ grandkid.

This is never said in the movies.

Ben also felt betrayed by Han and Luke, as established in TFA and TLJ, respectively.

You know what I was saying about how the ST made the OT heroes into bad people and failures? This is partly why. Leia, Han, and Luke apparently did such a terrible job of raising Ben that he sees himself as a victim of their mistreatment. ST Luke and ST Han are horrible people.

Ben is making up for his mistakes and loves Rey. He had no idea resurrecting her would kill him. By your logic, Vader had no agency when saving Luke from Palps.

Except Anakin killed Palpatine, thereby saving the galaxy and destroying the Sith. Kylo didn’t do squat except give Palpatine access to that precious Force Dyad, then revive Rey. He could have been completely removed from the climax of the film.

Why?

Because there’s no rhyme or reason to what happened on Crait from an observer’s perspective. Kylo swings his saber at Luke for a while. Luke dodges. Luke turns out to be an apparition or something, then vanishes. And most people won’t even know that Luke died, so it’s barely even an heroic act, from their perspective. It would just be seen as strange by most people.

To undermine him and mock him. It’s like kids mocking their parents behind their backs.

Wow, what an intimidating faction. I can totally take them seriously as villains.

And?

And the galaxy’s freaking huge! A shipful of people can’t spread a story like that across thousands of planets. The scale of this world is simply too enormous for that to happen.

Again, the FO is not doing well. And we literally see them standing up at the end of TROS.

You keep saying they’re not doing well, yet have no real evidence for it. And what took those people so long to stand up? Why did they ignore the call for help on Crait?

FUCKING SUBJECTIVE.

The Resistance is freaking boring, dude. And the new characters are flat and poorly written. It’s as simple as that.

Han NEVER abandoned his family.

What movie were you watching? Han and Leia are basically divorced, and Han left Leia to go off and play at being a smuggler again, while she was left alone to fight off their son’s regime with her tiny army. Luke had just abandoned her, then Han abandoned her too, when she needed support the most. Han. Abandoned. His family.

Again, it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller. D’Qar would’ve been destroyed had it not been for Han.

He had already done that. Facing Kylo was needless for that goal.

And his actions inspired the galaxy anyway.

At no point is it said that the fleet attacking Exegol was there because they were “inspired by Luke.” That’s just conjecture on your part.

The Trade Federation in TPM and the Separatists pre-clones in AOTC say otherwise.

The Trade Federation was still considered a legitimate business within the Republic during TPM. And as soon as the CIS was formed, the question of forming an army to counter them was quickly raised. Because of the emergency nature of the situation, it made sense to use a clone army that had already been produced rather than raising one manually from member planets. The whole point of Palpatine engineering the founding of the CIS was to place the Republic in a no-win situation, where they had to militarize, but in doing so, they accepted the Clone Army, which was created under shady circumstances and ultimately answered only to Palpatine. That was the source of the downfall. Having a recruited self-defense force is not comparable to that.

THAT undermines the PT. And THAT’S no longer canon, too.

And Snap Wexley’s fart wedding is canon. I don’t give a damn about what Lucasfilm says is canon anymore. And neither should you, honestly.

And no, it doesn’t undermine the PT when there’s a freaking Sith Empire that controls half the galaxy, and is actively trying to control all of it. Something like that wouldn’t have been possible during the time of TPM. Which is why the Separatist Crisis was such a big deal. Because there had been a thousand years of peace.

Dude, Palpatine has NO OTHER CLONES BY TROS, and Rey killed him for good but NOT IN HATRED. And if they DO bring him back post-TROS, it WOULD undermine Rey’s arc (that’s fo’ anotha’ discussion, too). Lucasfilm wouldn’t want to do that.

As far as we know, Palpatine doesn’t need a clone, just any new body. And how do we know he doesn’t have another secret clone planet somewhere else?

Anakin killed Palpatine out of love for his son. Shouldn’t that have been enough, then?

Oh, of course. God forbid we undermine Rey’s arc. Undermining Anakin’s and Luke’s arcs is totally fine, though.

Dude, “cheat death” refers to keeping yourself alive. Look it up. And he CAN’T be referring to Anakin wanting to save Padme. Otherwise Anakin would be upset that Palps lied to him about knowing how to save Padme.

Let’s revisit the scene:

“Just help me save Padme’s life. I can’t live without her.”

“To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.”

He’s CLEARLY talking about cheating Padme’s death. And yeah, Anakin should have been mad at Palpatine for misleading him about it, but no one said the dialogue in RotS was perfect.

And Palpatine obviously isn’t referring to himself here when he mentions the “only one,” so by process of elimination, he’s talking about Plagueis. That’s the only person he could be referring to.

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Servii said:

Dude, the literal reason she sent Ben to Luke was because she saw him as another Vader. She overcomes this when training Rey, whom she knew as Palps’ grandkid.

This is never said in the movies.

Can’t remember the exact dialogue, but…

HAN: There was too much Vader in him.

LEIA: That’s why I had him train with Luke.

Ben also felt betrayed by Han and Luke, as established in TFA and TLJ, respectively.

You know what I was saying about how the ST made the OT heroes into bad people and failures? This is partly why. Leia, Han, and Luke apparently did such a terrible job of raising Ben that he sees himself as a victim of their mistreatment. ST Luke and ST Han are horrible people.

And they overcame their mistakes. Luke even apologizes to Ben on Crait.

Ben is making up for his mistakes and loves Rey. He had no idea resurrecting her would kill him. By your logic, Vader had no agency when saving Luke from Palps.

Except Anakin killed Palpatine, thereby saving the galaxy and destroying the Sith. Kylo didn’t do squat except give Palpatine access to that precious Force Dyad, then revive Rey. He could have been completely removed from the climax of the film.

No. Ben proves Rey is valuable by showing up to save her, and his sacrifice accomplishes what Anakin could not - saving a loved one from death.

Why?

Because there’s no rhyme or reason to what happened on Crait from an observer’s perspective. Kylo swings his saber at Luke for a while. Luke dodges. Luke turns out to be an apparition or something, then vanishes. And most people won’t even know that Luke died, so it’s barely even an heroic act, from their perspective. It would just be seen as strange by most people.

Except the FO shot down Luke and he “survived” anyways. He’s “invincible” compared to the FO. That’s what the galaxy sees Luke as - an infalliable legendary hero who’s perfect and invincible.

To undermine him and mock him. It’s like kids mocking their parents behind their backs.

Wow, what an intimidating faction. I can totally take them seriously as villains.

How does this ruin their intimidation?

And?

And the galaxy’s freaking huge! A shipful of people can’t spread a story like that across thousands of planets. The scale of this world is simply too enormous for that to happen.

And yet Vader’s redemption spread across the galaxy anyways.

Again, the FO is not doing well. And we literally see them standing up at the end of TROS.

You keep saying they’re not doing well, yet have no real evidence for it.

“The First Order will become a true Empire.” Kylo wants to hog Palpatine’s fleet for himself. They’re shown to be smaller than in TLJ.

And what took those people so long to stand up? Why did they ignore the call for help on Crait?

Because the galaxy was hopeless until Luke showed up on Crait. Even Leia lost hope at that point.

FUCKING SUBJECTIVE.

The Resistance is freaking boring, dude. And the new characters are flat and poorly written. It’s as simple as that.

Care to elaborate?

Han NEVER abandoned his family.

What movie were you watching? Han and Leia are basically divorced, and Han left Leia to go off and play at being a smuggler again, while she was left alone to fight off their son’s regime with her tiny army. Luke had just abandoned her, then Han abandoned her too, when she needed support the most. Han. Abandoned. His family.

He literally felt ashamed for Ben’s fall. That’s the point. He didn’t want to be reminded of that. His smuggling days were to cope with that guilt. And he overcomes it anyways.

Again, it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller. D’Qar would’ve been destroyed had it not been for Han.

He had already done that. Facing Kylo was needless for that goal.

Kylo killing Han was literally the thing that caused Chewie to shoot him and ignite the bombs. Had it not been for his injury, Rey would’ve lost and certainly wouldn’t have defeated Palpatine.

And his actions inspired the galaxy anyway.

At no point is it said that the fleet attacking Exegol was there because they were “inspired by Luke.” That’s just conjecture on your part.

It’s fucking INFERENCE. I’m looking at surrounding facts, putting two and two together and drawing a conclusion to them.

The Trade Federation in TPM and the Separatists pre-clones in AOTC say otherwise.

The Trade Federation was still considered a legitimate business within the Republic during TPM.

They were the ones invading Naboo and who have the droid army.

And as soon as the CIS was formed, the question of forming an army to counter them was quickly raised. Because of the emergency nature of the situation, it made sense to use a clone army that had already been produced rather than raising one manually from member planets. The whole point of Palpatine engineering the founding of the CIS was to place the Republic in a no-win situation, where they had to militarize, but in doing so, they accepted the Clone Army, which was created under shady circumstances and ultimately answered only to Palpatine. That was the source of the downfall. Having a recruited self-defense force is not comparable to that.

That’s not the point. The point is that an army made the Republic become the Empire.

Dude, Palpatine has NO OTHER CLONES BY TROS, and Rey killed him for good but NOT IN HATRED. And if they DO bring him back post-TROS, it WOULD undermine Rey’s arc (that’s fo’ anotha’ discussion, too). Lucasfilm wouldn’t want to do that.

As far as we know, Palpatine doesn’t need a clone, just any new body.

If that was the case, Palpatine would’ve possessed Snoke or contacted the Kaminoans to create a new healthy clone specifically for this.

And how do we know he doesn’t have another secret clone planet somewhere else?

How do you know he DOES? And he was overconfident.

Anakin killed Palpatine out of love for his son. Shouldn’t that have been enough, then?

Oh, of course. God forbid we undermine Rey’s arc. Undermining Anakin’s and Luke’s arcs is totally fine, though.

Except it DOESN’T undermine Anakin and Luke’s arcs.

Dude, “cheat death” refers to keeping yourself alive. Look it up. And he CAN’T be referring to Anakin wanting to save Padme. Otherwise Anakin would be upset that Palps lied to him about knowing how to save Padme.

Let’s revisit the scene:

“Just help me save Padme’s life. I can’t live without her.”

“To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.”

He’s CLEARLY talking about cheating Padme’s death. And yeah, Anakin should have been mad at Palpatine for misleading him about it, but no one said the dialogue in RotS was perfect.

And Palpatine obviously isn’t referring to himself here when he mentions the “only one,” so by process of elimination, he’s talking about Plagueis. That’s the only person he could be referring to.

Dude, Palpatine is reinforcing that Anakin needs to do his bidding. Replace it with “We need to take a shit on my cousin’s car” and it would still retain the meaning.

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HAN: There was too much Vader in him.
LEIA: That’s why I had him train with Luke.

The problem with this dialogue is that it implies that there was some inherent darkness in Ben from the beginning, while also implying that that same darkness was inherent in Anakin. It never was inherent. Anakin was an innocent who was corrupted, first by the trauma of his early life, then by Palpatine. It’s implied that Ben was maybe being telepathically corrupted by Snoke or Palpatine, but again, the movies are frustratingly vague about that, and that’s not what Han is saying here, anyway.

And they overcame their mistakes. Luke even apologizes to Ben on Crait.

Luke then spends the rest of the scene taunting and trolling him. “Every word of what you just was wrong.” and “See ya around, kid,” while messing with Kylo’s head. Luke was going out of his way to get a rise out of Kylo. He wasn’t acting at all like he was genuinely sorry about Ben, or trying to reach out to him emotionally.

No. Ben proves Rey is valuable by showing up to save her, and his sacrifice accomplishes what Anakin could not - saving a loved one from death.

Except the whole point of RotS is that you shouldn’t cling onto loved ones after their time in the world is done. You should let go of your temporal attachments once they leave your life, and allow those you love to return to the Force. Ben resurrecting Rey through the Light Side betrays a complete misunderstanding of the themes of the saga. Cheating death and resurrection of others was established as Dark Side knowledge.

How does this ruin their intimidation?

That means they don’t even fear or respect their leader. They’re like a bunch of gossiping children making fun of an impotent authority figure. It makes the faction as a whole look dysfunctional.

And yet Vader’s redemption spread across the galaxy anyways.

The Rebellion was much, much larger than the Resistance by the end of TLJ. Also, the ST’s handling of the legacy of the old characters is very inconsistent. Rey knows Han Solo as a famous smuggler, yet thinks that Luke Skywalker (who defeated Vader and the Emperor only 30 years ago) is a myth. Yet she somehow also knows about what happened aboard the Death Star and Anakin’s redemption. It’s sloppy writing.

Also, how are Luke’s odd actions on Crait somehow more inspiring than redeeming Vader and defeating the Emperor?

“The First Order will become a true Empire.” Kylo wants to hog Palpatine’s fleet for himself. They’re shown to be smaller than in TLJ.

That’s nothing. That’s not evidence. That’s just rhetoric. And nowhere are we shown that the First Order is smaller than it was before. You thought it was, and you’re reading that into the movie in order to make sense of it.

Because the galaxy was hopeless until Luke showed up on Crait. Even Leia lost hope at that point.

Don’t give me that. The entire galaxy just gave up after Hosnian? The whole galaxy was perfectly willing to just lay down and submit to First Order rule? Then the whole galaxy changed its mind because of some vague story from a handful of people of Luke’s actions on Crait? You hear how ridiculous this story sounds, right? It turns the entire galaxy, outside of the FO and Resistance, into some homogenous, cowardly hivemind that abandoned all hope because it needed to be taught to “believe in itself.” It’s childish storytelling.

He literally felt ashamed for Ben’s fall. That’s the point. He didn’t want to be reminded of that. His smuggling days were to cope with that guilt. And he overcomes it anyways.

And for years, instead of doing anything to help the woman he loved during this extremely difficult time in her life, he left her to fend for herself, just like Luke did. The idea that he spent years as an incompetent, petty criminal, feeling sad about losing the son he neglected, is pathetic for Han. It would be one thing if he had experienced a brief relapse into crime after his son’s fall, but he stayed in that lifestyle for years. Meanwhile, Leia powered through that shame and continued to be a responsible leader against the First Order. Leia acted like a responsible adult. Han did not. That’s the problem.

Kylo killing Han was literally the thing that caused Chewie to shoot him and ignite the bombs. Had it not been for his injury, Rey would’ve lost and certainly wouldn’t have defeated Palpatine.

Ah yes, that oh-so-important gut injury that Kylo sustained. If you rewatch that fight scene, you’ll notice that Kylo’s movement in combat shows no sign of that injury hampering him whatsoever. In fact, he was winning the fight until Rey just closed her eyes and believed hard enough. The injury never plays any noticeable role in how the fight progresses.

Of course, given what the bowcaster did in previous scenes, it should have just killed Kylo outright, but I guess consistency isn’t cool.

It’s fucking INFERENCE. I’m looking at surrounding facts, putting two and two together and drawing a conclusion to them.

What you call “Inference,” I call “making things up to cover for the filmmaker’s mistakes.” There is 0 evidence that the fleet was there because of Luke. None.

They were the ones invading Naboo and who have the droid army.

Yes, and it was an unprecedented situation during peacetime in the Republic, which was why the Republic was so caught offguard by it. But despite that, the Trade Federation was viewed as a legally accepted organization by the Senate. It was not an act by an outside, hostile nation state. It was internal conflict between members of the Republic.

That’s not the point. The point is that an army made the Republic become the Empire.

Holy oversimplification. You understand that a military existing doesn’t automatically transform a Republic into an Empire. It was a convergence of many different factors and crises engineered by Palpatine. The political message of the Prequels isn’t just “Having military bad.”

If that was the case, Palpatine would’ve possessed Snoke or contacted the Kaminoans to create a new healthy clone specifically for this.

You would think so, wouldn’t you? That would be a common sense approach for Palpatine. But TRoS is a film that doesn’t operate based on pesky concepts like “logic” or “common sense.” By suggesting those ideas, you’re already thinking more deeply than the writers did.

How do you know he DOES? And he was overconfident.

Palpatine sure seemed overconfident aboard the Death Star in RotJ. Yet TRoS makes clear that he had a contingency plan the whole time. Why couldn’t that also apply now? What gives TRoS’s ending any more finality than RotJ’s ending?

Except it DOESN’T undermine Anakin and Luke’s arcs.

Anakin isn’t the Chosen One destined to destroy the Sith anymore. Rey is. Luke isn’t the restorer of the Jedi anymore. Rey is. The entire purpose of those two characters now is just to pave the way for Rey, the true savior of the Jedi and the galaxy. The entire overarching story of the saga has been reshaped to really be about Rey. She succeeded where all her predecessors failed, and you can very well bet that Rey will never be supplanted or undermined in the same way that Luke and Anakin were. I guarantee you that.

Dude, Palpatine is reinforcing that Anakin needs to do his bidding. Replace it with “We need to take a shit on my cousin’s car” and it would still retain the meaning.

What?

It’s abundantly clear through basic interpretation of the text that Palpatine is referring to Plagueis as “the one with the power to cheat death.” Do you think Palpatine is referring to himself as the cheater of death? Then why does he say “but if we work together, we can discover the secret”? Notice the use of “We” in that sentence. And the word “but” implies that Palpatine is not the Death Cheater he was referring to, and that it’s something they will seek together.

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Servii said:

HAN: There was too much Vader in him.
LEIA: That’s why I had him train with Luke.

The problem with this dialogue is that it implies that there was some inherent darkness in Ben from the beginning, while also implying that that same darkness was inherent in Anakin. It never was inherent. Anakin was an innocent who was corrupted, first by the trauma of his early life, then by Palpatine. It’s implied that Ben was maybe being telepathically corrupted by Snoke or Palpatine, but again, the movies are frustratingly vague about that, and that’s not what Han is saying here, anyway.

That’s the point. They didn’t understand Anakin/Vader. It’s only during TFA do they realize it was SNOKE.

And they overcame their mistakes. Luke even apologizes to Ben on Crait.

Luke then spends the rest of the scene taunting and trolling him. “Every word of what you just was wrong.” and “See ya around, kid,” while messing with Kylo’s head. Luke was going out of his way to get a rise out of Kylo. He wasn’t acting at all like he was genuinely sorry about Ben, or trying to reach out to him emotionally.

What was Luke supposed to do? Let Ben enter the base and destroy the Resistance there?

He has no other choice. He’s focusing Ben’s hatred towards himself so he wouldn’t even think of going into the base. It’s the thing about the dark side. Replace Luke and Ben with ROTJ Luke and ROTJ Vader and it would STILL be the same situation.

No. Ben proves Rey is valuable by showing up to save her, and his sacrifice accomplishes what Anakin could not - saving a loved one from death.

Except the whole point of RotS is that you shouldn’t cling onto loved ones after their time in the world is done. You should let go of your temporal attachments once they leave your life, and allow those you love to return to the Force. Ben resurrecting Rey through the Light Side betrays a complete misunderstanding of the themes of the saga. Cheating death and resurrection of others was established as Dark Side knowledge.

By that logic, Anakin was selfish towards Luke. He should’ve just let Palpatine killed him.

And yet Vader’s redemption spread across the galaxy anyways.

The Rebellion was much, much larger than the Resistance by the end of TLJ. Also, the ST’s handling of the legacy of the old characters is very inconsistent. Rey knows Han Solo as a famous smuggler, yet thinks that Luke Skywalker (who defeated Vader and the Emperor only 30 years ago) is a myth. Yet she somehow also knows about what happened aboard the Death Star and Anakin’s redemption. It’s sloppy writing.

Imagine growing up in a hellscape where even if someone was inclined to give her a history lesson it is doubtful as to whether or not it was backed up with historical records. And we have people on our planet who legitimately believe that, for example, the Earth is flat.

Rey refers to Luke Skywalker as a myth because that is what he is to her… a figure from legend.

And that is not even considering that Rey believed the Jedi weren’t real, not everything else that happened in the original trilogy; in fact, she never treats Han Solo as a myth when she realizes she is already meeting him in-person at that point.

yet thinks that Luke Skywalker (who defeated Vader and the Emperor only 30 years ago) is a myth. Yet she somehow also knows about what happened aboard the Death Star and Anakin’s redemption.

Do you not realize the discussion about Vader’s redemption is in an entire movie AFTER that part in TFA about “Luke being a myth”?

Also, how are Luke’s odd actions on Crait somehow more inspiring than redeeming Vader and defeating the Emperor?

Because the FO shot him down and he “survived”. Then he undermined their leader in public.

“The First Order will become a true Empire.” Kylo wants to hog Palpatine’s fleet for himself. They’re shown to be smaller than in TLJ.

That’s nothing. That’s not evidence. That’s just rhetoric.

They’re context clues for inference.

And nowhere are we shown that the First Order is smaller than it was before. You thought it was, and you’re reading that into the movie in order to make sense of it.

Compare the TROS FO with the TLJ FO fleet. Rewatch both movies.

Because the galaxy was hopeless until Luke showed up on Crait. Even Leia lost hope at that point.

Don’t give me that. The entire galaxy just gave up after Hosnian? The whole galaxy was perfectly willing to just lay down and submit to First Order rule?

First off, they had a literal gun to their heads - Starkiller. Secondly, they NEVER helped, throughout the ENTIRE saga. That was the point of the fleet scene in TROS.

Then the whole galaxy changed its mind because of some vague story from a handful of people of Luke’s actions on Crait? You hear how ridiculous this story sounds, right? It turns the entire galaxy, outside of the FO and Resistance, into some homogenous, cowardly hivemind that abandoned all hope because it needed to be taught to “believe in itself.” It’s childish storytelling.

Handful of people who are literally the ones FIGHTING the FO. The same Luke Skywalker who is “infalliable” and did the impossible (redeeming Vader). We also don’t know how long it took for it to become common knowledge, se we can INFER that it took that amount of time.

EDIT: Imagine if the Sun was right about to go supernova. We’d lose hope instantly. Suddenly some aliens show up and rescue us so our species wouldn’t die off.

He literally felt ashamed for Ben’s fall. That’s the point. He didn’t want to be reminded of that. His smuggling days were to cope with that guilt. And he overcomes it anyways.

And for years, instead of doing anything to help the woman he loved during this extremely difficult time in her life, he left her to fend for herself, just like Luke did. The idea that he spent years as an incompetent, petty criminal, feeling sad about losing the son he neglected, is pathetic for Han. It would be one thing if he had experienced a brief relapse into crime after his son’s fall, but he stayed in that lifestyle for years.

Even SEEING Leia would remind him of his failure with Ben.

Meanwhile, Leia powered through that shame and continued to be a responsible leader against the First Order. Leia acted like a responsible adult. Han did not. That’s the problem.

You do realize they’re not the same person, right? And that’s the point. Han was acting irrationally. He needed to overcome that in order to face Ben on the bridge.

Kylo killing Han was literally the thing that caused Chewie to shoot him and ignite the bombs. Had it not been for his injury, Rey would’ve lost and certainly wouldn’t have defeated Palpatine.

Ah yes, that oh-so-important gut injury that Kylo sustained. If you rewatch that fight scene, you’ll notice that Kylo’s movement in combat shows no sign of that injury hampering him whatsoever. In fact, he was winning the fight until Rey just closed her eyes and believed hard enough. The injury never plays any noticeable role in how the fight progresses.

REWATCH THE FIGHT. Kylo Ren is literally not only BLEEDING TO DEATH, but is also moving awkwardly. Pay attention to his movement. Give it a couple of replays. He’s stumbling. He also clearly lacks focus because Han’s death, the blood loss and the pain is too much for him.

Furthermore, Kylo wanted to train Rey and was literally told by Snoke to bring her to him alive. He didn’t want her DEAD.

Of course, given what the bowcaster did in previous scenes, it should have just killed Kylo outright, but I guess consistency isn’t cool.

Kylo is Force-sensitive. Those stormtroopers were not and couldn’t be.

It’s fucking INFERENCE. I’m looking at surrounding facts, putting two and two together and drawing a conclusion to them.

What you call “Inference,” I call “making things up to cover for the filmmaker’s mistakes.” There is 0 evidence that the fleet was there because of Luke. None.

Only AFTER Luke shows up in TLJ is the galaxy inspired.

That’s not the point. The point is that an army made the Republic become the Empire.

Holy oversimplification. You understand that a military existing doesn’t automatically transform a Republic into an Empire. It was a convergence of many different factors and crises engineered by Palpatine. The political message of the Prequels isn’t just “Having military bad.”

The Republic didn’t know how big of a threat the FO was. It’s the equivalent of a fly. To them, the FO is an annoyance. They were never attacked, and that’s the point.

If that was the case, Palpatine would’ve possessed Snoke or contacted the Kaminoans to create a new healthy clone specifically for this.

You would think so, wouldn’t you? That would be a common sense approach for Palpatine. But TRoS is a film that doesn’t operate based on pesky concepts like “logic” or “common sense.” By suggesting those ideas, you’re already thinking more deeply than the writers did.

I’m implying the Sith essence transfer ritual can’t work with Kaminoan clones or Snoke. That it’d only work with actual people such as Rey.

How do you know he DOES? And he was overconfident.

Palpatine sure seemed overconfident aboard the Death Star in RotJ. Yet TRoS makes clear that he had a contingency plan the whole time. Why couldn’t that also apply now? What gives TRoS’s ending any more finality than RotJ’s ending?

Palpatine is not that great of a planner. In fact, he had no plan set in stone. He wanted to possess Rey from childhood, but her parents abandoned her and he had to target Ben. Then Ben redeems himself, and now he has to focus on Rey again. And when the dyad unites, he realizes it’s screwing up his plans and he has to kill them. But when realizing he can suck up their life force, he does so, and there’s no longer any need for the ritual.

Even in ROTJ, he decides to kill Luke when he refuses to turn to the dark side.

Except it DOESN’T undermine Anakin and Luke’s arcs.

Anakin isn’t the Chosen One destined to destroy the Sith anymore. Rey is.

He IS the Chosen One. The movie keeps bashing you in the head that Palpatine literally died before and Anakin did bring balance. It’s just that he’s letting Rey finish the job.

Luke isn’t the restorer of the Jedi anymore. Rey is. The entire purpose of those two characters now is just to pave the way for Rey, the true savior of the Jedi and the galaxy. The entire overarching story of the saga has been reshaped to really be about Rey. She succeeded where all her predecessors failed, and you can very well bet that Rey will never be supplanted or undermined in the same way that Luke and Anakin were. I guarantee you that.

And? What’s wrong with that?

Dude, Palpatine is reinforcing that Anakin needs to do his bidding. Replace it with “We need to take a shit on my cousin’s car” and it would still retain the meaning.

What?

It’s abundantly clear through basic interpretation of the text that Palpatine is referring to Plagueis as “the one with the power to cheat death.” Do you think Palpatine is referring to himself as the cheater of death? Then why does he say “but if we work together, we can discover the secret”? Notice the use of “We” in that sentence. And the word “but” implies that Palpatine is not the Death Cheater he was referring to, and that it’s something they will seek together.

I never said Palpatine DID know how to keep himself alive by the time of ROTS, just that he wants to know how to keep himself alive. And again, he CAN’T be referring to saving Padme. Notice how Anakin DOESN’T get upset with him for “revealing the truth”. This implies Palpatine is referring to keeping himself and Vader alive.

Rey Skywalker: An Arc of Self-Worth

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Jesus Christ, this is exhausting.

Usually, when I debate with someone, we eventually come to some sort of understanding, or at least agree to disagree. But I see now that that is never going to happen with you. We’re just going around and around in circles now, with you asserting your baseless conclusions as facts, over and over again. And frankly, I don’t want to waste anymore of my life talking about this with you, so I’m going to be blunt with you now.

What are you expecting to happen when you make these threads? Are you expecting to actually change people’s minds? Do you actually think you’re going to convert people to your way of thinking that this awful trilogy is somehow great if you do enough mental gymnastics for it? Or are you making these threads because you want to argue about it with people? Either way, all you’re doing is stirring the pot needlessly by talking about how much you hate legitimate criticisms of a movie. It’s bizarre, fanatical behavior.

I would love nothing more than to move on with my life and ignore the Sequel Trilogy going forward. As far as movies go, my mindset is to “let people enjoy things.” But that mindset has to be a two-way street. If I let people enjoy things, you have to let people dislike things, as well. That’s how this works.

I get it. You saw these movies in the theater. You loved them. A lot. But you’re going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people are going to dislike or even hate those same movies you love, no matter how much it pisses you off to think of that. You have to let that go.

And? What’s wrong with that?

The fact that you said this makes it clear that there’s no more point talking to you. You will never understand why people have a problem with this. Star Wars does not belong to the creators of the Sequel Trilogy. They merely had the privilege to play around with the world and characters that George Lucas created. The OT and Luke Skywalker are the heart of Star Wars. They were from the beginning. They always will be. If a future work made by different creators undermines that or steals away the original story’s significance in order to prop itself up, then it doesn’t deserve our investment. It’s bad fan fiction.

Enjoy the movies, though.